Quote: If I understand the timeline correctly, you had the affair during the time of the miscarriage.
It started after the birth of daughter #2, actually... which was 2 years after the miscarriage.
Quote: Rhetorically, let me ask you this. What would you be feeling right now if the roles were reversed, and your wife had done these things to you? Would you still be there?
I can't answer this because I've never been in that situation, nor do I want to take a guess at it because the point is moot and I'd be wrong. I fully believe that people should not comment on hypothetical circumstances in which they have not been personally involved in the past.
Quote: Your wife does not believe that you want her. She doesn't believe that you will stay with her. I would venture a guess that she has questioned her choice of fathers for her children - many times. I would also venture to guess that she has a well thought out exit strategy, possibly one that includes an affair. Chris, I don't even believe that you really want her
You're probably right on several accounts, but there's nothing that I/she/we can do to change the past and undo the harmful events. The only thing she (and all of us) can do is work on making the future better somehow. I've forgiven myself for the affair and am moving on with my life.
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that she's a WAW who will cut and run when the kids are older, especially since she has a good job and makes more money than I do. I don't believe that she still wants me either... it's just more convenient to stay together for right now. In 5 years, who knows.
I like reading about "TheNewChris" on his thread so it is all in one place.
I like Nop's advice. Granted TheNewChris has some valid feelings that he feels like Mrs. TNC is not doing enough.
TNC, My W had breast cancer (lumpectomy, radiation, drugs for 5 years) and was really down for almost 7 years.
TheNewChris wrote: << I fully believe that people should not comment on hypothetical circumstances in which they have not been personally involved in the past.>>>
To add to Nop's comment << What would you be feeling right now if the roles were reversed >> I say what about empathy for what tour W felt or is still fealing?
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm empathy: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and "vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another" of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner.
TNC, this is not fusion and I guess you do have some capacity for empathy. Does your W understand how much empathy you have for her many issues / situations.
Here is the link to the post that I derived the affair time line from.
I will get back to you on the other comments, but I am all out of gas for today as it is approaching 3 am....
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Did Finland freeze for the winter. Have not seen a post from you.
Just some location humor. People make comments about West Yellowstone Montana being the coldest spot in the US when they see the national weather. I tell them that where I live in Montana it is 40/50 degrees warmer than West Yellowstone. Sometimes, on rare ocassion it is warmer here than Orlando Florida.
Lou, I've been pretty busy, and had a small performance this week, so I really had to focus on that for a while. Nope, not frozen at all. Warm and grey and drizzly. And dark. the grey gets a little lighter 'round noon, but that's bout it.
H+ I seem to be avoiding each other... to be honest, I've just been trying to sort through my feelings this week. We had a conflict the other night, H went way over the top - backed me into a corner (something he's never done before) and told me the whole fight was my fault. After he backed down, I started acting like the wild animal cornered, 'till I was able to get hold of myself, and went out for a drive. Came back and calmly told H that he would never physically force me to listen to him like that again. H agreed, bu no apology.
I made an appt. with a counselor, won't be for a couple of weeks. She's very well respected here, not sure what her 'style' is, but at least it will be a chance to get some stuff off my chest, and maybe sort some stuff out.
Went out with some collegues last night, to eat and just talk. It was nice to enjoy myself!!
By the way, Lou, about weather - in the summer, Northern Finland is often the warmest place in Europe. Ok, maybe not often
First just wanted to say I've been catching up, reading everyone's threads, and it seems a lot of you have gotten somewhere today. Hope you all have great weekends!!!!!!
I had an interesting convo this afternoon, not with H.
We have a mutual friend about 10 yrs older than we are, she's known H for a very long time, they've 'worked' together on the music festival for about 20 yrs, she just recently got a new job as an administrator at the conservatory here in town. D8 had a lesson this afternoon, and I was feeling lousy - as she was having trouble getting speed + energy into her playing...and I know D8 - that of all things shouldn't be a problem. She was very tense, and I was feeling guilty again - thinking how things 'should' be, if I was home in the evenings, or H was more active...
So, I decided to go talk to our friend after D's lesson (D had a theory class) just to see if she knew of any 'gossip' (teaching spots are not easy to come by), thought it couldn't hurt for her to know I desperately want something here in town.
Well, as she had talked to H a week ago briefly, apparently she had an idea that something was 'up', and she asked how I was...I broke down, and we had a good talk. It was actually very good to be able to talk to her, as she knows H very well, and has known us since the very beginning of our R.
She told me that she remembers an incident right after we started dating, where H said something very rude to me with her and another friend listening, and they had taken H aside afterwards and said something. I told her that things had continued that way throughout our R. I said that I guess I was too in love to realize what he was doing in the beginning, or maybe I didn't have enough self confidence, who knows.
She told me that she had always thought that H was very lucky to have found me, she said that the change in H after we met was drastic. She also said it didn't surprise her at all that H was acting this way, how typical it was that men, and H in particular would just 'lock up' and refuse to admit their part in the problem.
I told her that I had to believe there was a chance that H would see, that I knew he was a good person, and that the last thing I wanted to do was to break up our family - but that I also felt I was getting to the end of my rope, and that I didn't know what I could do if H wouldn't admit his part.
It felt very good to be able to talk to a wise person who knows, and admires both of us - so I didn't feel like I was putting H down, just stating the facts. I hated telling her, because I know she cares about us, but I was very glad to be able to.
We discussed whether or not she should say something to H, she was trying to think if she had any 'excuses' to talk to him about something else, and try to find out how he was feeling. She did promise that she wouldn't reveal what she knew. We decided that might not be a good idea, unless something just happened to come up, and H opened up (something he might do with her of all people).
She knows too that H is a very quiet person, and really doesn't have anyone to talk to, and she agreed with my thoughts that H doesn't have a high opinion of women in general
So, what do I plan to do with this info??
Well, first, it did make me feel good to get some validation. I've really been all over the place about my own part of this, and it was nice to here that I am right in thinking H has been rude to me, and that I have given something to this R. That might seem obvious, but sometimes, you're too close to something to see clearly.
I also feel more strongly that H does need to bring his part to this, and that something needs to be done, and soon. There has to be some kind of change. I really wasn't sure how I felt about H this week - he really startled me with his reactions the other night - they were strong, even for him, and it did bother me more than a little that this seems to be escilating. While that might be a good sign - shows that H realizes I've changed, it also scares me to think how strongly he wants to hold on to the way things are. So it was good to hear me saying that I did care about H, and felt there must be some good in there somewhere, 'cause to be honest, I wasn't sure if that was how I felt.
I still feel in a sort of 'other worldly' state - though I've also been making a point in the past few days of keeping my PMA up. I thought I was, but after making a real effort - and seeing it reflected in the kids, it makes me wonder just how much it's been affecting me (and them).
I really wish right now I had family around - that we could spend time with them, that I could have some support in keeping things up here - as I can't really count on that from H's family.
FF< FWIW, you sound like you are in the place Jenny was right before her big break through, and not unlike some of the situations presented in PM either. Keep it up, it sounds like you are making excellent progress, and from what everyone has said the process of getting to a new level is not painless...it seems to be the pain that makes it work. I'm praying for you, I think you are on the right track.
Thanks for your encouraging words, I'm just not sure I agree with you . If we'd been talking, ok, but the only last real interaction we've had was the other night, when H got so upset. It wasn't a convo - I had tried to send my ballot express mail last week - only to find it in *our* mailbox Fri. afternoon...
H graciously got someone on the phone Fri, even though the post was already closed, and they agreed to send it by courier on Mon. He wrote out a letter for me, said this is if you need it, I would like an explanation, preferably written. I thanked him, told him I very much appreciated his help.
I went to the post + got it mailed, came back, with his letter.
H had a fit, he had expected that I would have left the letter, and said that he had demanded a written explanation. I told him I had appreciated having the letter with me, but that I didn't think it would have done much good for me to leave it - I was lucky I got the response I did, and that had taken quite a bit of 'forceful' explination of what customer service means (the post office just sort of shrugged it off, saying 'this stuff happens')
That's when he said that he was fed up - he had gone to so much trouble, and I had just wiped my a** with the letter. I sort of stood there, stunned, and he came down, pushed me when I tried to get away, and told me that it was my fault he had said it, since I kept asking him what he was saying (he was mumbling)
like I said, I started lashing out after that, 'till I caught myself, and went out for the drive, came back, apologized for misunderstanding about the letter (which I took to the post the next day), and said 'I will NOT be pushed'.
As I said, I'm not quite sure how to deal with him since then, though he seems to have calmed down.
In Jenny's case, it was her H that was coming out with similar things to what I said in my last post, in my case, it was a friend discussing H with me, I don't believe H is anywhere near ready to admit that about himself. I'm really beginning to wonder if he ever will.
I really wonder if I have any reason to expect he will...others have noticed him treating me this way since very early in our relationship - is it possible that at that point I had such low self-esteem that I was an equal in the relationship, and that I have grown since then? I do want to believe that H + I are equals, if for no other reason that I did choose to stay with him, but I really do wonder if he will be able to stand up to this. If I've in effect agreed to be treated this way up 'till now, why should he suddenly want to change? In effect, I'm asking him to change the whole dynamic of our R. I'm more than willing to admit that I've done my share to get our R to this point, and I'm willing to try to fix it. I just don't feel that H is ready yet to do his part, and he seems to lash out, hard, each time I ask him about this.
My theory?? Whatever resentment he holds against women in general, I become the universal 'Woman' when I call him on things, and I'm easy to lash out at, because I'm there. If he can 'generalize' me, he doesn't have to deal with me as an individual. I suspect it was easy for him to have sex with me when I was 'just' a pretty face; when I became W and mother of children, I took on too much importance to be treated as the generic 'Woman', and he doesn't know how to deal with the resulting conflict.
Even if I'm right, I have to wait and see if he realizes it himself, or whatever it is that's bothering him. I just don't know how long I can stand it.
It sounds like you are doing well. The 'comfort zone' will move eventually to your new life with boundaries.
I don't recall if you had made a list, but it is a good idea to make a list of non-acceptable behaviors from hubby. Keep it short and memorize it. Things are hard to recall in a heated moment.
Please keep posting progress. I have had little time to post lately, but I make time to read all the posts.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
. If we'd been talking, ok, but the only last real interaction we've had was the other night, when H got so upset. It wasn't a convo - I had tried to send my ballot express mail last week - only to find it in *our* mailbox Fri. afternoon...