FocusedFlutist wrote <<<I said it would be nice if we could have some family time, H accused me of turning my simple question into something more, I agreed that that's what it sounded like and stopped. This was kinda light friendly banter.>>>
FocusedFlutist: Do you think your H takes the banter as 1. transitive senses: to speak to or address in a witty and teasing manner) or 2. intransitive senses : to speak or act playfully or wittily)? as you put it
If he is hearing it the first way and you mean it to sound like the second way then you have miss communications.
I have this problem with my W. Sometimes it seems I have to explain what the word "is" means (humor about Pres Clinton). Simpler is better with us men, well that is what I read in a book. Maybe my W and your H fit the description in the book. Who knows?
<<<H laughed, and gave me a hug. The convo ended there>>> From what I rember, your H has a pattern of doing something like this (not answering your questions). I think you deserve an answer to a direct question like that. I know you do not want to start a fight with your H and understand why you left it at that.
If you said you were asking the question, not to put him on a spot so to speak, but that you were trying to make the relationship operate "smoother" and what ever answer he gave you, you would accept it at face value. Would that help you.
Also you might say "What are the top 3, nearly correct or approximate reasons you do or do not want to do X with me?" "They do not have to be perfect and I will respect them as your opinion at this point in time."
By him not giving you an answer, he does not have to be acountable for anything you just asked him. He can go any direction he chooses.
Kind of like, Today I want a black car, tomorrow I want a white car. But I am not going to tell you. You try to give him a gerrn car, a blue car, and a red car on different days of the week. You get it wrong everytime. I think a book called that a moving target.
I get something like this with my W when we go out to eat. She would say "it's up to you." We would pull into a parking lot ( or is that a car park in Europe?). She would start to talk about problems we might have eating there. I would drive to the next plase and she would come up with other reasons for not eating there.
Now I ask her to name her top 3 places to eat considering what we have to spend and told her If she did not pick "one place" and and I did pick "one place", she could mot make any comments about why that was not the right place to go.
Comment of mine about not having interest in Pro sports in general) I do not know who is going to win the world series, just hoping you get past first base and beyond with your H. I think everyone that wants an EC with a spouse should make a home run at least once a week, IUNWIM. Not letting you play the game for some technical (strict or legal interpretation)reasons SUCK BIG TIME! You deserve a grand slam
{{{{{FF}}}}} from a guy that gets to play ball at least sometimes.
Quote: By him not giving you an answer, he does not have to be acountable for anything you just asked him. He can go any direction he chooses
Once again, the hallmark of childishness is lack of accountability.
This reminds me of something I posted a while ago about my bf waffling when I ask him a direct question. He turns on what I call the "fog machine." I wrote:
Quote: I had tried to get him to tell me any specific behaviors that I did that caused him to label me that way. He couldn't or wouldn't come up with any but does this thing where he retreats in to very general, vague language and doesn't actually say anything. He becomes like a fog machine.... I told the C that I reach into that fog and try to get something specific to put my hands on, but I can't find anything... She said, "When he expresses himself vaguely like he does, it's his way of walking out without actually having to leave. He's physically there but not there at the same time."
When your H refuses to answer you, I think that's his way of leaving without having to go anywhere. It's certainly congruent with his tendency to be a loner.
Hi all, been working on D6's halloween costume as she has a b'day party to go to today.
OG wrote:
Quote: FocusedFlutist: Do you think your H takes the banter as 1. transitive senses: to speak to or address in a witty and teasing manner) or 2. intransitive senses : to speak or act playfully or wittily)? as you put it
If he is hearing it the first way and you mean it to sound like the second way then you have miss communications.
No, I do think H understood, that was a 'friendly' convo, as they come around here.
Giving H choices is not going to make it easier for me to get an answer. I have tried that. It's a little like a ball of string that's gotten completely tangled and everytime I think I've gotten all the knots untied I find another one.
NOPkins,
Thank you once again for keeping me on track.
Quote: Time for the another side of the 'stranger' question. If a stranger could observe your family as a whole, everything included (sex, kids, all interactions), what 4 points would be at the top of their list as needing the most attention?
Strange thing is, most strangers wouldn't notice anything, but I know what you mean:
1. H respects his W 2. H interacts more with kids (mom adds, works on ways of disciplining them, this wouldn't be obvious to outsiders) 3.H+W's SL (tied to no.1) 4. More cooperation from everyone in family life - H+W agree on methods of discipline, bedtimes, etc. and can discuss any problems in an adult manner.
Not sure if these are really 4 seperate things, they're all pretty tied in together.
This morning, I said to H that I knew of a way that would help me be more pleasant. I said that it was sometimes hard for me to be pleasant when I was doing all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, and doing the brunt of childcare. I said that him staying in bed on the weekend and then asking me to make him breakfast after I'd gotten everyone else's stuff cleaned up was rather stressfull.
I said if he wanted breakfast this morning, I enjoyed making it, but, he would come and eat with everyone else, and clean up afterward.
H 'what do you mean by cleaning up' M'putting the dishes in the dishwasher, sweeping the floor and cleaning the table.' H'Yeah, so it's back to this. I don't want to have to take all the dishes out of the dishwasher that are already there and start things over again' M 'Then don't' H 'What gives you the right to order me around, and you won't listen to me when I want to tell you how to put the dishes in the washer correctly' M'If it will make things better, I will stand there so you can tell me how to put dishes in the way you want, but I suspect this is another of your avoidance techniques. If you want to live alone with your computer, fine, but not in my bed. '
I don't remember specifics, there was a lot of wiggling on his part, sort of 'why do I have to' etc...Finally I said, I'm just asking for a yes or no answer. I also said that 'a no answer would indicate to me that you're not interested in being part of this family' H finally said 'yes'
He came down when I had made breakfast, sat down + got up again a couple of times to get things, finally sat and ate like a child who has been reprimanded by his mom. It wasn't pleasant, but I HOM, and stayed pleasant.
H got up to clean up, in a very dramatic way started emptying the drying cabinet (Finnish 'invention', sinks have a cabinet above them with built-in wire drying racks for dishes), and started putting dishes away, washing.
The kids had left some Legos on a small table we have in the kitchen for kids projects, etc. H got very upset, said to the boys who were still eating 'That's it, I'm throwing these legos away, you can go and tell the girls, and tell them that that is the end of the legos.'
I asked (finally got to) 'Is that an absolute? Or are they 'under arrest' for a certain time?
H got huffy, asked the boys to go upstairs and get the girls.
Then he started yelling at them about the legos. I let it go for a while, then came in when it had gone on for several minutes and was getting very loud.
'PLEASE STOP YELLING AT THE CHILDREN THAT WAY' (sorry folks, this does get messy)'IF YOU CAN'T, I WILL ASK YOU TO LEAVE AND USE WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY TO GET YOU TO LEAVE'
H had the sense to ask the kids to leave the kitchen, and we fought for several minutes. Stuff like 'Why do you have the right to tell me how to talk to the kids'
I yelled that I was not going to let him yell at the kids to the point of tears, that I would consider that abuse. H disagreed, told me to think about what I was saying, etc etc, all stuff I've heard before. I did tell him I would not be insulted.
This went on for a while, H almost at the point of tears. He finally said 'WOULD YOU PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE NOW!' so I came up here.
H came up a few minutes later to ask me why I had left hair in my joghurt container that I knew he would clean out. I said that I left it there because I couldn't get into the trash(as he was in the kitchen cleaning) and that seemed the best place to put it.
H answered that I hadn't really answered his question, but he would accept that.
I'm afraid I went downstairs again, and pointed out how I felt I had answered his question. To which H countered 'ok, then you didn't think'. I said once again that I didn't feel it was neccesary to insult me.
--------
I'm writing down everything, not so that you can get out a scorecard, and get into 'he said, she said', but so you can see what I'm dealing with, and help me to be more effective here. I got fireworks this morning, and felt like I got nowhwere. Maybe when the dust settles I can see some small movement...
H is back in bed, reading. I'm afraid he feels as though he's got all kinds of ammuntition for pushing me away, or at least feels righteous in avoiding me now for the rest of the day, and then being 'pissy' for the next few days 'till I apologize for raising my voice. I'm not apologizing this time. H wants everything nice and pleasant, but he doesn't want to put any work into making it that way.
you are dealing with such a big baby! I really don't get his agenda in all of this. (And thank you for the detailed description... your posts really are so clear and easy to understand.) He seems to be coming at you from such a primitive level.
He did seem to respond when you got right down to the wire and said you would make him leave, or when you told him that he had to come and eat with y'all. Even though
Quote: he finally sat and ate like a child who has been reprimanded by his mom.
What would happen if you edited him out of big chunks of your life? Stopped trying to please him or do things his way? I'm not talking about the silent treatment, but just cook, clean (I know you already do this ) without any interacting with him. You don't ask him for help, you cease mentioning it all together. You're not huffy or mopey, just neutral, and act as if you're suprised to see him there taking up space. Put the dishes in the dishwasher ANY G.D. WAY YOU PLEASE. Go about your housework as though he does not live there. If things get done, they get done your way. If they don't get done, they don't get done. If he throws a tantrum, say "You cirticism and insults have lost all credibility with me. I won't let you talk to me that way," and leave the room pleasantly.
I'm not suggesting you be ugly to him... it just seems like he escalates the intensity of your interactions over such minor things. If he criticizes you, say "I'm doing things my way. This is the way I like them." In other words, cease using him as a reference for what you do and why you do it. Stop trying to get him involved. It seems like he tries to get you to do things his way, and you feel that if you do it his way, he will be civil. But he should be civil anyway. In a normally functioning R, the partners pass the ball back and forth, but he seems unwilling to play by those rules-- so send him to the locker room! There can't be a game if the other team member refuses to play.
This reminds me of my stepgrandson when he was about 10. I stayed with them for a week a couple of years ago.
EVERY day when Z came home from school, his mom (my DIL) would ask him if he had homework. He'd say yes. She'd tell him to get busy on it. He would. Then she'd want to check it. She'd find something wrong. He'd get defensive and argue. She'd calmly insist that the teacher would not accept it that way. He'd argue some more and eventually be sent to his room in tears. EVERY SINGLE DAY. It was like watching reruns of the same episode of a tv show.
Finally, on the last day, I followed him to his room and asked, "Why do you put you and your mom through this every single day? It's like a script from a movie. She says this, you say that, and you wind up in here crying." Well, he looked up at me, and got this little evil twinkle in his eye, smiled, and said, "Oh it's kind of fun."
My mouth fell open. I couldn't help but laugh. I said, "You DEVIL child! So you CAN stop it if you want to? You're just doing this to get your mom's goat?" He nodded. By this time he was giggling. After all, it was also funny (in a warped sort of way) how his mom took the bait every single time like a trained trout.
Later I told her what he said, and suggested that she make the decision that the most intense interaction of their day was not going to be a fight over homework. (Besides the obvious fact that he wasn't learning to do his homework wrong on his own and taking the consequences at school.) I said, the most intense moment of your day with him should be something good, not a fight over something no one will remember in a month. (Every night when they tuck him in, his parents go in his room and they all sing together... it's very sweet. THAT'S what they'll want him to remember.)
Anyway, my point is, he seems to get off (literally) on starting a fight with you. I think HOY is the answer for now... don't take his bait. You can't win an argument with him because he doesn't fight fair. He turns into a child right before your eyes.
You ask if this is progress? Do YOU feel any different?
FF said: ------------ Is this really making progress? ------------
Did you start setting reasonable boundaries with your husband?
Did you stop him from being abusive toward the children?
I think that is a yes.
Making BASIC level changes in a relationship is going to cause difficulty. There is no other way around it. I think it is impossible to have real intimacy without respect in a relationship.
Until someone has established basic respect in your relationship, there is going to be no real healing or intimacy. I am sure that there are issues with both of you. Lessor or greater evil is not the issue as much as change in progress. Since you are here, you go first :-)
One thing I do suggest. If you are going to correct your husband when he is disciplining the children, do your best not to do it in front of the children. That causes the children to lose respect for him. There are exceptions of course ( the obvious ones). There is nothing wrong with interrupting him when he is yelling at them and asking for a private chat with him.
A good place for you to start is by showing him respect, NOT SUBSERVIENCE, but respect when he has something to say to you. That doesn't mean you have to agree, but being thoughtfully considerate of his concerns is a good thing. That is basic communication.
You also must realize that you are going to make mistakes as you amend your relationship. So be willing to apologize when you screw up and stand your ground in a loving way when you need to. That simple attitude change will set an example for your children and your husband, and engender respect as a byproduct.
Unless yelling serves some specific purpose in your home, then you stop doing it immediately and discuss why you think it is bad for the relationship, for the family, etc, and ask him if he is willing to work with you to get it stopped. Don't accuse.
Include your husband in the process as much as possible. He is not the enemy, just a participant.
You are doing fine and you can do this!
Why is it that the ladies around here earn the 'brass pair' award more frequently than the men?
:-)
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: What would happen if you edited him out of big chunks of your life? Stopped trying to please him or do things his way? I'm not talking about the silent treatment, but just cook, clean (I know you already do this ) without any interacting with him. You don't ask him for help, you cease mentioning it all together. You're not huffy or mopey, just neutral, and act as if you're suprised to see him there taking up space. Put the dishes in the dishwasher ANY G.D. WAY YOU PLEASE. Go about your housework as though he does not live there. If things get done, they get done your way. If they don't get done, they don't get done. If he throws a tantrum, say "You cirticism and insults have lost all credibility with me. I won't let you talk to me that way," and leave the room pleasantly.
I have done this. It was two years ago when I brought up the subject of us not ML for so long - the boys were a little older, and I realized nothing was happening, so one night I just asked him if he realized we hadn't ML in (then) about 5yrs, except for that once, and he said 'Well what do you expect if you have such a short temper'.
I'm afraid I said something like 'Did you ever think the two might be related?' But I did, honestly, also watch my temper. That year, H started the real tantrums (hmm...is this something I should think of? There was lots of picking, and little help, but I thought it was me up untill this point. When I brought it up, the tantrums started - just realized this), and it took me a long time, and 6 weeks in the states (which was also for the kids, not a real seperation) before H calmed down and realized I didn't hate him.
So then I tried about what you suggested. There were times that I blew up, but that was when I started just letting him sleep in the mornings, planned family outings alone, and I wasn't resentful, it was much easier just to not have to worry about him.
H was happy, too. As long as he got food when he was hungry, and his clothes were clean, he was pretty content. As the kids got older, I had more time, and I was able to keep the house fairly under control to avoid the biggest tantrums.
But, I was miserable. I basically felt I was marking time 'till the kids were older and I could get out. I was starting an EA (through e-mail with a old college friend). That was a wake up call - that I'd better do something, one way or the other, because I didn't want to get into the mess of an affair. The EA, by the way, stopped before it began.
Maybe this is something I need to work on, but editing H out is editing him out - meaning if I don't include him in family affairs, it's very difficult to consider him a lover. And if I bring up the subject of sex, he puts up walls.
Quote: Did you start setting reasonable boundaries with your husband?
Did you stop him from being abusive toward the children?
I think that is a yes.
I'm not so sure.
I did get H to join us for breakfast this morning, but I can be pretty sure that I will have to go through the same thing again next week if I want the result. I can remember once when H was reading a book for most of the weekend, finally at one point I asked him (calmly) if he could put the book aside and help me with something. For the next month or so, any time H picked up a book to read, he made a point of asking me if he could read it for a while (rather sarcastically).
I don't mean to say that I'm all right, though I'm afraid that's how I come across, and that's how it seems H takes it as well. Which makes me think I have to slow down.
As far as the kids? I've been here before, many times. I should have, as you pointed out, asked H to come out of the kitchen when he was yelling at the kids, rather than doing it in front of them. I have done this before, many times. I've come in many times when he is yelling that loud, and asked him to come out, and calmly said that he should not yell that loud, and ask him if he would like to take a walk to cool off. He gets insulted. I have often pointed out that if he's upset with me, to get mad at me, not at the children (and I do that it a calm, firm voice, even though we may have had a heated discussion). That does work, 'till the next time.
I do need to work on listening to him. But I honestly don't know how much I can take of him meeting me at the door when I get home from work of the list of things I should have done around the house, or how I have loaded the dishwasher wrong. These are not put-downs to him, they are important. I try to impliment as much as I can, but I do have my own way of doing things which are often more efficiant to me, and my time is at a premium.
I made sure I thanked H for anything he did today, and his answer was 'Don't be silly, it's obvious you don't appreciate me!'
I made sure he got alone time with the kids, so he wouldn't think I didn't trust him at all with them. Tonight when I was trying to get the boys to bed, they started their favorite pasttime, naked wrestling . I called H to watch, because it is really something to see twins wrestling, they know each other so well! H came up, but when I accidently brushed against him, he dramatically pulled himself out of my way and ran off. He's now downstairs with the stereo on LOUD reading the paper.
I'm afraid the 'crucible' approach is not going to work well for me. This morning, I did HOM very well, and I was firm but definately not loud when I made my original request.
I do understand that there is going to have to be a lot of uncomfort on both sides, but I don't want to upset the kids. D8 was miserable this afternoon, though she did get time alone with dad later and felt better. I'm sure she, most of all, is the one who feels torn loyalties, gets mad at 'isi' (Daddy) (and probably Mommy too, and feels guilty about it.
I'm sure I just need some time to think and 'regroup'. Right now it feels like I've asked if we could try to stop the yelling a thousand times, and H manages to put it on my shoulders. I'm impatient. I do need to try to keep in mind that H is not the enemy, but it is difficult at times.
Work starts again tomorrow, so there'll be less time for interaction, and less time to post. I'll keep you guys posted.
Ok, perhaps the rock has moved just a little. H came up and asked me (not very nicely...) to put the car in the garage. I asked if he would help - since the door doesn't work and everytime I try to open it he complains I do it wrong.
H then complained that I never wanted to listen when he tells me how to do things. I said that I would try to listen better, but admitted it does get me when he complains about the things I do every day, like cook, clean, etc.
The convo went on, and I'm so tired right now I don't exactly remember how, but at one point I apologized for something as H went into the other room. He came out and said something else, then asked me what I said. I (honestly) didn't remember. He said 'Oh, so you must not have meant it'.
M'It's very difficult to have a convo with you if you put down everything I say'. H'Yeah, and GUESS why I do that?' M'I can't guess, can you tell me?'
Surprise surprise, I didn't get an answer, so that's about par for the course, but H also mumbled something that 'Normal people would have started working on this three years ago'. M'Well, can't we work on it now?' we bantered on this back and forth...
I think I should learn to stop talking and listen. Not to mention try to figure out what happened 3 yrs ago.
FF, you sound incredibly patient to me... I honestly don't see how you can find the internal strength to put up with this immature behavior.
Also, I want to make sure you understand that all of these suggestions about what you might do are not meant to imply that you're doing anything wrong. It's more a case of trying to crack the code and find out what will get through to him.
When I was suggesting to edit him out, I didn't mean to be ugly and bitchy about it. I meant to meet his irrationality with utter neutrality, to refuse to take his bait, to stop asking him what you can do to be better, how you can please him, how to put the dishes in the dishwasher, etc. To refuse to engage in combat.
His additude seems to be that you (FF) deliberately do things around the house WRONG, and refuse to be TAUGHT how to do them RIGHT and you KNOW how this annoys him, and if you could just TRY to be better and do more then he wouldn't have to suffer so much! And you just do it to bug the crap out of him! <all done with much deep sighing and sagging of the shoulders>
I'm reminded of the verse from Alice in Wonderland (or is it from Through the Looking Glass)? He seems to think that you deliberately set out to annoy him.
Quote: Speak roughly to your little boy and beat him when he sneezes He only does it to annoy Because he knows it teases!
Do you have any inkling as to what his agenda is? The three-year thing is curious for sure.
Thanks for your words. Yes it does feel as though he's trying to 'teach' me.
I know it's not a matter of right or wrong, I guess I just get rather frustrated at times, when it feels like I'm pushing against a rock.
You know, I can remember saying to him often that 'I'm not deliberatly trying to annoy you!' or 'Not everything I say is calculated to make you mad'. Right now, if I could find something 'calculated' to make him happy...
Quote: Do you have any inkling as to what his agenda is? The three-year thing is curious for sure.
That's what I'm trying to figure out. Feels like he was handing it to me last nigh (You guess why) and I 'blew' it by asking.
. I called H to watch, because it is really something to see twins wrestling, they know each other so well! H came up, but when I accidently brushed against him, he dramatically pulled himself out of my way and ran off. He's now downstairs with the stereo on LOUD reading the paper. 
