I too get the feeling that he is mad at you about something and punishing you. When I went back and read your original post, he seemed less acrimonious before you were married... or was it before the children? Or is he mad because you pushed for commitment? I'm not saying this is right or justified but I agree that you need to know this.
In a backhanded (!) sort of way, if these recent convos have increased his mbing, that's a good sign that his juices are indeed flowing, so to speak. This type of convo can stir up the libido; it's just that you want him to direct that libido at you. But the fact that he does mb and that he does mb more when riled, could turn out to be a good sign in the long run, IF you can pull the covers off the grudge he seems to be holding.
I mean, there's the part of his personality that has always been quiet and keeps to himself-- okay, that's a given. But some of his behavior does seem-- at least from over here-- to be directed at punishing you. It's like he's saying to you: "I'm NOT going to let you GET to me! I'm NOT going to let myself CARE! You can't MAKE me!" <accompanied by a stomp of the foot!>
Also I think it was good that you said what you said and then left. He'll be thinking about it. If you had stayed and insisted on an answer, he probably would have found some way of turning it against you.
You're a brave woman, FF. Hats off to you. I also think it's good that you confronted him, and then left him with his own thoughts.
What's up with the chocolate-eating in bed? What kind of chocolate is it? Is he an obese man? There's only one thing I want to eat in bed, and I haven't been able to do that for years.
Hi Flutie-- You definitely sound more focused and less fluttering. I agree that you did a fine job of addressing the issue with him and leaving him to mull it over. I also agree that he will try to avoid any discussion on the topic, twist it around in some fashion, become angry, etc. Persistence is a major part of change---remember that your goal is a healthy one, to have an emotional and physical connection between husband and wife. He is so entrenched in his ways that it will require a lot of effort, so take care of yourself as well.
I was thinking about my own marriage which was filled with anger, resentment and mixed feelings on both our parts for a very long time. These emotions were easier to see in my H; I didn't recognize how ambivalent I was about the marriage and how long I felt this way. I know he felt pushed by me to get married, but I was pushed by my mother. We have both played out various forms of grudges over the yrs.
Like you, when I finally got my act together and wanted a healhty marriage, my feelings towards H were so conflictual that I felt I was mainly doing this for the kids. In time, I recognized that I did want him-- I wanted his love and affection and no one else's. Then that shifted to my being better able to love him again.
This week I told H that this is the first time I really feel married to him. I am choosing this path, and for me, that has made the difference. I wanted to let you know that change is definitely possible, even when bad patterns have been established for a long time ( in my case, my entire marriage).
The first thing to do is stop being afraid of your spouse/SO... which is easier said than done. How do I know? Well, thanks for asking. Yes, I'm afraid of my W in a lot of ways, mostly because she can choose to make my life a living hell. See, spouses can get defensive (at first) and then vengeful if something is brought to their attention that they don't want to deal with. I know I don't need any more complicated crap in my life at the moment, so I'm guessing that you don't either.
The second thing to do is figure out why you don't want to touch your spouse/SO... is it that you think they don't deserve the good feelings associated with the touching, or is it that your spouse is such a sh*t to you in the rest of life (nagging, being pissy or demanding, ignoring you, etc.) that you are just totally turned off to the idea of touching them, or is it because you don't feel that you're good enough for them anymore? For me, it's the first and second ones... and this has been going on for months. I can't get past these thoughts of "why should I?"
The third thing to do is just act on your impulses and attack your spouse/SO for sex when you want it. Just Do It. If you get rebuffed, you can use it against your spouse in the future. If you don't, you get some nookie. Seems like a win-win sitch to me.
OK, so some of this is quite cynical. Maybe you should just ignore it and it will go away.
Quote: What's up with the chocolate-eating in bed? What kind of chocolate is it? Is he an obese man? There's only one thing I want to eat in bed, and I haven't been able to do that for years.
HD, I've wondered about this chocolate thing, too. Obese? not really, could stand to loose about 40lbs, though. This reading/eating in bed started about a year ago, if I remember correctly. What really gets me is that the first thing he does in the morning is step on the scale. I suspect it's another defense mechanism like Lilli said sort of screaming 'I'm NOT going to let you in!!! 'You CAN'T make me have sex with you' Either that, or he figures if I'm overweight, he's goining to be too, so neither of us can have any fun.
Quote: The third thing to do is just act on your impulses and attack your spouse/SO for sex when you want it. Just Do It. If you get rebuffed, you can use it against your spouse in the future. If you don't, you get some nookie. Seems like a win-win sitch to me.
Chris,
First, I have tried to make it very obvious that I want sex with H. Short of tieing him to the bed and jumping on him (ok, down guys ) right now that approach isn't working. Hold it against him?? I'm trying to do away with resentment, on both sides. Holding grudges is definately going to cause more problems than it's going to solve.
IHJ,
I'm hoping too that while I say right now I'm doing this for the kids, that at some point I'll be wanting to stay for love as well. I keep telling myself that once we get past the defenses and the resentment there must be something good in there...
We went to a concert last night. We have season tickets to the local symphony, but I usually don't get to go 'cause I'm working. H actually suggested that I take one of the girls instead, but then said he did want to come.
It was fun. We talked, though H was his usual 'keep up with me, or I'll leave you there' mode. He got a little annoyed that I didn't know all the people he was pointing out, and told me to read the paper more. I said I'd been trying, but that since I work outside of town, and spend the majority of my time here with the kids, I don't get to know these people. He got annoyed that I was complaining.
When we got home, he was doing his best to avoid me. Went to the computer while I got the kids to bed, then went downstairs, turned on the stereo, loud, and started reading the paper. I got a snack and sat at the table with him, at which point he got up and went to do something else.
Finally, I sort of 'cornered' him, and asked 'What have I done that makes you so resentful of me'
H laughed. 'How am I suposed to know?' M 'You mean just avoiding me, and using porn to mb instead of ML to me is just normal?' H 'I couldn't tell you what it is, I don't know'.
It didn't really bug me, heh, I feel so 'differentiated' right now that if H said he was having an A, I would say 'Really? Is she nice? Should I invite her to dinner on Sunday?' So I said I was going to bed. H seemed a little confused. I did decide to go to bed naked, but I was working on beading moccasins for D6's halloween costume, so I'm sure I was more comical than sexy. H did come in, but made a point of avoiding looking at me.
This morning, I started again 'Look, I'm not going to let this go away. I deserve to know what it is that I have done to you that makes you so upset.'
H 'I don't know. Look, we couldn't even have a conversation at the concert last night. I was in a good mood, and you were just complaining, saying the concert was bad. Couldn't you just enjoy it?'
I didn't answer, which was good on my part. I did 'complain' about the concert. But I wouldn't have complained if I didn't feel comfortable with H, or think highly enough of him that I knew he could understand the criticism (of the concert). But at least I had enough sense to not say anything this morning.
------ I'll explain: For some reason, our local, world-renowned, critically aclaimed orchestra with a new, fantastic hall has started using their concertmaster as a conductor. This guy is a world-class violinist, but a lousy conductor. I mean wooden as anything, looks like he's in pain in front of the orchestra, and it came through in the playing last night. I'm a musician. I know that this country is FULL of young, talented conductors (most of the new big names in conducting are coming out of Finland right now), that would love to get in front of this orchestra. It also riles me to know that if anyone actually said this outloud in the media here, they would be blackballed.
For me to sit there and say nothing, (especially when we met a friend at intermission, a good friend of H who studied at the same time as I in Helsinki who definately shared with my opinion) would go against myself. Of course, if I had been with someone who I knew didn't understand music, or the music business, I would have just said 'what a nice concert' and kept it in.
-----------
Ok, that was a 'brief' aside. I understand that H feels uncomfortable with me if I state my opinions, and he wants me to be 'happier' with him, which to him means just accepting whatever situation we're in, no matter what. This *is* a cultural thing, and it's one of the things that bothers me most about this country - everyone is just suposed to accept authority, and not try to change anything, even if it makes them uncomfortable. One is supposed to just 'grin and bear it'.
This goes against my cultural, personal makeup. In other words, the whole idea of having personal integrity, and standing up for it goes against the Finnish identity. I have a close friend, Canadian, who has battled with similar problems. Her M works fine, her H has lived abroad, and is proud of his W, but in her attempts to adopt here, and to school her son the way she feels is best for him, she has had to fight against this attitude of 'Do it our way, or else!' all the time. I seem to have grown a thicker skin socially, but not in my M.
I know this is going to take time. And I know there are small signs...H is very uncomfortable right now. H said this morning 'I don't know what I can ask you, 'cause everything seems different right now' I answered 'Good, I'm trying to stir things up, 'cause I don't want them to be the same'
I'm impatient, and I know that's something I need to still work on. But I can't help wondering if H+I are both expecting things from one another that go against what we were brought up to believe. I know it sounds like I use the cultural excuse a lot, but I hope maybe you'll all understand now that it's not trying to get out of working, but trying to figure out what actually will work here. I know there are mixed-cultural Ms that work, I know it is possible. But I also know there are an awful lot that don't.
We had a big argument this past summer when H needed a new computer screen, and figured it would be cheaper to go to the US to get it, even paying customs, that buy it here. Since he still had vacation time after I started work, he asked if I would mind if he went to the States with the boys. I said yes, I did mind! I said it firmly and calmly, and H flew off the handle. I ended up walking along the harbor that night, around 2am wondering what I was doing. For me, who is homesick - I enjoy living here, I've chosen that, but I do miss my family + friends, especially now as I (and they) get older...and since I don't get to go home often, I welcome any chance I can get! H knows this, and knew I would get upset he expected me to fly off the handle, which I didn't, so he did. Now, he won't even talk about the possibility of me going 'home' for a visit (remember, he holds the finances, see, I need to find a way to have my own money to have some kind of pull in this R)
Ok, this is getting way too long, and probably just rambling...I've gotta to go pay some attention to my 'little ones'. This intense thinking I'm going through is no good for them. I've been here physically with them all week, but not as 'here' as they deserve, and sometimes, in trying to think things out, I get snappy with them. They don't deserve that. It's not as though I've just sat in the wings for the past 8-10 yrs, and only now am coming to life, I'm just more, well, focused right now. And it bugs me no end that H can't seem to see that, and instead of working along side of me, seems to want to trip me up instead.
Ok, I'm just venting. I'll come back later when I can think straighter.
Don't waste your energy trying to figure out why H resents you, and don't try to make him figure this out either. He sounds emotionally repressed to begin with and is probably clueless as to why he acts the way he does towards you. Right now you want the behavior to change...the analysis part does come into play eventually as the behaviors change.
Right now you have to call him on any disrespectful behavior and keep at the message of adding physical intimacy to the picture. Come up with a behavioral plan to "work" at this.
I believe your H is in pain and married you because he did not want to "grin and bear it." Certainly you were able to overcome the cultural differences in the beginning of your relationship! Remind him of your fun and spirited side ( remind yourself as well).
Your H is a difficult nut to crack because he is so entrenched in his negative views. Underneath, he doesn't want to be there but he can't see the world any other way. Your persistence may not be enough; it takes a lot of energy and you lead a very busy life. Consider getting professional help ( I know there was a reason why you couldn't, but rethink that).
FF, please don't apologize for the long posts. I love it when I get on the board and see that you have posted recently because I know your post will be long! You're a great writer and do an excellent job of painting a picture. I saw a shirt yesterday at the PX that said "Finland" on it, and I almost bought it just because now I "know" someone in Finland!
I totally agree with IHJ
Quote: I believe your H is in pain and married you because he did not want to "grin and bear it."
He picked YOU because consciously AND unconsciously he wanted an outspoken, opinionated, strong, independent American in his life. If he had wanted a Finnish girl, he would have married one. You might say that he didn't know what he was getting into, but Schnarch says that people attract the right partners to work on the stuff they need to work on.
His responses to your challenge to the mb/porn thing have been interesting. He DIDN'T get defensive, which is what I would have expected. And when you asked him why he resented you, he didn't deny it, or attack you, or ask why you would say something like that, he said "how should I know?" That is an acknowledgement of the elephant in the middle of the room.
I think your going to bed naked was great. As far as jumping him, what would he do if you just leaned over, took his penis in your mouth, and commenced to suck? Would he literally push you off and run from the room?
And the chocolate in bed thing... does he ever share it with you? Do you ever ask for any? Chocolate is such a sensuous food. What's up with that? Did some event trigger the chocolate habit?
I often compared my bf in the early days of our R to a kitty I tamed years ago. He showed up out here in the country, hungry, beat up. I courted and wooed that cat over a period of years. If there is a heaven, and I go there, it will be because of the love and patience that I showered on that old tomcat. He was so afraid when he arrived. I think his whole life he had been under siege. I wanted him to feel safe at my house. When he ate, he would sometimes growl while he was eating, as though he wanted the food, but didn't want to admit that he wanted it, kwim? Your H has some overtones of this... just when you get close, he swats you with his paw... I get the feeling he secretly wants to be close, but letting down the defenses is too damn scary.
The scene at the concert was weird. As a knowledgeable adult companion, your informed opinion about the Symphony would be welcome TO ANOTHER ADULT. But when you try to be a grown-up, he slips into whiny child mode and accuses you of spoiling his evening. You just have to ignore this...
Does HE want to be the child and resents the fact that you have other actual children that need to be mothered? Does he want to be mothered, but doesn't feel it's culturally acceptable or manly to admit that? What is he like when he's sick? Strong and stoic or baby-ish and whiny? (NOT that those are the only two alternatives! LOL! Don't start throwing things at me, people! )
Unlike IHJ I would like to know why he resents you.
If he is asking you, as your husband, to be more cheerful and less complaining then don't you think you should take that seriously?
I just don't see how he is to take what you say to heart when you may not be willing to do the same for him. He is holding out a big sign with neon lights all around it, asking for change, and you are blowing him off. That also gives him the ammunition to blow YOU off--after all, he doesn't feel validated or that he has been heard so why should he listen to you? Why not just turn to the porn and chocolate. (and, look, he can't be all bad..he has excellent tastes in vices!:)
I agree that this might be a cultural thing but it also may be an area in which you will have to learn a different way to act around him. It just might not WORK to be this way around him.
I can picture two sarcastic and poking-fun Americans at the symphony critiquing the conductor's every move so I do get what you are saying about the cultural thing.
However, if your H is telling you that this area needs change--and he's said it many times--then I as your friend would be remiss if I didn't say, Yo! You might be missing something huge here!!
My husband is big on having a cheerful wife, as well. I resented this for a long time because I thought I never got a break in which to be crabby. I have to say though that the acting as if thing really works. If I act cheerful long enough, pretty soon I am feeling cheerful. Now, I am not cheerful every day but just knowing that my H now has a mental image of me as a cheerful and loving person makes me want to BE that person.
I imagine it must be next to impossible to be cheerful to your H, given what a big fat crab he likes to be, so maybe you could approach him and tell him that you'd really like to address this in yourself but that you need his help--namely that you find it hard to NOT get crabby when he picks on you.
Here is a tidbit for ya: My H admitted (after he stopped doing this atrocious behavior) that at one time he would walk in the door and begin surveying the room, looking for something to b*tch about. Dishes in the sink, toys on the floor, crunched up crackers under the table, whatever. This was when we were having sex a handful of times per year. I asked why he did that and he could not give an answer.."I don't know, I just remember feeling really on edge when I walked in the door and wanting something to pick on." I couldn't tell you the last time he did this--years ago now. So your H CAN change this behavior and I hope he is willing to do his part in order to effect the change that he wants to see in his house and marriage.
Quote: Don't waste your energy trying to figure out why H resents you, and don't try to make him figure this out either. He sounds emotionally repressed to begin with and is probably clueless as to why he acts the way he does towards you. Right now you want the behavior to change...the analysis part does come into play eventually as the behaviors change.
IHJ,
I think I agree with you here. I really think that H doesn't know why he acts like he acts, and I don't think there is really any 'one' particular event which triggered things. I suspect it's a general being unable to deal with my emotions, feeling inadequate in the providing/nuturing area.
Which means that HP is probably right when she says
Quote: If he is asking you, as your husband, to be more cheerful and less complaining then don't you think you should take that seriously?
Yeah. I have been working on this, and I'm sure I can still do better. The thing last night threw me off, because, really, I felt I was being pleasant - it's not as though he's never complained about a concert we've attended together! But, I have given him a lot to think about over the past few days, and if I'm stressed, of course, he must be as well.
Thanks, HP for sharing the anecdote about your H. Gives me a sense of hope!
Yes, I'm afraid of my W in a lot of ways, mostly because she can choose to make my life a living hell. See, spouses can get defensive (at first) and then vengeful if something is brought to their attention that they don't want to deal with. I know I don't need any more complicated crap in my life at the moment, so I'm guessing that you don't either.
) right now that approach isn't working. Hold it against him?? I'm trying to do away with resentment, on both sides. Holding grudges is definately going to cause more problems than it's going to solve.
)