Ok, two hours of sitting (sleeping!) in the car rather than driving, and a good sauna has somewhat focused my thinking. I have next week off, so this is a great chance for me to make some headway here.
Nopkins, I'm finally getting around to making that list you suggested ages ago. I was thinking I'd print it out and read it to H, then give him the copy as a reminder. Any comments and suggestions are more than welcome:
------ I feel that there is a lack of respect in our home. I would like to live in a home where I feel respected, our children are respected, and the kids and I respect you. So, I’ve come up with a list of things to work on.
-I will not be yelled at. If you yell, I will remove myself from the area untill you have calmed down long enough to speak to me in a civil tone.
I will not respond to ’Come here, I have something to say to you’.
Or ’What gives you the right to ignore me?’ As far as I know, it’s a free country. I choose not to be yelled at or talked down to, and I will ignore your attempts to do so.
I also will not respond to ’How many times have I told you....’
If you want to talk to me, try something like: honey, it bothers me when you do _____.
I will also most likely respond better if you are nice to me. Prefacing your request with a hug or kiss will do wonders.
It would also help if you sometimes say things to me that aren’t requests or complaints. I enjoy hearing ’you look nice today’ or ’thanks for dinner’ or even better ’is there something I can do to help?’ Hugs and/or kisses for absolutely no reason would also be nice. I’ll be much more likely to listen to your next request after that!
I expect that the kids get the same respect I will also try my best to respect your wishes.
----- This last part has me a little worried. I want H to give me suggestions as to what would make him feel respected, but I'm afraid that he will come back with a list of 'requests' or rules that he expects to be followed.
In addition, there are a few things I plan on working on (not necessarily going to tell H about these):
*Validating (not necessarily agreeing with) H's feelings *Loosing weight (this is for me. I'm tired of carrying this extra weight around. I want to ahve more energy, strength and flexibility. This has some advantages in my career as well) *Working on an 'exit strategy'. Even if things work out, we'll be better off if I have a 'better' job, and am better equipped at handling money (not to mention having money to handle)
My biggest fear? That I'll get lazy, or that H's tantrums will get me to back down. I've spent so much time being the peace maker, worrying about how H feels, rather than focusing on myself first.
There is also one thing for down the line...I haven't brought it up, because I feel there's so much we need to work on first, but one of my goals is to have H propose to me. If you really want to hear the story, I might tell, but H never did. A few years ago, he threw this out, when I had brought up D in a heated argument, he said 'You were the one that wanted this marriage thing in the first place', so it really would be important to me.
Quote: one of my goals is to have H propose to me. If you really want to hear the story, I might tell, but H never did. A few years ago, he threw this out, when I had brought up D in a heated argument, he said 'You were the one that wanted this marriage thing in the first place', so it really would be important to me.
This is another way in which your sich is so much like mine. My H didn't really propose either due to the fact that I was pregnant. He told me recently that he has felt resentful towards me, so I decided that it was absolutely necessary that he re-commit to our relationship of his own free will before I would re-commit myself. Thus, our 3 hour separation a few weeks ago. It seems so trite but I've found that there is a lot of truth to that "If you love something set it free" poem. There is a difference between "setting someone free" and "threatening to leave them" so be careful how you handle it. I say this for your benefit because you won't get what you want if you manipulate the situation too much with negative reinforcement for much the same reasons that you won't get what you want if you pander to your H for sexual favors. I think this is another way to define "differentiation". If you can calmly and kindly tell your H that you need sex and physical affection in your life in order to maintain your personal integrity and you intend to have it whatever his preferences may be, you will be acting from a place of differentiation.
I still feel a bit of resentment towards my H for his jerky LD behavior over the years because I am not a perfectly differentiated person, so I occasionally still have a mini-urge to "cut bait" and run, but then I tell myself that this isn't necessary because I am no longer allowing myself to be treated unfairly in my relationship. You can't set your spouse free until you liberate yourself emotionally. Once you are 'differentated", it's easy to become a sort of missionary of differentiation and set an example for your spouse to follow. Make it clear that you are steering your own little boat solo and you have no intention of either towing your H's boat or making waves to upset him, then he will realize that he is responsible for steering his own little boat too. At that point, he will be free to decide whether he wants to accompany you to happy sex island or explore uncharted territory on his own.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I read your list and a couple of things popped out at me.
The list itself is a strong indicator of your husbands lack of respect for you.
If you respect someone, you don't make child level demands of them. "Come here, I have something to say to you", or "How many times have I told you...."
You might want to shorten the list to; "I expect that, from this day forward, you will treat me with respect, and as an adult. I love you very much, but I will simply not accept any less from you." Then you might want to commit to do the same with him.
The first time he breaks rank, you point it out right then and in no uncertain terms. If he catches you in a breach, then you apologize.
I completely agree on the tantrums. Leave the room immediately. If he follows, lock the door.
From what you have written about the family dynamics, respect seems to be the single most important MISSING part of the equation. Once you address that, I think you will have a much easier time addressing the sex, since that is also a part of basic respect in a marriage.
As for losing some weight. I whole heartedly agree that you should pursue that in earnest. Go to the gym or exercise at home. Start getting into shape. Don't just diet. Once you have killed off a few pounds and become stronger, your attitude about YOU will change. I swear to you that it will. Your husband WILL notice.
I wouldn't worry too much about an exit strategy right now. Working on you will accomplish the very same thing without the weight of when to give up. The changes will get his attention, and that is what you are after. If you eventually find that you can no longer stand the relationship, then you will be a better person, slim and trim and ready to go. That will also make you very attractive to a new potential mate. Don't plan on that yet. It is still very early in the game, and you have much work to do before you worry about the end game.
"Luke, you got ta get yo mind right, boy" (an old Paul Newman movie). Luke never did, but I think you have, and hubby is about to find his barn on fire.
If you want to succeed, implement the changes, then don't be surprised by the fireworks, and never let him think that you've stopped loving him whenever he trips over a new boundary. If you can pull that off, your marriage will change, and it won't take years.
Once you set your boundaries, don't waffle, that will just confuse hubby and make the process take longer.
That's my $0.02 worth. Please keep me posted.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Thanks for your insights. I was going to write how I felt that I would use the specific list, because I have said the general 'I would like to be treated like an adult' in calm convos, and it has come up when I've lost my temper in one of H's 'tantrums'. Of course, it had no effect in the later, but it didn't in the former either.
I was feeling empowered by that list. I felt that finally I had a way of showing H what I wanted. I even felt, like you pointed out, that I didn't really need the exit strategy, but wanted to leave it there, because I really think a change in job for me and my financial education will benefit us no matter what happens, and will improve the M.
That was before I talked with H.
I woke up early this morning, and got up for a while to enjoy the quiet before my troops get up. Then I went back into bed, and H was half awake, so I took his hand as I snuggled in. He seemed to like that, so I was glad he was in a good mood.
The kids climbed into bed with us before I got a chance to talk, then the guy from the car dealer arrived with our car, and H went to drive him home (H had arranged all this so I wouldn't have any extra stuff to do tomorrow - another sign that he's not a complete ogre!)
When he came back, I was busy making breakfast for the kids, and he went up to the computer. So I went up to ask him if he wanted breakfast, and asked if I could talk for a little bit.
I hope you'll bear with me guys, while I type out the whole thing, 'cause I'm pretty confused and deflated right now, and I need some help to get some perspective on this.
I read the list, (after I had to go get a chair so that I wouldn't be 'standing above him') and he listened with a sort of 'what's coming now' look on his face.
When I was done, he said 'Last night in sauna, you yelled that I shouldn't talk to you after I asked you something simple'
I didn't remember, so I asked him to explain. H 'I asked you if you had opened the vent, and you said don't talk to me like that. I would say that shows a lack of respect.
M 'Now I remember. You asked me, and I answered you - yes I did. - You didn't hear me, so you asked me again, in a loud, yelling sort of voice. I answered you again, saying - yes I did - in a louder voice, and asked you if you would not speak to me in that sort of voice'
H 'Well, I was in a good mood up 'till then, but then I realized I couldn't speak to you. I did what you asked, I didn't speak to you in that tone of voice'
I realized this convo was degenerating fast, so I went downstairs to make his breakfast. Now I was really confused. Once again I started playing through my head what had happened, if I had been rude to him, but I realized that he had just shot down everything I said with one sentance.
H came down, and we were together, alone, eating breakfast. H did have his paper, so I got a book so I wouldn't look like I was desperate for conversation.
H 'Does this respect thing include not trashing something that someone has done, or ignoring what they've done?'
M 'Yes, it does'
H' Good! Now I know what to call it! Last year I cleaned the kitchen from top to bottom, put everything where it belongs, and shortly after that, it was a mess again. Just look at it now!' Then he continued 'It's the same thing with the car that you keep trash in, or not cleaning the cleaning equipment after you're done...'
He might have gone on, I don't know, I came up here. So now, it seems I've given him another weapon. If I state to him that he's being disrespectful, he can turn around and say he's just asking for respect, and I'm being disrepectful in not listening to him.
I'm not perfect. I know that. I don't want to be perfect. I'm disorganized, and our house is not spotless. There are times when the kitchen is a mess, along with everything else. We have 4 kids, and the oldest isn't yet 9!!!!!!! And yes, the kids are learning to do things around the house. There are times I might leave a paper or two in the car, but it is very very far from being 'trashy'. I work, and I do keep this house in working order, and it's a lot cleaner than a lot of our friends homes in this sitch. I'm not bragging, 'cause in reality, it's not really something I'm proud of, I do it do keep things calm here (I've started to change that to doing it for me, 'cause it makes my life easier)
I'm not a nag. I would consider myself easy going. Too easy going, as you've all seen.
We've got a decent life. We have 4 healthy, intelligent, imaginative, beautiful kids, a nice house, and I know there are people who envy H his choice of wife .
So what do I do?? What went wrong? Should I just consider this normal 'fireworks'? I have tried my best to be here while all these backslides are happening, I've done my best to remain pleasant, make H's breakfast every morning, get his lunch, make him snacks at night, say goodbye to him in the morning...
But guys, I'm human, and I'm really getting to the end of my rope. Thing is, I don't know what to do.
I think you have to listen to the voice of reason within you. Is your H right when he feels like you are expressing disrespect for him by not cleaning or is this a desperate attempt at self-preservation on his part. By this I mean that maybe deep down he knows that he has problems with sexuality but he can't face them so he has to somehow make you in to the "bad guy" in order to justify his behavior to himself. If this is the case, you can't win by trying to improve your behavior because his desperation will cause him to magnify any imperfection in you or your behavior in order to justify his LD.
I remember when my LD sister-in-law left her first husband, she said that the reason she left him was he was "condescending". Since he was a good-humored, average looking guy with a trade school education and she was a quite attractive, bad-tempered woman with a college degree, I can only translate "condescending" into "didn't suck up enough".
You may have to do something to shatter his illusion that you are in someway unworthy of sexual attention and respect. Perhaps you are smarter than me but the only way I could think to do it was to make it blatantly obvious that other men were interested in my company.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It seems that the conversations in your M are degenerating into "he said, she said" and neither of you walks away satisfied that you made your point to the other. Now, as JJ mentioned, is your H correct in his assessment of things? Or, is he blind to anything that's not "his way?"
Perhaps your 4 beautiful children are "messing with your karma." In other words, are the kids "messing up the kitchen" and destroying your H's orderly world? Are they "trashing up" your car? H needs to understand that if it were just the 2 of you (no kids), things would be clean and orderly, as he likes it. However, you BOTH decided that you wanted children, and you knew that that would change your world. Sometimes, no matter how a parent tries to keep things neat, clean, and orderly, the children just have their own plan.
I don't want to sound like I'm blaming the children for anything. I'm pointing out that children make life more "interesting" most of the time.
Do you think that H "regrets" having children now that he knows what they're all about?
OK, so there are many issues. Lack of respect is a BIG issue in my own M (my W doesn't have much for me), and I know how it feels to live with someone who doesn't hear you when you speak. I have learned to "let things go" and not react negatively to them. It keeps the peace.
I hope you will forgive me for jumping in here--I've lurked a bit, have been over in Newcomers much longer (as the D was threatened) and so am approaching things over here in much the same way.
As I'm starting to see that sex drives in people are really closely related to the relationship they have. It's not so much to fix the sex part, you have to fix the R, first. I don't know if your H ever threatened D, or if you have been over to the Newcomer's board much, but there is just a wealth of R-type help over there that you may find helpful.
First of all, you are making a list of things that you want him to do (changes) to show respect.
In Newcomers, they would say that YOU have to do the changing--this leads to the S changing. Lots of examples over there of this working to a "T".
You mention you need to work on validating. This is one of the biggest skills I have found in my sitch--to validate like crazy. Lord, is it hard, when they are "grumpy" and yelling and unreasonable (like a child) to validate. I have a LONG way to go on this one, but my "itty bitty" baby steps in this area are making things better!
Losing weight--an excellent goal. Doing something "different" or a "180" as they call it in Newcomers makes the S sit up and take notice. Do you have any other 180s? They are really fun once you start getting that "look" from your H. I think, and this is my own opinion, that getting in shape feels like "respect" to the H. Plus it will make you feel terrific. In control of yourself and life in general.
Can you focus on a few things that your H would find respectful and REALLY do a 180 in that area? If he complains about the kitchen, keep it spotless. You don't have to overwhelm yourself--in Newcomers, the threat of your S leaving makes you go into hyperdrive. But the change, again, is a big attention getter.
A huge, huge realization came to be through this ordeal--I have a LOT of power to change things--way, way more than I ever imagined. I am still having a lot of fun "changing" and getting the "look" or having my H change in some really interesting way, due to my changes. My H is also grumpy, yells, throws tantrums, can be cold, etc. He is Danish, BTW.lol.
"Come over here, I have something to say to you" OMGosh, have I not heard this about a million times!
I used to be like you--YOU change, and then I will. But you just won't get the results. At least, I didn't trying to do that for 9 years. In the last 8 months I've gotten MORE changes than the past 9 years. Plus it's ME that I have to control, not someone else. Not easy, by a long shot, but it's a WHOLE lot easier to control me than anyone else!
Before kids, we were both pretty lazy as far as keeping the house in shape. The things he's complaining about with the car are my 'fault', as is the kitchen - if you condsider that it's my fault that I don't always get all the dishes off the counter because the dishwasher is running with the last load. Of course, everything would be easier without 4 kids, that goes with the territory!! And I am more lazy about housework, and I've improved since I know it bothers H more. But no, I don't think H regrets having kids. Shortly after having the boys, he said he wanted more. I put my foot down - he honestly said, well you and D8 can handle it! He likes the kids as long as he doesn't have to do the work. I know children make life more interesting, and I wouldn't change that for anything!!!
Laura,
Thanks. I'll think about what you've said some, think I need some time to think calmly. Right now my answer to you would be that I've been 'working on myself' for a long time. Even before I found my way here, I had realized that I needed to change the way I responded to H, and I had done alot of changing, only to realize that that led to H feeling that things were ok, since I didn't say anything. H has never mentioned D, he's happy with things, as long noone invades his space, and I don't complain, and we do things the way he wants.
I need some time to 'refocus'. This morning I felt horrible. Went out and raked for a couple hrs with the kids and felt better (even though H stuck his head out at the end to tell us we were putting the leaves in the compost wrong ) and now I'm going to go watch 'The wizard of Oz' with the kids in the name of 'cultural education'
I just encourage you to take a look over in Newcomers--180s can be different things to different people. It's doing something different. For me, validating instead of losing my temper was a COMPLETE 180. I see him really giving me some looks at times when he expects me to act a certain way, and I don't.
In Newcomers, you try something new for 2 weeks, then monitor results. You won't get burned out that way--it either will work and you keep it up because you'll be getting results, or you drop it.
I hear you are pretty burned out--try to do something nice for yourself today. Another biggie--taking care of YOU!
Flutie, I do think that some validation is in order here. Not that you have to roll over and acquiesce to his every demand but just saying, 'Yes I hear what you're saying about the junk in the car.'
Right now, it's as if you are both saying "I want you to change in XYZ way" to each other but neither of you are making any concessions to the other. I think that PM is a really good way to learn to dialogue about things that you are unwilling to compromise on, but not every issue in marriage is one of integrity, kwim? Hear what he is saying. Then perhaps he will be inspired to do the same. Your H sounds like a child, emotionally. You may have to lead by example. Are all Finnish men this emotionally retarded??
Another idea is to give him a list of ways in which YOU want to change for the better. Let him see you making an effort to be a better wife and person and he might decide to ditch his defensive and childish walls around him.
I liked NOP's concise sentence about respect, as well as the follow up plan. Keep it short and remind him EVERY time he disrespects you. In a kind and dispassionate way, if you can, because that will completely defuse him not to mention be a 180. Keep him off guard. Let him see the new Flutie and sit back and be silently intrigued. He is already starting to do that, imo!
Good luck to you and don't get discouraged; you are up to this task. All the best, Honeypot
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) and now I'm going to go watch 'The wizard of Oz' with the kids in the name of 'cultural education'