NOP, Are you saying that her love language is WOA and instead of talking her UP with his words, he is tearing her down (I want more sex) and this is having a disastrous effect on the marriage?
I, too, read his exchanges with his wife and think What does she WANT from him?? I mean, specifically..? I understand that she moved to be with him, etc, but I have a hard time understanding how he can make that up to her--is this even possible or desirable? Also there is that punishing element to her personality that Corri pointed out that would make it darn near impossible for him to appreciate her.
But I do think that people who are acts of service oriented do so, in part, because they want the praise from their mates. I know my SIL is like this to an almost bizarre extreme. She will stay up all night baking an elaborate cake and decorating it with millions of little stars or whatever (lol) but boy if the recipient doesn't give the proper amount of praise and gushiness, she will never forget it. So yeah she likes to service people but she likes that praise a whole lot more.
Hairy's wife seems to really light up when he praises her and tells her what a good attorney she is so maybe this is an area to work with. Not very Schnarchian but there's more than one way to skin a peach, right NOP!
I think the reason you got so much advice is that there was a certain air of 'giving up' in your original post, even though you might not have meant it. So everyone came out of the woodwork with all their guns blazing! That, and of course, we love you
I think the fact that a lot of people are able to see your wife's point of view means that you probably painted a pretty accurate picture of your situation. Give yourself credit for that.
All the advice is not mutually exclusive. Ultimately, you will have to draw your boundaries AND respect hers. Ultimately, you will have to meet her needs AND have her meet yours.
Can you show her your appreciation AND draw a boundary for her at the same time? I think its possible. You have to be careful that she doesn't perceive it as manipulation. The danger in NOP's suggestion is that she will happily accept what you offer, and after 30 days, when you bring your needs to table yet again, she will cry foul. The danger in Corri's approach is that she will refuse to confront herself and you two will become further polarized. Can you lay ALL your cards on the table at once? I think its possible.
Quote: APPRECIATE: recognize the worth of; esteem duly, be fully conscious of. raise in value
How does one show appreciation if not by doing things for them or saying things to them?
If compliments are brushed off and honey-dos are ignored then exactly in what way can a person show appeciation?
I think she brushed off the Words of Affirmation because she had the gain way up on her hidden agenda radar. She thinks Hairy may not have been sincere, that he was just trying to butter her up for sex. ("Last Tango in Paris" anyone?) Mrs. HD is always harping on trust, maybe that is one of the manifestations.
Hairy, next time you try to show appreciation and responds with "You are only saying that because I pointed it out to you", you can say "Right you are! You have legitimate complaints that I am trying to address. I will try to address your legitimate issues regardless of whether we make love, because ILY and it's the right thing to do."
This is what NOP is talking about. Unfortunately, the only way to get her to trust that your good will comes with no strings attached is to call a cease-fire on sexual initiation. I am not talking about giving in: "Yes dear, I will turn into NoSexPat and be your Best Friend For Life and nothing more." I'm talking about fixing her issues while holding onto your own sexual nature.
Once you have met her half way without making sexual requests, she will start running out of reasons to keep you away. I hope.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Thanks again all. As far as sexual initiation goes, she and I both know I was not about to initiate last night. I NEVER initiate after sundown! My only agenda last night was to make a point of thanking her for doing all the planning because I truly did feel thankful, and I knew (or thought I knew) she would want to hear me express it.
Nops' dialogue is more true than I would want to believe. I do a LOT, without complaint, and usually without calling attention to it.
My dilemma is, if I tell her about my appreciation for her work or deeds, she brushes it off, and if I don't, she faults me for not appreciating anything she does. That is called a Catch-22. All I can do is keep trying to be a nice, appreciative guy, and hope she gets over whatever demons keep on telling her to doubt me.
As for calling for a cease-fire on sexual initiation, I haven't pushed that issue for at least 2 or 3 weeks. By "pushing that issue" I mean, what I usually do, which is, while laying in bed (usually on a weekend morning), beginning to touch her, kiss her, non-sexual stuff, Then I maybe work my way to her breasts. If I've gotten that far (and the process, up to this point, usually takes about 10-15 minutes) and she hasn't either pushed my hand away or told me to stop, then it usually means I can proceed farther. She has told me that just saying, "wanna fool around?" or something similar, doesn't work for her. Yes, of course there are rules to follow in every engagement with her.
I was just thinking about the last two times we have made love at night. Once was when she had just returned from a trip to China, and her inner-clock was all messed up, and she was laying awake at 2a.m. and she even initiated! That was in 2001. The other time was the night before we were to leave on our trip to China to adopt our daughter. I said to her, "you know, this is the last time we will be in bed together without a child in the house for a long time." We ML and, it was the most loving, intimate session we had had in a long time, or since. That was in October 2002.
HD wrote: My dilemma is, if I tell her about my appreciation for her work or deeds, she brushes it off, and if I don't, she faults me for not appreciating anything she does. ---------------------
Welcome to my world! The only thing I've found to help when my expression of appreciation is rebuffed is to say, "If you choose not to accept my appreciation, that's out of my control. However, it's inappropriate for you to judge my intention in saying it. Either say, 'Thank you' or ignore it, please."
Quote: Corri said: ------------------- I think your advice is great. Just my opinion, but I don't think this is going to work yet... not because it isn't sound reasoning, but because HD's wife wants to punish, not fix. She wants to be victimized, not accountable.
Given her mindset, I believe a C can help him figure out the best way to help her by first helping himself. -------------------
You may be right, it might not work.
Even if it doesn't, when Harry approaches counseling, he can do so with a clear conscience, knowing that he isn't dragging a boat load of his own garbage to the situation. A clean slate so to speak.
The other consideration is that she will expose herself and her real issues in a way that hasn't been possible previously, or that has been only opaquely visible due to muddy waters.
That was my logic for what it's worth.
Ah. I see. Eliminates damaage and potentially builds trust just through repetition and reinforcement. There really isn't anything else he can do....
...except buy the Boundaries book and go see a shrink to help him vent HIS frustration and get professional help on forming a game plan.
Okay everyone, we've decided that moving to the basement is NOT a good idea, for now... 100 lashes with a wet noodle to Corri for ever suggesting such a thing...
HD said: ---------------- My dilemma is, if I tell her about my appreciation for her work or deeds, she brushes it off, and if I don't, she faults me for not appreciating anything she does. That is called a Catch-22. All I can do is keep trying to be a nice, appreciative guy, and hope she gets over whatever demons keep on telling her to doubt me. ----------------
When she brushes off your appreciation, that is an opportunity to communicate. In many cases, it goes beyond opportunity and is in fact, an invitation.
She wants to believe you, but you aren't following through with the details.
Let me translate the brush off.
HD's wife: "You are just saying that because I had asked you too"
Wrong response: "If you don't want me to appreciate you then I won't"
Correct response: "Oh, babe, I really do appreciate what you have done (THEN DETAIL WHAT EXACTLY YOU APPRECIATE ABOUT WHAT SHE HAS DONE. if she looks like she doesn't understand, take her hand, look in her eyes and SAY IT AGAIN WITH THE SAME DETAILS, ONLY EMBELLISHED THIS TIME)".
It's about communication, HD. Your relationship needs some :-)
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
HP said: ------------------- Are you saying that her love language is WOA and instead of talking her UP with his words, he is tearing her down (I want more sex) and this is having a disastrous effect on the marriage? -------------------
I certainly think that is a large part of their communication issue.
I am ignoring HD's needs right now in order to establish a baseline for acceptable behavior in their relationship. Until he can establish parameters for communication in a trustworthy manner, she is not likely to address HD's needs. HD is here, so he gets to go first :-)
HP said: -------------- Hairy's wife seems to really light up when he praises her and tells her what a good attorney she is so maybe this is an area to work with. Not very Schnarchian but there's more than one way to skin a peach, right NOP! --------------
Heh, heh. You are right, HP. It doesn't matter what tool is used as long as the work gets done in a timely fashion, and it is high time that HD got his wife back.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
