The love you initiate...

[cycler28]

Hey Sage!!

I haven't been on the bb in a very long time (since at least april) Soooooooo much has happened to my sitch and so quickly that I basically got lost (emotionally)....Big developement 3 weeks ago brought me to my knees (literally)....after talking with Undie(Betsey), I realized that as much as this bb can be a crutch it can also be redemption.....I needed to look back and move forward all at the same time.....

You know how it goes...God seems to bring you to where you need to be and if you pay attention the messages are there for you. Well this post was that for me.

I HAD to let you know that.

I've been walking around for a week wandering between what am I going to do? and What am I suppose to do? What does this mean? and a billion other questions....all of which you have probably asked yourself......

Like you said, "I wish someone would just email me with it instead of having to be hit over the head" but that would just be too easy now wouldn't it!! And then we wouldn't really internalize the lessons that we are suppose to learn...

Yesterday I made the decision that this is the end...this is just not what I should be putting up with and as much as I felt God's hand on my shoulder seeing me through, after my H got home and AGAIN was cold and distant and seemingly sniping at me....I figured I can't do this anymore..... It didn't make sense to be soooo miserable.

"He is just looking for a way out" I said to myself...

After a rather fitfull night (he won't touch me or kiss me goodnight(our ritual) and an uncomfortable awakening this morning again (no kiss or hug( our sign that we are okay)he just says; Here feel this...his you know what, and then "I got get out of this bed I have to pee, move your carcus")!!!!!!!!!!!!
I felt hopeless, to see where this was going....

When is he going to stop punishing me for HIS infidelity, when is he goiong to stop making it MY fault that this has happened.......
I found your post...........


"I'm not the only one who needs to heal, who is afraid of loss, who wonders if the other truely loves, who regrets the mistakes and wonders if he can forgive himself......who can't understand how I could still love him?"

So thank you.....

please keep sharing

Trish(Cycler28)

[shinybear]

Hey Sage!

Has anyone else noticed the eery similarities in our sitches, personalities and comments to others? I am nearly always working up a response to someone's post and them BAM...there's Sage typing my exact sentiment!

Now this latest deal with your H, I could copy and use as a foundation for a discussion with CJ right now.
\
I am CONVINCED the same issues are at work for us. So I'm going to thread steal (mine's so boring these days!) and do some work here, okay??

1. h believes that I will never trust him again ("I KNOW you. You will NEVER trust me again

Despite my verbal assurances, I'm sure CJ feels this way too. And you know what? I'm NOT sure I can ever really trust him...I mean I DO, daily...but there are those moments when he's been on his laptop for hours...when I ask and he says he's downloading tunes (but there was all this typing!!) when I have a "moment".

To date, to my credit, THANK GOD! I have not mentioned these feelings. I really don't think it would serve any good, as I've come to learn that the most basic trust is in MYSELF...that no matter what I could handle it and have a good life.

But what your posts really help me see is how CJ might be feeling through all of this.

2. h believes that I have forgiven him but that I haven't forgotten and that the A is in the forefront of my mind


You got me beat here...not only is CJ not sure I've completely forgiven him, neither am I. ....The A's, yes...but the nasty hurtful treatment of me during that whole time...not quite there yet. I just don't understand it yet, but maybe I need to let go of that need to KNOW and figure everything out. (that's my analytical side)

I really don't know (do we need a talk?) if CJ thinks the As are in my mind daily, but frankly...sometimes they are. Or at least bits and pieces when I'm feeling low.

I DO know that he made a point of telling me there's been no contact with OW...I hadn't really thought there was.

3. h says that he doesn't think he will ever forgive himself


I think this one scares me the most. CJ said the same thing. Last time I asked him (we did a % thing, I thought I was at about 90% forgiveness)...he said he was at less than 10%.

This worries me as guilt and shame...not great for self esteem, not great for someone who's depression prone, and if you feel you're a bad person...what's stopping you from doing MORE wrong???

4. h says that my desire to talk about the A is counter to his desire NOT to talk about it. He said that I ASSume that I will gain more HEALING than he will "lose" in the discussion.



I think you two had OUR argument! CJ hasn't come right out and said he doesn't like to discuss the A or OW, but it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that he doesn't approve. He withdraws, he points out that we need to look ahead....

Heaven help me...but I DO look to gain healing from such discussions and NEVER even thought about what it cost him. ...Maybe thinking that it WAS his mess, maybe it should cost a bit to help clean it up?

5. h wanted to hear the reasons why I still wanted to be M to him...this actually seemed like a very big part of the conversation

6. h said he thinks I've defaulted to the "devil" I "know" (doesn't feel CHOSEN)



I think CJ is far to frightened to even ask this of me...or even contemplate it. After all, HE cheated twice, HE lied his a$$ off, he lost his job, I'm still making most of the income (since 2002), and our sex life is in the toilet.

I can totally see CJ as feeling like the default option, and a broken one at that..good heaven's that CAN'T be good for his libido!!

7. h said that he couldn't imagine us ever apart -- that I am part of his DNA


That is awesome. CJ has said that he wants to be with me forever...that he will NEVER let anything like the A's happen again....but DNA? it doesn't GET any tighter than that!

8. H asked to hear praise for how hard he's been working -- to hear appreciation for the good stuff that he's been doing for our M (WOA?? My h? )



2X4 on the head for Shiny...CJ's been laying hints about how hard he's working on various projects, resumes, interviews for volunteer boards, and what did I do on Monday?

Came home exhausted: 6 hours on my feet teaching, then I hit two grocery stores, the mall and a bakery on the way home. I was visibly grumpy so he asked.

I noted my sore feet, my exhaustion, my period had started, I hadn't had time for lunch...And it seems like if this house is to get cleaned I'M the one who has to start it!!!

OMG...the poor guy stopped working on his laptop and cleaned the bathroom and kitchen floors. Before he got too far along I told him I didn't mean for him to do it all NOW...just that it would be nice once in a while not to come home to such a mess.

I have to remember that he just doesn't SEE the dirt, cat hair, etc. like I do. He's content.

I really need to give him more praise and NOTE the little niceties.


10. h doesn't want to "pay" for this for the rest of his life

11. Part of "trust" to h means not only that I believe in his fidelity but also that I "trust" him as he is ("unconditional love")



CJ too expressed fears of having to "Pay" forever...but what do they mean by this? I'm pretty sure, Sage, that like me, you're not hitting your H over the head with this on an ongoing basis...

And then I feel that I DO have to "pay" for this forvever myself...why shouldn't he?

But maybe your next point hits home:

12. h said that his fear was that he'd go merrily along only to hit "landmines" because of something he said or did that triggered the A in my mind. It seems like the unpredictability is a BIG factor for him (would it help to be more clear with him about what my triggers are?). He used the word "LANDMINE" quite a bit



I think CJ feels this way too...because all it can take is a clue on Jeopardy that deals with the Province OW lives in and he KNOWS I'm thinking about all of that.

Or does he? He may be walking on eggshells awaiting those landmines just like your H. So SHOULD we be more clear on our triggers?

Shows with A-themes (especially made light of), mention of OW's home province, anything Jodie Foster ( one of my and CJ's former favourite actresses...I intuited, and later had confirmed that he thought OW looked like Jodie, mentioned it to her, and watched whatever he could of Jodie while they were apart and longing for eachother...grrrr )....

...the times of year when the big bombs hit. When he mentions jobs that would have him flying to large cities. When he's on that laptop for a loong time...just can't help that one, it's how he communicated with HER.

Now it's time for me to digest all of this...thanks for the unwitting homework, Sage!!

Shiny

[sage]

More homework for you Ms. shiny:

My thread in the KLA forum

It's really not MORE, I just recently added additional thoughts to it on my "list".

I feel like the key for me has gotta be: appreciate what I have, articulate to h my appreciation (in a variety of formats) and learn how to express AND hear issues and concerns before they become huge screaming arguments OR slow festering sores.

That's all.

Sage

PS Or Michele might sum it up: more of what works, less of what doesn't

[JinBklyn]

Like another whack to the head this morning I realized how accusatory my interaction with h was this weekend. Ugh. I bemoan how he won't "help" me heal but I neglect the fact that I don't ASK him or even articulate to him ways that he could help...instead I sit on stuff and then accuse him.

Ahhh. Yes. This is exactly what I do. On TOP of it all, I LOOK for things he does or doesn't do that indicate that he doesn't want to help me heal. Ugh. Thanks for this, Sage. Good Lord! Where were you when I started this journey! (I know, I know, you were here all along.)

Interesting what H2H was saying over on your KLA thread, about men not wanting to talk about As because it makes MORE stress for them, even while it takes stress AWAY from us. S. recently told me (even as he's made an effort to be open about remaining contact with OW) that he DOESN'T want to talk about it, but is, because it makes me feel better.

But what is better? It always seems to make me feel worse. It brings up all kinds of old bad feelings, feelings of inadequacy, feelings of his choosing her over me (or at least HIM over US), feelings of jealousy, etc. Do you feel this way when you talk to your H, too?

I wonder if it really does make it better to talk about it, or if we just need to work through it on our own. I WANT to talk about it, but I wonder if it's just because it makes me feel "better" to be "right."

Hmmm.

Jennifer

[sage]

Jennifer --

S. recently told me (even as he's made an effort to be open about remaining contact with OW) that he DOESN'T want to talk about it, but is, because it makes me feel better.

I think this is such a positive for you!

I think that part of the reason I get hung up is that I think h should (that bad word!) be willing to talk to me even if he doesn't FEEL like it -- and I also think sometimes that I cling to this because he won't but if he DID then maybe I wouldn't feel the need to talk.

Yikes. what a confusing sentence.

But what is better? It always seems to make me feel worse. It brings up all kinds of old bad feelings, feelings of inadequacy, feelings of his choosing her over me (or at least HIM over US), feelings of jealousy, etc. Do you feel this way when you talk to your H, too?

Well...like I said, we don't actually talk about it...I think I feel this way when we don't! I'm perfectly capable of making myself feel like crud all on my own at times

It's interesting, though, that the discussions don't seem to be helping you feel better...maybe it's time to consider letting go of them?

also, in my sitch, I know who the ow was -- knew her quite well, in fact -- don't know if that's true for you or not -- so there isn't mystery around HER or what she's like, etc. Don't need those details!

I WANT to talk about it, but I wonder if it's just because it makes me feel "better" to be "right."

This may well be worth more thought for you...I know for myself that when I get mired in dwelling in the past and THEN break out of it, I have a bad feeling -- that I've been still wanting my h to PAY for it, or even trying to make HIM feel badly by staying stuck.

The other thing being mired in the past "helps" in is keeping me from facing my own contributions to our m problems -- not just then but NOW -- IOW, I can get stuck in "well, of course I feel unsure about this because of his A" when in fact, it's 10 other things w/in my control.

Sage

[sage]

Let's see...how'd I do with my mission yesterday (to steal from MF!)

QT: Yup -- spent some time in the AM and then watched TV in the PM

AOS: scored 10 on this I think -- picked h up at the train -- I had gone to the supermarket before he got there and bought stuff for dinner --

WOA: Hmmm...I think I did ok but not sure how pointed I was. I find that I give him a lot of compliments but maybe direct appreciation for ACTION would be better

PT: some snuggling but still a bit gunshy about initiating...

*********
Today??

QT: It's errand night so we'll have plenty of QT together (he should probably get the kudos for putting up with that!)

AOS: Ran the dishwasher this AM -- scored some points because we don't have a lot of time in the morning but I was very efficient!

WOA: not yet

PT: Hmmm...

Feeling good. had a great call with h when he got home from school. Was thinking more this AM about how grumpy and reserved I was last week -- very judgemental and woe is me -- I really think that contributed to the interaction this weekend.

I could have:

Made my needs more clear and/or

Done some things for myself (movie, nails, whatever)

I think either would have helped.

Sage

[Heart2Heart]

I have a question for both you & Jennifer - Have you figured out WHY you still want to talk about the A.?

Both of you have come here, done the work, walked the talk, etc. You both know that the A. was NOT the problem, but a symptom. You both have found (ok, 'sweated') your way back to a committed R.

What will talking about the A. bring (or give) you and the relationship that is missing in the current new R.?

I'm not sure I am articulating this well. I guess I'm asking what's left to say about it, at this point? You've both had conversations about it, both H's feel bad about it, both H's seem to be doing their best to make things better, and I am beginning to understand their POV, that actions speak louder than words, and they are acting lovingly and committed.

Could your questions about the A. be asked in another way? Instead, what led you to the A., or what was being fulfilled, etc. - How about framing questions in the present and future, such as, What gives you the most sense of fulfillment? What do you want from me the most? I'm having trouble coming up those good questions, but I think you understand the point. Rather than digging through the past, how about asking something inspiring about the present & future?

Warning: I ask this of Sage & Jennifer because they've been through a lot of the stuff already. I wouldn't be asking the same question of someone much earlier in the process.

Hugs,
-H2H

[psluke]

Ms. Sage,

Some awesome stuff going on here on your thread!

I love H2H's questions. I think I am going to try to answer them for myself. Because I still wish I knew who, what, when.

On the other hand it now makes no difference in my sitch and in a way not in yours either as you are moving forward and building a new R and have no need to take the garbage with you, stuff it in a box and throw it out the window!

Hope you are having a great evening.

[sage]

Had a great night and did OK with my mission --

QT: went grocery shopping and then hung out on the couch watching TV. Didn't focus on any topics of particular interest to h but being sort of mellow and quiet is always a good thing. Talked this AM about some sports stuff and school stuff so I'm hoping he's feeling my interest in his life!

WOA: Well...h made this one BIG TIME easy....got home last night to (drumroll) DINNER ready and waiting!!!! I was totally shocked and delighted and told him so! Also, h had emptied the dishwasher, too!

PT: Snuggled on the couch but still hoping for more

In terms of speaking MY LL, h certainly performed multiple AOS. Also, he talked with me a bit about $$ which made me feel very positive -- I think one of my LL's is "disclosure"

**********
Tonight we're going out to dinner for my brother's bday (he turned 15 yesterday). Tomorrow we both have studying to do and then we're going to a BBQ -- h's closest friend has moved back to the area from out of state so we're visiting him (and w and 2 kids) at their new house. Sunday more studying I think -- I'm hoping to do some stuff around the house as well.

Leaving at noon today to go hang with my (very pregnant) younger sister!

Sage

[sage]

I have a question for both you & Jennifer - Have you figured out WHY you still want to talk about the A.?

What will talking about the A. bring (or give) you and the relationship that is missing in the current new R.?

H2H -- You've asked an interesting series of questions...and I spent much of last night and this AM thinking about my answer. I think it would be best served by sort of a brainstorming/journalling approach followed up with some analysis on my part...not sure how far I'll get on this today but let's get started

If I had to sum it up I would say that I want to hear from my h that he "GETS IT", where "it" actually encompasses a great deal. I want to hear that he's thought about what he was feeling prior to the pivot point of embarking upon the A (and I recognize that perhaps that reflects a logic and reasonableness that doesn't exist at that time) SO I also want to hear what he understands about himself and his feelings around the time that he was lying to my face about his involvement with OW.

IOW, I'd LOVE to have him say "moments before I crossed the line I felt X, Y and Z" but recognizing that that may not be possible I'd like to hear "In the 6 months OF the EA, I felt X, Y and Z during the conversations where you brought up your fears and I lied to you".

I'd like to hear that he understands it was a slippery slope (given that OW was a "friend" before EA) and that he thinks he could recognize the warning signs.

I'd like to hear that he understands now how he was feeling either about his life in general or our M or a combination and that he now knows he could choose other forms of "pain relief" and/or other ways of articulating his worries/pain/despair to me.

I guess my point is this...I'd like to know from my h that if he finds himself in a situation where he FEELS a particular way that he realizes there are other ways to react. And also that he realizes that his FEELINGS don't necessarily represent the absolute truth of a situation and may need to be investigated further.

For example...let's suppose that h feels some disatisfaction in certain areas of our M, and that he also feels some disatisfaction in certain areas of his life in general and he feels say, ANGER or FEAR or WORRY or WHATEVER....and he finds that he feels better when he's with OW so he focuses on that...and he starts to compare OW with me and becomes convinced that I am one way, unchangeable, and that we must be doomed.

OR, does he GET that yah, I bring something to the table and so does he and that our M, his life is gonna take on a particular tone when looked at through the glamour/excitement of OW and the A and that perhaps bringing HOME some of that enthusiasm and sharing might have helped US?

There are times when I think that my h is still very much "either/or" -- or "black/white" about our M - that he clings to some of the beliefs/myths that Michele lays out -- that if he doesn't feel LOVE then we're doomed, that conflict = disaster, that if it feels like work sometimes then it must not be true love, etc.

As I'm writing this, though, I'm reminded that with the exception of the A, my h's approach to life, problem solving, our M while totally different than mine, is perfectly valid and oftentimes MUCH more workable/productive/etc than mine and that once I GET that and embrace it we're fine.

Am I making any sense? I want to hear that h has held up what happened and thought about "how did I get there? how did we get there? and how can we be sure it never happens again?"

And...I know it hurts like hell to take a close look at the times when you've screwed up and hurt other people and made crappy choices and reacted out of fear -- I know this because I've spent A LOT of the last two years poking at my own behavior and wounds and sometimes it just sucks...but I honestly believe it minimizes the chances of my behaving those ways again...and I'd selfishly (!!!!!) like to hear that my h gets that too.

I KNOW this is selfish and focusing on HIM and unforgiving in some ways and maybe even a bit unfair...

You asked if there were other ways to frame the question/conversation ...I guess I'd say that I want some confidence that we can navigate difficult situations in our M, that we can articulate issues/pain/worries/fears without involving other people or feeling like D is the answer. And maybe I have that already...or I'm on my way there and it's enough to just focus on that. No doubt.

Sage