How on earth does he answer this? My wife has said this to me probably a dozen times, and there seems to be something in the LD personality that goes basically like this:
"Our current situation is bad, But you say you want it to get better. You've told me what YOU need for it to get better, And you've even asked me what I need from YOU. But any improvement I make to give you more of what you need, Because I know how far you'd ULTIMATELY like this to go, I feel like it won't be good enough. And therefore I can never truly make you happy, no matter how much I improve the in the desire/LM dept."
Somewhere in the heart of each of us, we want to be loved & accepted just as we are. Even when we're being really big sh*ts, there's a certain amount of fear & hurt (and the subsequent desire to build protective walls) involved when we're told that something about us needs to change.
What we want from each other can often be so nebulous to our spouse. Even when we get specific: "I need more sex" often DOES become "I need you to want me." "I need you to desire me and make love to me" can move on to "I would really like us to do XXX tonight when we make love, now that we're making love and you want me."
So, are the suspicions really so groundless?
Somewhere trust & tenderness toward each other has been lost, damaged, never established or destroyed.
Quote: I fear our marriage, no matter how good it is, will never be good enough for you, and neither will I.
To me, this is just one of those copout bullsh!t lines that should never be tolerated in a marriage. It is self serving and overly dramatic. It is also a smokescreen designed to throw the other person off of the original point.
I HATE comments like this, can you tell!
I think the best way to respond to drama is with logic so I would tell her that of course the marriage will be enough for you, but at the current stage..calling 911, etc, no it isn't.
Having said that, Hairy, I'm gonna put the screws to ya. I don't think you really sent that email with the proper YK spirit. That is, I don't think you really ARE ready to forgive her. She knows this..senses it..and so she responded with a little aggression of her own. Perhaps the reason you sent it was to get a little dig in at her? A "I will forgive you since you are such a bitch and that allows me to take the high road.." I'm not saying this is what you did; I am just throwing out some food for thought. Even if you didn't feel this way, it is obvious that this is how she interpreted it.
Cause, really Hairy, DO you forgive her for being so cold to you all the time? If you do, then hats off to you and I really mean that. I don't have it in me to be that giving and I wish I did.
One more thing: I think the "move" thing is a thinly disguised way of saying that she wants you to appreciate her as a wife. That is, she is basically saying No I won't f*ck you but I DID move across the state and agree to live 2 minutes away from your crazy xwife..doesn't THAT count for anything?!
I don't know how to tell you how to get out of that pickle. On one hand, yes she deserves some whoppin credit for making the move to be with you and on the other, it still doesn't exempt her from ML to you and being a wife in the full sense of the word.
I think some brutal honesty is just what the doctor ordered--from you to her and from her to you. You are dancing around each other sending falsely conciliatory messages when what you really want to do is blast the crap outta each other.
My vote is to blast away and then when everything is finally on the table, you will know if she ever intends to work on becoming sexual and she will know if you ever intend on appreciating her sacrifices in a way that speaks to her (ie, moving to a different place or whatever it is she wants).
I hope this doesn't offend you. You know I have your very best interests at heart. This might be a crossroads for you two and my wish is that it is the GOOD fork in the road that is taken this time.
I don't know how to tell you how to get out of that pickle. On one hand, yes she deserves some whoppin credit for making the move to be with you and on the other, it still doesn't exempt her from ML to you and being a wife in the full sense of the word.
I think some brutal honesty is just what the doctor ordered--from you to her and from her to you. You are dancing around each other sending falsely conciliatory messages when what you really want to do is blast the crap outta each other.
My vote is to blast away and then when everything is finally on the table, you will know if she ever intends to work on becoming sexual and she will know if you ever intend on appreciating her sacrifices in a way that speaks to her (ie, moving to a different place or whatever it is she wants).
AOL! (Translates to "I agree").
At some point honesty, painful as it might be, has got to come to the forefront. No euphemisms. No high-flyin', deep-soundin' phrases. No more quietly trying to do some list of things in the hopes that the light will dawn in your partner.
Expect anger. But at some point, you will know where both of you stand.
What HP said in her nice, clearly expressed, supportive manner was exactly what I was trying to say in my GeneralMojo hard*ss, semi-joking manner with the fake e-mail. I'm sorry I wasn't more sensitive in my approach. Maybe I am emotionally retarded, though I would prefer to think of myself as emotionally challenged or perhaps more accurately emotionally under-priviledged.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: What we want from each other can often be so nebulous to our spouse. Even when we get specific: "I need more sex" often DOES become "I need you to want me." "I need you to desire me and make love to me" can move on to "I would really like us to do XXX tonight when we make love, now that we're making love and you want me."
In some odd way I think the LD spouse contributes a lot to this predicament. For instance, if my H had approached me for sex every two weeks on a regular basis, I never would have considered myself to be in a SSM, even though my preference would be for around 3x a week. IMO the upward spiraling expectations of the HD spouse are a direct result of the fact that their LD spouse has informed them or led them to believe that they really don't need sex at all. Based on this information, there is no way for the HD partner to determine what might be a reasonable sexual equilibrium.
Here's the analogy. There are two boys Harry and Hank. They both really like cookies. Every night before bed Hank and his Mom sit together and have 2 cookies for dessert. They both enjoy cookies and each others company. Hank learns to expect and accept 2 cookies as what he needs to satisfy his sweet tooth.
Next door, Harry's Mom doesn't really like to bake because she doesn't have a sweet tooth and she certainly isn't motivated to bake for Harry when he misbehaves. Harry alternates between being a very good boy in order to get cookies or throwing tantrums to get cookies. He eventually starts to think of cookies as both tokens of his Mother's love and a reward he earns for asserting his ego strength. He feels neglected when he looks into his neighbor's window and sees Hank and his Mom enjoying a snack together. He tells himself he must be a very bad boy and begins to cry, but some little rational voice within him tells him that he deserves cookies as much as the next kid. Hank is just as naughty as him. Why does he get cookies?
Harry's mother isn't happy about the situation either. Harry's behavior is erratic. He is either far too clingy for a boy his age or he is throwing a tantrum and calling her a terrible mother or he is spending all his time at Hank's house. When she looked out her kitchen window, she saw Harry smiling such a sweet smile at Hank's mother as she handed him a cookie.
Finally, Harry's mother decides that the battles over the cookies need to end. She buys a copy of "The Joy of Cookies" at her local bookstore and sets out to become the best baker she can be. Harry is so happy. Finally he is getting some cookies! The first week Harry's mom gives him cookies for dessert on 2 nights. This seems reasonable to her. Harry being a smart boy understands that his mom is only baking to please him so he figures he might as well go for the gold and get all the cookies he can, so he tells his mom that he would like to have 6 cookies every night. Now that he has a willing baker, Harry feels free to happily dream all the cookie fantasies that only made him sad before, so he browses through cookbooks and shows his mom pictures of all the cookies that look especially delicious to him.
Harry's mother feels oppressed. She is spending far more time baking than she would like and she's annoyed with the fact that as soon as she masters chocolate chip, Harry points to a picture of some sort of complicated Danish cookie that requires special equipment to bake. Why can't she have the kind of kid who wants a Mom who plays soccer? She's good at soccer.
Anyone still reading?
My obvious point is that if Harry's mother just keeps baking cookies on a regular basis, eventually Harry's desire for cookies will reach an equilibrium like his friend Hank. Also, there's a very good chance that Harry's mother will only have to bake those complicated Danish cookies a couple times before Harry decides that there is a good reason why most people don't eat those kind of cookies on a regular basis. Once Harry's blood sugar is stabilized by a regular, reasonable diet of cookies, he will generally be in a much better mood and I'm sure Hank will enjoy coming over sometimes to join Harry and his mom for a backyard game of soccer.
P.S. I have to admit that your post made me think "I wonder what XXX thing Mrs. NOP doesn't want to do.". NOPkins seems to be an especially greedy little gourmet. Danish cookies are probably nothing to him. You're probably going to have to go to a rare book dealer to buy cookbooks in order to find recipes for the kind of cookies he's looking for.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: My obvious point is that if Harry's mother just keeps baking cookies on a regular basis, eventually Harry's desire for cookies will reach an equilibrium like his friend Hank. Also, there's a very good chance that Harry's mother will only have to bake those complicated Danish cookies a couple times before Harry decides that there is a good reason why most people don't eat those kind of cookies on a regular basis. Once Harry's blood sugar is stabilized by a regular, reasonable diet of cookies, he will generally be in a much better mood and I'm sure Hank will enjoy coming over sometimes to join Harry and his mom for a backyard game of soccer.
NOP has said a similar thing: "Her desire may not be as strong as mine, but I have no doubt whatsoever that it is as deep as mine. That is why I am becoming more sure that the delineation between HD/LD becomes blurred in a properly functioning relationship."
Quote: I have to admit that your post made me think "I wonder what XXX thing Mrs. NOP doesn't want to do
:snort: I didn't even have my personal situation in mind when posting that. However, now that you mention it, I did run across a piece of paper with the phrase "East Asian Basket" on it - I thought NOP was putting together a Pier One shopping list...
Quote: He eventually starts to think of cookies as both tokens of his Mother's love and a reward he earns for asserting his ego strength. He feels neglected when he looks into his neighbor's window and sees Hank and his Mom enjoying a snack together. He tells himself he must be a very bad boy and begins to cry, but some little rational voice within him tells him that he deserves cookies as much as the next kid. Hank is just as naughty as him. Why does he get cookies?
Or, Harry's mother can take him to a really good shrink, who can teach him that he is in fact lovable, normal, healthy, and that his expectations for cookies as proof of his mother's love is only his reality, not that what is truth.
Harry's shrink can also teach the mother that baking cookies is something Harry would very much like to do with her, because he loves cookies and wants to share that love with his mother. Harry's mother can learn to expand her expression of love by learning to bake cookies, simply because she loves Harry -- not because she has to prove anything, or fix anything, or meet any kind of minimum requirement set forth by Harry.
Harry and his mother, working together, can find equalibrium. Working against one another, they will both be miserable -- and it has nothing to do whatsoever with the family next door.
I think that you are absolutely right in your description of the attitudes Harry and his mother need to adopt. I think you are dead wrong when you say it has nothing whatsoever to do with the family next door.
Once an HD person gets rid of their feelings of "emotional fusion" and accepts the fact that cookies = love is not necessarily a law of nature, the fact remains that the HD person still has a sweet tooth. Speaking from my own experience, "differentiation" did nothing to decrease my sex drive, it just allowed me to claim it as my own. Once you claim your sex drive as your own, you are free to consider expressing it in any way that is in line with your integrity. So you will naturally consider whether you might get more or better cookies if you were to let the Mom next door adopt you.
You want your H to choose to love you. The only way he can choose is if he has a choice. Part of having a choice is considering whether soccer and some cookies at home is better than no soccer and lots of cookies next door.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Her desire may not be as strong as mine, but I have no doubt whatsoever that it is as deep as mine
I'm not getting the distinction.
Mojo, I ADORE your analogies. I also think and express myself in analogies, and one time when I was tossing them out left and right, my bf accused me of "dumbing down" my conversation by using analogies. I was using a lot of musical and gardening analogies that day. He said I was patronizing him because I thought he was too stupid to understand if I "told it to him straight-- just the facts!" I pointed out that I use musical and gardening analogies not just because he is into music and gardening, but because I AM TOO. I also pointed out that analogies and metaphors were an effective and time-honored way of expressing abstract ideas, and that even Jesus spoke in parables. He said that proved his point-- that the apostles were too dumb to understand him any other way!
Quote: Harry's shrink can also teach the mother that baking cookies is something Harry would very much like to do with her, because he loves cookies and wants to share that love with his mother. Harry's mother can learn to expand her expression of love by learning to bake cookies, simply because she loves Harry -- not because she has to prove anything, or fix anything, or meet any kind of minimum requirement set forth by Harry.
What if Harry's mother doesn't want to go along with this plan? Life with Harry is just fine if she learns to ignore his pissy moods and his temper tandrums. Harry eventually learns that his mom isn't going to make the cookies on a regular basis, so he learns to like carrots, which mom has plenty of, can be eaten raw, and aren't so bad really.
