Our Sat nite date nite went well...it really is a keeper. There are no games about who is going to initiate or whether it will be a sex nite...we both make it happen. Cemar just posted about a book he read where sex should be the last thing to work on in the marriage, but I have to disagree. If you can commit to a regular schedule of ML, all the issues start to come out just by making the sex happen in a consistent way.
On Mon. H initiated just as I was about to fall asleep. Seems when he feels no pressure from me he can relax and get going. Of course, I did not want to miss the opportunity to ML, so I went with it, even though it was a less than optimal time for me.
I started to think how unfair this all is--H controls initiation for the most part, and I have to be on his schedule. On Wed. I decided to be the initiator and it turned out to be a disaster. He was most definitely not in the mood, just wanted to go to sleep, and was very cold in his rejection. I couldn't HOM and started crying my eyes out. The following convo ensued: H: Why are you so upset? Some nites I just want to go to sleep...what is the big deal? J: You just stay so stubborn...on Mon. I was not really in the mood, but went along with it and it ended up being nice. H: You could turn me down if you want...and I won't react like this. J: ( Has an insight). Yes, you are entitled to turn me down, but it's the way you go about it that sets me off...you get all tense and angry, and I feel so hurt H: I feel I have to act that way or I won't get through to you; you'll just keep trying and trying, and I know when I am just not in the mood. J: (remembers something from the modified Cemar list) I think you can approach the rejection in a gentler way, and say something like, " Honey, I am not feeling up to ML tonite, but I'll take a raincheck for tomorrow." H: Well why can't we wait til Sat? We already ML'd 2x this week...aren't you happy with that? J: Yes, but it's not set in stone; we had agreed to at least 2x a week. I don't want sex every day, but it's nice to have some leeway. H: I have a rough week ahead...I would like to wait til Sat. J: I am not okay with that. After you reject me, I really feel awful and I feel the caring thing to do is for you to make it up to me the next day.
Nothing was finalized, and we went to sleep. The next day, he calls me and says, " Let's find the time tonight to have some fun..I think you know what I mean."
So we did, in fact, ML last nite...it was very intimate, and I said to him that I feel close to him. He says back, "You don't have to have sex to feel close to me." I let that comment go, and we did experience a certain closeness, and afterwards he said that it really did feel so nice.
So we are muddling through... he feels controlled by me--he feels pressure. He doesn't equate ML with closeness. He doesn't view sex as just a way to relax from the stresses of life. He doesn't understand what the rejection does to me. He can't turn a "no" into a maybe.
IHJ said: --------- I have a lot of work ahead of me ---------
True, but BOTH of you are now working the plow.
This is very exciting!
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
So NOP, I feel myself wandering off the path again. Seems like W pushes the plow with me for a day or so, then loses interest and I'm left pushing it alone again. She's feeling pressured and making me feel awful about pushing myself. What to do??
I meant that sex is the last issue to get resolved (if ever). You need to work on that all along. So as the couple works on all the "needs" in marriage, the need for "Sexual Fulfillment" is the one that will ususally be met last. It is hardest to achieve. This is why less then 25% of all marriages actually achieve the status of "Passionate Marriage".
GGB wrote: ------------ So NOP, I feel myself wandering off the path again. Seems like W pushes the plow with me for a day or so, then loses interest and I'm left pushing it alone again. She's feeling pressured and making me feel awful about pushing myself. What to do ------------
You bring the plow and the rows to be hoed back to her attention. The fact is that the rows need to be plowed, or there will be no crop.
Don't lose site of two things. 1) There is work to be done. 2) The work requires two people to accomplish.
Don't expect that you won't grunt, swear, sweat, and smell bad along the way. Both of you will. The work has to be done regardless.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
cemar wrote: ----------- ...the need for "Sexual Fulfillment" is the one that will ususally be met last. It is hardest to achieve. This is why less then 25% of all marriages actually achieve the status of "Passionate Marriage" -----------
Hmmm.....
Since MrsNOP and I have essentially arrived at a "passionate marriage", where are the pollsters and census takers? How do we add our number to the 25 percent? Hell, I didn't even know that there was an official count!
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
IHJ, I see tons of positives in your interaction with your H! I think it's great!
Quote: J: I am not okay with that. After you reject me, I really feel awful and I feel the caring thing to do is for you to make it up to me the next day.
Nothing was finalized, and we went to sleep. The next day, he calls me and says, " Let's find the time tonight to have some fun..I think you know what I mean."
So we did, in fact, ML last nite...it was very intimate, and I said to him that I feel close to him. He says back, "You don't have to have sex to feel close to me." I let that comment go, and we did experience a certain closeness, and afterwards he said that it really did feel so nice.
He heard you. He responded.
Quote: He doesn't equate ML with closeness. He doesn't view sex as just a way to relax from the stresses of life.
Don't focus so much on whether he sees sex the same way you do. It IS controlling to try to insist someone experience something the same way you do. Focus on the fact that he heard what you said about your feelings and he came through for you. I'm afraid that if you ignore or diminish the significance of this, you're going hurt your goals in the long run.
Finally, he's also telling you something that he may like to see from you.
Quote: He says back, "You don't have to have sex to feel close to me." I let that comment go, and we did experience a certain closeness
Perhaps he needs you to expand your own ways of feeling close to him. Sex is and may always be your favorite and the easiest for you. That's fine. If it seems like it is the only way and saying no to you is going to send you into a state, then he's going to experience pressure.
The way an "LD" spouse can move most quickly to addressing their spouse's needs is to be willing to acknowledge that sex for some people generates feelings of closeness rather than sex resulting from a sense of closeness. For the "HD" person, they can work on expanding their repetoire (sp?) for feeling close, start consciously looking for other times and ways that lead to connection and not diminishing their significance because they aren't SEX.
As you know I am now a pusher of "self-revelation" so I think your convo was good.
Quote: ( Has an insight). Yes, you are entitled to turn me down, but it's the way you go about it that sets me off...you get all tense and angry, and I feel so hurt
Why did you feel hurt? The obvious reason is that your H rejected you in a jerky manner. But what was the thought that was making you cry? I doubt that you were just thinking "My H is a jerk.". You were probably having some more complicated thought involving feelings of vulnerability, love and loss. Because I love to give advice that I have a hard time following myself, I will suggest that the next time you are hurt by rejection, you should give voice to the thoughts that are making you cry even though that will probably make you feel incredibly vulnerable. "Holding on to yourself" doesn't have to be a silent process.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: This is why less then 25% of all marriages actually achieve the status of "Passionate Marriage"
According to Schnarch less than 20% of the population knows what it means to "f*ck", "be done" or "do" someone. If this is to be believed, I would think that 25% is a recklessly high estimate for number of Passionate Marriages. IMO it might even be a high estimate for Reasonably Content Marriages.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Yesterday was Yom Kippur. We are not religious in the conventional sense, so instead of going to synagogue, we took a family trip to the beach. I had plenty of time to reflect while walking on the boardwalk. I told my H that I was working on forgiving hurts from the past, and he commented that he feels I hold onto things for too long, and if I could try to start each day as a new day. We both agreed we wanted to have a closer marriage, for our sake and for the example it would set for the kids.
We talked a bit about our sex life. He said that my new found sexuality turned him off because he didn't understand where it was coming from, and it didn't feel like it was about him. I reminded him that I wasa sexual person when we met and that I had been making the effort to get back to myself. I told him again how his rejection sets me back, and he said that he realizes he can be a lot nicer about it.
We wanted to do something special last nite, and decided to go to a restaurant that we hadn't been to in ages; it used to be one of my parents' favorite places to go, and they had hosted a party there when my daughter was born. I wasn't prepared for the emotional reaction that I had when we got there; my eyes were tearing throughout the meal and I kept going over to the bathroom to regroup. My H tried to lighten it up, but in the end he just held my hand and we got through dinner.
Had this happened a week ago, I would have been anxious to go home and ML, but something is changing inside of me. I recognize that while it's great that I have my sexuality back, I am partly using it as a way to escape some feelings. That's a big burden to place on my H. I had been thinking about something GM posted here...that in the past my H has not been there for me emotionally, and by my insisting on an intense sexual connection, it was my way of trying to feel secure with him.
I have decided right now to take a step backwards and appraoch the marriage more in terms of trust and intimacy, and put aside the sex for the moment. I asked H if we could spend a half hr each day to just cuddle, touch and explore each other without ML.
This AM we cuddled for a long time. We are going later to pick up a new puppy! Have a great day everyone!
