Next level?

[honeypot]

Corri:
I had a couple thoughts for you, but I don't know how much they will help.

First of all, when you PM'd your H and asked for more intimacy, what was the "or else" part of the equation? Did he take that seriously?
IOW, what is his motivation--at this time--to meet your needs?

Secondly, if this is not second nature to him...and it doesn't sound like it is...does he have a clear idea what you are asking from him?
I have NO doubt (lol) that you have given examples, etc, but does he know how to proceed?

I found with H that he had no idea where to start. I could give examples til the cows came home and it meant nothing to him. They weren't his ideas and they didn't feel right to him, so he resisted. I imagine that I would have resisted as well if he were giving me suggestions on how to better have a spiritual conversation with him. We ALL want acceptance from our mates and it is impossible to feel accepted when they are making "suggestions" on exactly how to proceed. I still do this with my H and I'll leave you one guess as to how many times he has taken me up on my suggestions.

For a brief time, we tried making it lighthearted and a sort of game. That is, we would give each other "homework". That way, the expectations were crystal clear (no ambiguities to fret over, etc). The only thing that wasn't clear was the date or time. For instance, one of my homework requests from him was that he make dinner for me one night.
I figured this accomplished two things: Firstly I would find it romantic that he was cooking just for me; secondly I got a sick thrill out of seeing his sweating and stressed out face in the kitchen where I spend a good portion of my time.
He loved this one! Totally rocked on it and the dinner was great. He even went above and beyond the call of duty and arranged for a babysitter for the time that we ate.

Do you think your H would go for something like this?

The idea was not that it would last forever, but rather to give us a starting point. To acclimate him to being and acting romantic and sexual and to acclimate me to easing into spiritual discussions. These two items, for us, had become SO charged that we couldn't pull it off easily without a certain degree of tension and the feeling that we were being "watched".
The homework (knowing exactly what to do and really wanting to do it well, in order to best show your love) was a way to reconnect with each other.

I have to put this disclaimer in: The games didn't last long cause H totally crapped out on his second assignment and refused to play anymore because he felt it was too hard of a task. (I asked him to think of a love song that reminded him of me...I THOUGHT I was giving him an easy one b/c the previous one required cooking and grocery shopping, etc, but he actually had a terrible time with it and I stubbornly wouldn't let him out of it. So I lost the fun of the game and we no longer do it......but I proved a point, ha! )

Something like this might not work for you, or appeal to you, at all but my point was to get you thinking of creative ways to reconnect. The PM approach works very well in stating what you want from each other, but I do think it is seriously lacking in the loving aspects...I think that might be why Dave and his wife are having success with their PM counselor as well as reading a cheesy sex book together. Not every moment can be about laying it on the line.

Having said that, I will tell you from my own experience that saying and being intimate and romantic is VERY hard for me in the absence of ML.
I don't know what your frequency has dropped to (or if it has dropped at all) but something about the "I will ML only if I feel like it" made my blood run chilly. For starters, it somehow seems contradictory to the PM philosophy (I can't exactly say how or why, I have tons of little kids here right now and I can't think straight) and secondly..

Oh [censored] H is home.
I figured out why it is bothering me from a PM standpoint but will have to finish later.

xo

[SolidMechanic]

Maybe you should question his choices? Is his work more important to him than you? He needs to think about this. And to be fair, you should know this.

The only thing you can do with him is get him to see that he is making a value choice, whether he realizes it or not. And you can make it clear that if he chooses work over you that you are not going to be happy.

SM

[Corri]

Sorry, everyone, for posting and dashing, but I was out hob knobbing with the H yesterday and we got home about midnight.

Thank you, EVERYONE, for all of your responses. I've read them several times now and I'm letting it all soak in.

MPT, YES, I'd very much love your input. How you doin' woman? Great to hear from you!! Was that telepathy or what?!

MoJo:

Don't let your H's lame inability to express his emotions interfere with your progress in enjoying sex.

What if I said, don't let your H's lame ability to have sex interfere with your enjoyment of meaningful emotional connection. See what I mean? There's GOT to be giving on both sides of the equation in order for this to balance out, or at some point, somebody is going to crash and burn. However, the times of do I have sex, what you said above is exactly what I've been doing.

Since I've stopped keeping count and 'staying on top of things,' I'm sure our love life has dwindled back to 1 or 2 times a week. When I said that I make love when I feel like it... please undrestand that I am not 'withholding' from H. I'm not punishing him. I am paying attention to me, my needs and my emotions. This, as opposed to the 'Just Do It,' approach that Michele recommends. I think that phase is very important, kind of the same as using kindling to start a fire... but at some point you've got to add logs to the fire, or it goes out.

So when I want to enjoy sex, I have sex. Otherwise, I don't. See?

First of all, when you PM'd your H and asked for more intimacy, what was the "or else" part of the equation? Did he take that seriously?

What was my 'or else' part? Our sex life. Our relationship. My willingness and commitment to meet him half way in making it better than either of us thought possible. Did he take me seriously? No. Is he starting to? Maybe.

Like I said, we got home about midnight last night. H had not been feeling well on top of that. He gets in bed and I go out to walk the dog. When I come to get into bed, H says to me,

H: "you need to do me." (Now, he's half-joking, but he's 100% serious, if you know what I mean).

M: "I don't need to do anything."

H: "What is that anyway, that 'you do me' stuff."

M: It's in the book. You can read all about it if you like.

H: Whatever. Our sex life sucks. It always has and it always will.

LONG PAUSE

M: I can't even begin to tell you how sorry I am that you feel that way.

Since he's gotten these promotions at work and I've quit my job to be a SAHM and freelance, his contributions IN the house have stopped altogether. He mows the lawn. Do I mind? Not really, and I'm serious.... as long as he doesn't criticize me or my efforts. Then I tell him if he doesn't like the way I am doing something, he is more than welcome to step in and do it himself.

When we do stuff with the family together, it takes him a few hours to be able to disconnect from his work and start enjoying himself. Guys, understand that I am NOT mad at him for this, I am WORRIED about him. My H is a family man. He loves me and he loves his kids... he has the metabolism of a 10 year old... always moving, always going... now he comes home and falls asleep on the couch. All he talks about is work.... when he can talk. He doesn't MIND pitching in and helping me... he literally doesn't have time.

When I say the things to him that you all suggest... I think it's like throwing CeMar's Guide for LDs at them and expecting them to do it all at once... they feel so overwhelmed they just don't try anything at all.

The real root of the problem is that he does not value your needs as much as his own.

I think you hit it square on the head, NOP. This has ALWAYS been a problem for us. He does not think much of women, period. I can see it, but he'd deny that vehemently. I think my H adores me, but I don't think he has a CLUE how to show his love me any other way than he does. I think he can most certainly learn, but he just won't.

I'm almost thinking that his ramping up at work, when we had started planning for him to start 'coasting' so we could start doing the things we want to do, is an avoidance thing. When I asked him why he took this job, he said, "I really don't know. I think I wanted to see if I could rise to the challenge."

He's committed to this job for a year... it is an interim position. But it could very well stretch out to two or three years. He said he'll only do it for a year, but... there's no plan that we have to support this...

Shoot... I have to run. More thoughts later. Thanks guys, very much. Please keep writing.

Corri

[Corri]

More thoughts:

MO: I think the question regarding my H is not if he loves me, but if he loves me more than he fears making himself vulnerable with me.

NOP: I laughed my azz off when you said it might take a baseball bat to get his attetion. I don't think there is a person here who doubts my ability to swing a bat. I'm thinking I need a whole other tactic... the man should be black and blue by now from my bat...

Honey, I think your suggestion of humor has a TON of merit. If I lose my sense of humor right now, we really are going to be up a creek without a paddle. I've really got to start thinking about this... Where the heck is Hairdog when you need his one-liners the most?

Okay... we've got family things lined up today and I've gotta scoot. More later. And thanks again, SO MUCH, everyone...

Corri

[MPT]

Hey Corri,
Maybe some telepathy, but more likely kids back in school, three days of getting tons of stuff done, and then having a moment to say "Now, what do I need to do next?" Then the telepathy may have come in.

I'm doing pretty good. Some minor, minor physical issues...partly do to the sexual activity in my life...maybe that's what got me thinking about checking in.

I don't think there is a person here who doubts my ability to swing a bat. I'm thinking I need a whole other tactic... the man should be black and blue by now from my bat...

This is where my thoughts might apply. I gotta run right now though. Sorry. I will get back to you, unless of course you find the solution on your own.

Best, MPT

[MJontheMend]

What if I said, don't let your H's lame ability to have sex interfere with your enjoyment of meaningful emotional connection. See what I mean? There's GOT to be giving on both sides of the equation in order for this to balance out, or at some point, somebody is going to crash and burn.

I agree, but once again I must protest that in my sich it's always going to be me because it's not like my H is great at doling out the intimacy either. I really wish there was something I felt like I could do besides not being a wimp or losing weight. I know on some level not being a wimp is what I'm doing to increase emotional connection, but it's counter-intuitive even to my H.

I guess that's why I'm encouraging you to keep on truckin' with the sex. At least you know that is something you can do that your H appreciates.

[dazedandconfuzed]

Corri,

I am not meaning to hijack your thread, but I probably am for a minute...if so hit me with that bat.

I need your perspective desperately. You said:

So when I want to enjoy sex, I have sex. Otherwise, I don't. See?

How is this different from me HDW saying "if I want to clean the house I will, if I don't I won't"?

I ask this for two reasons, first to see if someone can explain it to me like I am a two year old so I understand. and second to maybe get you thinking about it a little different.

From my side of the fence, there is not any difference when two people speak differnet LL's. If my W is fueled by my cleaning the house and I am fueled by ML, then is it not the same thing?

It sounds so selfish to me that someone would not do something just because they don't feel like it when the whole goal is to enhance the emotional connection between the two people.

I absolutely hate pulling weeds in the flower beds (that is what my company does) when I come home. I would rather have some of my guys do it and put it on the work schedule. My wife enjoys doing it but gets upset if I don't go out and help her. So even though I hate to do it, I know it builds the EC for her so out I go. If we waited until I wanted to do it, the weeds would overtake the entire property and I would care less. Isn't this the same thing as you mentioned above.

I would love to talk to you one on one because I think you could really open my eyes as to how to get me R turned around. From your posts, I think you are very similar to my W.

[honeypot]

Ok, lass, I'm back.

I figured out why the I'll have sex when I want to statement was bothering me. Not because you shouldn't do that (that is your prerogative, absolutely) but because instead of focusing on YOUR needs and what you want, it becomes a statement of "I will hold H's needs hostage if he doesn't step up to the plate".
I think to effectively pull off the PM strategy, the other partner has to feel that you will go on without them in some fashion. Otherwise all they are going to hear out of the conversation is that their sadistic spouse is going to withhold until they cave.
For instance, if I had said to H "Start having sex with me or else I will not respond when you initiate spiritual discussions" (which btw, he does every day), how do you think he would have responded?
It just doesn't have the punch that it needs because it is a tit for tat scenario.
Making the statement about your needs, and then following it through with action that doesn't involve him is the way to go, imo.
What I did tell my H was: "Start having sex with me or I will either be getting two twin beds for our room, or moving into another room in the house."
So I wasn't holding out on his needs, I was stating what my next move would be that would preserve MY sanity.

I think that a similar move from you would look something like this: Either agree to work on the intimacy and conversations with me, or I will be joining a club that meets 3 nights out of the week and you will be responsible for all household chores and kid duties by yourself.

As far as his job goes, yowza, that is a tough one. I personally would leave it alone for the time being. I think it is an ASPECT of your problem but not the whole thing, kwim?
I believe that he would probably hold out on the intimacy regardless of his job activities because he seems to think that he is not capable of it.
If you are wanting him to cut back on his responsibilities, I would frame it as you needing him fully THERE with the family and leave the sex and R stuff out of it. That's my opinion, anyhoo.


Take care, girl, and keep at it.

Honey

[Corri]

Dazed:

It sounds so selfish to me that someone would not do something just because they don't feel like it when the whole goal is to enhance the emotional connection between the two people.

I think it is very easy for HDs to see this when they are speaking of sex... how is this any different, though, when my H emotionally withholds from me?

I ask my H to fuel my emotional needs, but they continue to be ignored. Yet he feels completely justifed and expects me to meet his needs, even if I don't really feel like it. And I do... as much as I am able, while remaining true to myself.

For me to respond to: "You need to do me," in a sexual way is, for me, emotional mercy sex from him. That line does NOTHING to fuel my love tank or my physical desire. When I initiate sex with my H, I do the things I know he likes so he will respond to me. I do this because I have taken the time to know him. If I just lay there and say, 'you can have sex with me now,' he finds that disgusting. He'd rather just not do it... if I'm not 'into' it, what's the point?

So if he's not 'into' emotionally connecting with me, then all I can go on are my own feelings. He's not being held hostage, I am. For me to respond to half-azzed attempts at communication paralyzes me. I can either give up my needs and accept his emotional mercy sex, or I can say 'no' and be the bad guy for 'rejecting' him, because I'm supposed to know what he meant.

The only way through this labrynth, for me, is to be completely true to myself and what makes me happy. I can provide sex one to two times a week, and be really, really into it. That's what I need and prefer, physically, and I know some of his needs are being met in the process. If H wants sex more than two times a week, he's going to have to step up to the plate and do some things that maybe he doesn't want to do... like 'emotionally' inspire me... for then he is getting what he wants, and so am I.

In the absence of a willing partner, this is all I can do. Honey, Mo, does this address your posts as well?

Now Dazed, think about this. If you are gardening with your wife in hopes of getting sex... that's manipulative. If you are gardening because it makes you feel good about yourself for doing something that makes your wife happy, and you leave it at that... then that is giving.

Corri

[MJontheMend]

For me to respond to: "You need to do me," in a sexual way is, for me, emotional mercy sex from him. That line does NOTHING to fuel my love tank or my physical desire.

Here's a thought. Clearly one of the reasons that my H is responding better to me sexually is that I am more confident. Over the years he tried to tell me that I would get a better response if I was confident, but the more I was rejected the less confident I felt and the more I was rejected. I am going to give your H the benefit of the doubt and assume that he isn't a jerk for saying this to you. My hypothesis is that he is so afraid of rejection, he is afraid of making himself vulnerable by expressing himself in a more emotional manner. For him a "jerky" facade is a protective mechanism in the same way my timidity was for me. If he tries to get you to meet his sexual needs by acting like a jerk, when he is rejected he won't be hurt because you rejected the jerk he was pretending to be not the "real" him. On the other hand, if he opens himself up and tells you he loves you and lets you see just how important your desire is to him and you still reject him, he would be devastated.

The more you reject him sexually, the harder it is going to be for him to approach you in a way that makes him vulnerable. I know it would be hard for you to just keep having sex with him when he wants without getting the level of emotional connection that you need. Perhaps, you could signal him in another way that he would be safe to proceed in a more open manner. The next time he approaches you in such a IMO timid manner, why don't you take it up a notch in terms of EC. I know you won't feel like "doing" him, but why don't you just sit next to him and hold his hand or run your fingers through his hair or give him a hug. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is a jerk and he'll just push you away and repeat his request for some sexual servicing. But maybe I'm right and he just needs a safe place in which to expose his emotions.