just sifting

[sage]

Was I bending over backwards to save my M? No, the issues in your m simply forced you to look at yourself in the mirror Or was I bending over backwards to improve myself/my life? I think the answer to that is obvious but there is a fine line. I wasn't speaking of You or anyone LIKE you I was speaking of those that question every single thing they do and say interms of what their h or w (who mind you has moved out and is blatantly involved with op to the point of allowing their children to share time with them) that will win them over. There comes a point when a little self respect is needed and the lbs shouldn't concern themselves with what the reaction the lying cheating was will have with them and just do what makes them happy.

LL --
So I didn't assume that you were referring to me or "someone like me" -- and I can see from your response that you were more focused on folks who may be DB'ing their hearts out without getting much traction (tho' I don't think that DB'ing is about micromanaging everyword you say with spouse, etc).

It's clear that I'm in some category of "DB my heart out and be lucky enough to have h respond positively and the D be busted" (and Betsey, , I DO consider myself lucky, blessed! yah, "some" skill was involved but so were angels, good timing, some forces of nature and the universe smiling upon me! LUCK!!!). I think there are some people who DB their hearts out and it just doesn't turn around for whatever reason (and note that when I say "DB your heart out" what I'm specifically referring to is setting goals, focusing on YOUR OWN behavior, making changes in yourself, taking to focus off of spouse/OP, et).

But I think that a fair number of people on the BB who get truly stuck because they are unwilling or unable to put the burden of change squarely onto themselves. I responded to your post because I was concerned that newcomers would come over here and say "Yah, why AM I making changes to win back this louse", etc...not because I think every louse should be "won back" but because it can take TIME for the louse to stop being a louse (even MY louse! ) and I worry that some new DB'ers don't get that. The other thing I sometimes see is the scenario of "Yah, I ranted and raved at him for the fifth day in a row...he hates that...I know that...but this DB'ing thing isn't working so I'm giving up".

I realize how lucky I am that h responded and has been very consistent. I am AMAZED at the guts and perseverance and fortitude of so many folks here...I think of it kind of like a diet...it's hard to stay on a diet if you're not seeing results on the scale and I KNOW that my continued DB'ing has been facilitated by the positive reaction I've been lucky enough to receive.

Sage

[sage]

The really sad thing is, if half of them just stopped worrying about the was and just started focusing on improving their own quality of life their was may just get their head out of their a.. and think twice about what they're doing.

I gotta go back to this...isn't getting ones head out of one's A and improving the quality of one's life exactly what Michele articulates as DB'ing? (OK, maybe not the A part ... ) I guess I'm feeling sort of protective about the Db'ing concept...IOW, that the people who are tripping all over themselves to win back the WAS might not be DB'ing to their fullest potential...that if, instead, they focused on themselves, their lives, their goals, that they'd be really DB'ing and who KNOWS what could happen?

Sage

[lostlove]

LL --
So I didn't assume that you were referring to me or "someone like me" -- and I can see from your response that you were more focused on folks who may be DB'ing their hearts out without getting much traction (tho' I don't think that DB'ing is about micromanaging everyword you say with spouse, etc). I'm mostly thinking of those folks who's every breathing moment becomes an obsession with "what can I say/not say, do/not do that will peak their (the was) interest" instead of "what can I do to improve my life and feel better about me regardless of what reaction I get from them (the was)

It's clear that I'm in some category of "DB my heart out and be lucky enough to have h respond positively and the D be busted" (and Betsey, , I DO consider myself lucky, blessed! yah, "some" skill was involved but so were angels, good timing, some forces of nature and the universe smiling upon me! LUCK!!!). I think there are some people who DB their hearts out and it just doesn't turn around for whatever reason (and note that when I say "DB your heart out" what I'm specifically referring to is setting goals, focusing on YOUR OWN behavior, making changes in yourself, taking to focus off of spouse/OP, et). exactly my point! far to many are so consumed by how their was or s will respond to this or that...that they forget all about themselves.

But I think that a fair number of people on the BB who get truly stuck because they are unwilling or unable to put the burden of change squarely onto themselves. I'm sure there are...I've seen them but that's not who I'm refering to. I responded to your post because I was concerned that newcomers would come over here and say "Yah, why AM I making changes to win back this louse", etc...not because I think every louse should be "won back" but because it can take TIME for the louse to stop being a louse (even MY louse! ) and I worry that some new DB'ers don't get that. but it shouldn't be to win anyone back but yourself and if in the end your spouse does come back well then... The other thing I sometimes see is the scenario of "Yah, I ranted and raved at him for the fifth day in a row...he hates that...I know that...but this DB'ing thing isn't working so I'm giving up". sure that happens too but isn't what I was commenting on.

I realize how lucky I am that h responded and has been very consistent. I happy for you and happy that you realize how lucky you are. I am AMAZED at the guts and perseverance and fortitude of so many folks here...I think of it kind of like a diet...it's hard to stay on a diet if you're not seeing results on the scale and I KNOW that my continued DB'ing has been facilitated by the positive reaction I've been lucky enough to receive. not everyone is so lucky.

Sage

[lostlove]

The really sad thing is, if half of them just stopped worrying about the was and just started focusing on improving their own quality of life their was may just get their head out of their a.. and think twice about what they're doing.

I gotta go back to this...isn't getting ones head out of one's A and improving the quality of one's life exactly what Michele articulates as DB'ing? (OK, maybe not the A part ... ) I guess I'm feeling sort of protective about the Db'ing concept...IOW, that the people who are tripping all over themselves to win back the WAS might not be DB'ing to their fullest potential...that if, instead, they focused on themselves, their lives, their goals, that they'd be really DB'ing and who KNOWS what could happen? isn't that pretty much what I said? If the LBS stops playing the control, attachment game and starts bettering their own life the WAS may just wake up and smell the coffee? "act as if" is a db concept no? focussing on oneself instead of the was is a db concept, no? All I'm pointing out is that far to many folks seem to be caught up in a web of if I dress this way, talk this way, do this or do that it may elicit this or that reaction from the was...rather than thinking "gee, I'd like to feel better about myself so I'll do this or that" if it works I'll do more of it. I'm not attacking db at all...I'm simply pointing out that this bb doesn't seem to be much of a db site if you really look around.


Sage

---

[Johanna]

The key word here is MAY. Or they might not even notice, either. All of the effort that LL has put into making her M turn around and only small improvements that are temporary are hard to take after awhile. LL, I know that you still have a glimmer of hope, but do what you have to do for yourself.

((((((LL))))))

JoJo

[sage]

IOW, that the people who are tripping all over themselves to win back the WAS might not be DB'ing to their fullest potential...that if, instead, they focused on themselves, their lives, their goals, that they'd be really DB'ing and who KNOWS what could happen? isn't that pretty much what I said? If the LBS stops playing the control, attachment game and starts bettering their own life the WAS may just wake up and smell the coffee? "act as if" is a db concept no? focussing on oneself instead of the was is a db concept, no? All I'm pointing out is that far to many folks seem to be caught up in a web of if I dress this way, talk this way, do this or do that it may elicit this or that reaction from the was...rather than thinking "gee, I'd like to feel better about myself so I'll do this or that" if it works I'll do more of it. I'm not attacking db at all...I'm simply pointing out that this bb doesn't seem to be much of a db site if you really look around.

Now that you've explained it, yah, I can see that we're on the same page...when I read your initial post my fear was that newcomers would be overwhelmed with thoughts of "why am I trying to reconcile" when it seems like maybe you were suggesting "am I truly DB'ing here?" which is totally different and something I totally agree with.

Sage

[Dmsw4]

Hope you don't mind if I cut in. When I first found out about the A, I started dbing like crazy, and H, at that time, didn't realy seem to notice. He was still too hung up on ow to notice. Well, maybe he noticed a little, but not enough to make a difference. Now, he's still having R with ow, but a long distance one, she's changed jobs and moved to another city. We had one of the best weeks together in mid-August. We were away from home, together with the kids, ml like crazy. Last day of our vaca, found out ow had still been calling him, she didn't know that I was with him, he knew I wouldn't go home with him if he was still involved with her, and he left me at my dad's house to go home alone. It didn't make a difference. New clothes, new haircut, greatly improved self-image, feeling great about myself, and it didn't make a difference.

Now I'm back home, kids had to start school, so I came back home. The day we came home, he was not here. Still on his way home from a visit with ow. He moved out that day and into her house-funished, not sold yet. He's been there about 3 weeks now.

Now he calls all the time, unless he's gone to visit her. He says how much he misses me, asks why I have this wall of reserve up around me, wants to cuddle with me, hold me, kiss me. All this from a man who is living in ow's house. I think he's nuts. He can not see what's wrong with the picture. I'm questionning now, as you are, do I want this man who could treat me this way and not even realize how wrong it is? He wants me to open up now, now that he needs me the most. Where was he when I needed him the most? with her

[lostlove]

hi Mellanie,

New clothes, new haircut, greatly improved self-image, feeling great about myself , and it didn't make a difference.

are you sure it didn't make a difference?

if you go back and read the point I was trying to make...you did what you're supposed to do.

You feel better about YOU! and that is what is important..not whether or not h notices or changes what he's doing because of it.

Now he calls all the time, unless he's gone to visit her. He says how much he misses me, asks why I have this wall of reserve up around me, wants to cuddle with me, hold me, kiss me. that's excellent!! what do you say when he asks about the "wall of reserve"? All this from a man who is living in ow's house. I think he's nuts. He can not see what's wrong with the picture. of course he can't but you shouldn't focus on that right now. I'm questionning now, as you are, do I want this man who could treat me this way and not even realize how wrong it is? do you believe he doesn't realize it at all? He wants me to open up now, now that he needs me the most. Where was he when I needed him the most? with her well you can play tit for tat (he wasn't there so why should I be) or you can appreciate the opportunity before you now. the choice becomes up to you.

LL

[Dmsw4]

But now again, tonight, he's unavailable and most probably with her. It's the only time he won't answer his cell phone. Any progress we make is wiped out when he chooses her over me. It's not a competition and I don't want it to be. I want him to choose me because he really wants to spend his future with me, not because I became something other than myself for just long enough to win him over, I like me just the way I am, If I change myself just to win him back, aren't I selling myself short? Condemning myself to years of self-denial?

[Dmsw4]

OK, yes it did make a difference for a while, but lately, I don't know what's going on. One day, he will tell me how much he misses me, then the next he's back to his old crabby, negative self, I feel inadequate or guilty or whatever else I make myself feel, and ..I guess that's the backslide, huh?

But do you really think one should be able to keep up the PMA when confronted with Mr. Negative, Mr. Needy?

I was running a garage sale with some friends today and he was disappointed in me because I wasn't excited to see him this morning when he came to pick up the kids. I told him I appreciated him taking them to soccer, but that wasn't enough for him. He wanted me to be happy to see him, I was happy, but not to his satisfaction, I guess. It leaves me 2nd guessing everything I do and wondering if it's to his satisfaction, and felling that there is little I do that is to his satisfaction. I think that's it, you know? He's just never been satisfied with much that I do. And I'm left feeling unworthy. And I'm not, dammit! I just feel that way when he's around. Who's fault is that? Mine I suppose, not my fault, but my responsibility? Something like that, eh?