I just started reading the chapter you mentioned, and I had to stop after the first couple of paragraphs.. I'll got into more detail on my own thread, but this is not what has happened in my case. I know that I have my own part in the deterioration of my M, but I've never been a nag. H is the one with low tolerance for clutter, and H also insisted a few years ago on taking over the finances. I am the surrendered wife, without my own consent. If this had been a mutual agreement, ok, but it's my H's way of controlling his life. Maybe at some point I'll be able to calm down a little and go back to read it, and maybe there is some good there, but I'm not able to see it right now.
Yes, every situation is certainly unique. The reason I thought of it is because someone in the thread (don't know if it was you) was talking about "respect" and that is really what the "surrendering" stuff is about - meaning you're not "surrendered" if not by your own choice. Too bad it's not a different "word" that is used - as "surrender" has some negative connotations. In any event, I think the gist of it is about taking care of yourself and respecting your spouse. When I believe my spouse behaves like an idiot, it is very difficult to have utmost respect for him. This errodes what closeness we may have to salvage. AND it is also about taking care of myself so that I don't have an idiot controlling my life . But I *have* realized is that I give my advice way too soon and too often. Since I've been allowing him to make more decisions for himself and for us (by merely keeping my mouth shut), he has felt more comfortable sharing his thoughts and feelings with me, which breeds intimacy. AND, I've discovered that he does have the capacity to make intelligent decisions when he isn't trying to keep me happy by acommodating to my unsolicited advice. It is not a cure-all, but it can help things immensely. Since I've been reading the book I have noticed times (that went unnoticed before) where I have really hurt him by saying something that I thought was just necessary to say for my own self righteousness, or I thought it was a no-brainer - so why would he take it so personally?
All of this writing is more theraputic for me, then trying to convince anyone of anything - thanks for letting me butt in
I haven't read the book but I am familiar with the concept. This was not my problem. I never nagged or criticized my H because my expectations were so low he barely had to do anything to meet them. The problem is my expectations were so low he couldn't respect himself for doing so little and he couldn't respect me because I tried too hard to please him.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I have studied what you have written, and I have been thinking about a plan for you. I am not sure that I have formulated one just yet.
I do agree with you that your husband is entirely too dependent on you in some wrong ways, however, I don't believe there is inherent danger in a modicum of dependency in a properly functioning marriage. Why would two people marry if they weren't going to depend somewhat on each others strengths, and protect each other in respective weaknesses.
From what you have written, I DO think your husband is depending on you in an unhealthy manner.
I don't think re-reading PM with a different frame of mind is going to solve the problem.
You are at a point in your relationship where BOTH OF YOU are going to have to work together to fix it. If you are the one that sees the root of the problem, then it will be your responsibility to bring it to your husband's attention. This time however, you are going to have to attempt to enlist his help.
Consider this. Write down an outline of the problem. Add a list of issues that are your fault, and then a list of what you think is his contribution to the problem. Be honest and concise, no additional judgment.
Wait for a decent time to talk to him. Ask him for his help with a problem Then outline the problem, and ask him for his opinions of your take on the problem. Ask him if the list you made of his contributions and yours, are correct. Then ask him how the two of you can fix it.
I know that you don't want to play 'mom' to him any longer. However, you are going to have to be the one to "call him up" to be responsible on a functional level. You can't do that by just "cutting him off" and leaving him to dangle wondering what the hell changed with you. You simply must include him as an insider to the process.
Doing this will show him that you care about him, that you value his opinion and that you want to work WITH him, not direct him, to fix the problem.
Once you have established a foundation for change, then you can slowly withdraw from your previous role as 'mom' to him.
That is where my mind is right now.
Please let me know what you think.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Let me make an admission of guilt. I am a person who is thoroughly capable of self-deception. If I were to hand my H a list of demands and ask him to work with me, I am certain that he would hand me back his own list of demands. I know what those demands would be and I don't know if I could meet them and I'm pretty sure that I don't want to meet them.
You're right when you indicate that our problem isn't just sex, but I don't think the issue of "respect" is the real problem. When I joined this board, I was probably at an all time low in terms of self-esteem. Generally, I'm pretty impervious to my H's "Felix Unger" type comments. In fact, when he made the comment about not wanting me to put my post-exercise body on his car upholstery, my reaction was to basically tell him he was being ridiculous because I always showered and put on deodorant before I worked out, so any moisture I left on his car seat would just be nice clean water and salt. He was thoroughly unsatisfied with this argument, so I just patted him on the leg and said "Okay, I'll put a towel on the seat because I know it will drive you crazy if I don't.". So the exchange was actually fairly equitable in terms of insult/lack of respect. He made me feel kind of bad for being a human being who sweats and has tendencies towards being a slob and I made him feel kind of bad for being so uptight and anal retentive. Maybe there is a lack of respect problem in our relationship, but if so it's pretty mutual. I don't really think I'm any better, more mature, nicer or 'differentiated" than my husband. I would LIKE to believe that I am because that would be an easy out for me.
Which brings me to what I think might be the essential problem which is "lifestyle". The fact that I want frequent, varied over-the-top sex and my H doesn't is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how we vary in terms of what we want/need from life. I just want different things from life than my husband. I crave excitement, challenge and novelty. My H craves comfort, routine and ease. His idea of a perfect Friday evening would be sitting in his comfortable armchair, with his antihistamines and skin cream handy, watching his favorite shows on TV with me as a cheerful presence willing to fetch beer or prepare yummy snacks as needed. I am able to tolerate a boring evening like this only because I can pick up a book to distract myself and hope that if I'm cheerful enough and the snacks were yummy enough and the antihistamines and beer don't combine in an unfortunate way, I might get some sex. Of course, the other reason I was willing to tolerate boring evenings like this is that when you have young children and full time jobs, the energy to do much more can be hard to find.
I am not willing to tolerate boring evenings like this anymore now that my children are less dependent. Don't misunderstand. I am a total goody-two-shoes in some ways. I'm definitely not looking for drunken orgies. I am curious, not crazy or irresponsible. For instance, I have probably tried just about every mind-altering substance known to man once or twice, but then never again and I did have sex with a woman once, but I never cheat on my taxes and I never drive more than 5 miles over the speed limit.
The only way I can imagine my H and I as a happy couple once our children are gone is if we are like toddlers engaged in parallel play. He'll be going to work at a job where he has everything organized just the way he likes it and know what to expect. I'll be running my own business or attending grad school in a whole new field or teaching calculus to impoverished kids in Kenya. He'll be having a couple beers and a pizza and watching TV on a Friday night and I'll be downtown watching an improvisational ballet and eating at a restaurant I've never tried before or I'll be at the county fair watching the rodeo and eating deep fried pickles. He'll be considering moving into a condo because he wants less maintenance and I'll be thinking about living in a rustic cabin in the woods off the grid or on the ocmputer designing my dream home of the future with all sorts of cool robotic features. Etc. Etc. Etc.
My fantasy life seems overwhelming and exhausting to my H. This is why he says I suffer from "irrational exuberance". His fantasy life seems dull and depressing to me. This is why I say I feel more free when he's not around.
The reason why I say I'm the leader in our relationship is I am the one who is HD about everything compared to my H. The reason why he might say that he is the leader in our relationship is that in his opinion my HD nature is out of control and immature. I think he needs to get his *ss out of the chair and do something/anything and he thinks I need to calm down and be more content with the status quo.
If you have any ideas about how a depressive Felix Unger and a manic Oscar Madison can reach a compromise and live and have sex together in harmony once their children have flown the coop, please let me know.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I find that when I get in this "we are nothing alike" space, I tend to overemphasize our differences and all of a sudden the gulf seems like the Grand Canyon. Other times, I am fully aware that we are polar opposites but it doesn't seem to be something that will eventually drive us apart.
Does your H try to meet you halfway, at times? If so, then I think this might be as good as it gets...both of you attempting to tone down your oppositional traits that drive the other cuckoo, and then pursuing the things that make you happy on an individual basis. Personally, I think this is the gist of differentiation.
If he never tries to meet you and stays in Felix Unger mode all the time then THIS is the issue you would want to address, don't you think?
I find that it is all too easy for me to lie to myself, as well. I tell myself that I was attracted to him for XYZ reason..I was young, I didn't know this or that , but the truth is that I was attracted to his personality for a reason and there is still something there that appeals to me on some (masochistic, lol) level. For instance, I liked the fact that I 'wowed' him on a sexual level. I did not realize at the time that this would, in later years, translate into him getting over the wow stage and simply being "content". I was definitely in charge of our sexual encounters..the teacher, if you will. Now I resent the hell out of that role. But who am I to be surprised that it has progressed to this?
I am not relating this example to you because I think MW had any of these tendencies but just to say that we all chose our mates for one reason or another and, given the chance to be able to choose another one, I would probably choose someone whose personality did NOT mesh with mine in a fairly significant way.
Is this because I like a challenge? Is it because that is what keeps it fresh for me? Is it human nature? Is it some variation of that pukey line in Jerry Maguire 'you complete me'?? LOLOL
In spite of my best efforts, I still haven’t even begun to master the PM idea that I shouldn’t try to figure out W and understand her side of our SSM. So this may be way off base, but the “mothers” have me back into analyzing mode. The question is, do those of you familiar with my sitch think that I could be W’s “father”?
W was the third of four, and was very obviously her father’s favorite. (If you knew her siblings, the reasons would be obvious.) Where I had to work for everything I got, her father was the type that pretty much indulged her. The month before we were married, I remember her telling her father that she needed to do some Christmas shopping. Without even being asked, he peeled off a couple of $100 bills for her – and this was back in 1975 when $100 was still a fair amount of money. I’m not sure why that made such an impact on me, but that’s about the only thing that stands out in my memory of that trip. It was just so foreign to what I was accustomed to. Of course she had her own car, and pretty much anything else she wanted too.
I’ve told you about her money problems. I’ve also said that she’s a SAHM. Before we had kids, she spent 12 years as a SAHW. So for our entire M, she’s been completely dependent upon me for her financial support. Things are marginally better now, but when I asked for the D and went to the C, my number one complaint wasn’t sex, but that I felt that she was totally dependent on me. What I said was that I was doing all of the work in the R; I was providing all of the emotional support. Like Mojo and HM said, I was the strong one in the R. She had completely abdicated to that strength and leaned on me for everything.
Now, having heard this mother stuff, I’m wondering if I was a replacement father. I have no doubt at all that she loves me, respects me, appreciates me, admires me, and all those other things. The only thing she seems to have a problem with is f*cking me. Mojo says that most men aren’t motherf*ckers – well, I would venture to say that most women aren’t fatherf*ckers either. Maybe I’m too worried about figuring her out. Maybe I’m too quick to latch onto any theory that comes down the pike and offers any kind of explanation for W’s behavior. But if she saw me as a “father”, that could explain her seeming discomfort at feeling sexual with me.
He's funny, physically atractive and great in bed techniquewise. His essentially depressive nature was somewhat hidden from me due to the fact that he is a cheerful drunk and we met and dated in a college town party environment. To be quite honest, I think even when we were first sleeping together, he enjoyed drinking and watching TV with my male housemates more than he enjoyed having sex with me.
I'm not denying that my H has good qualities. For instance, he is honest to a fault. He never lies and is much less capable of self-deception than moi. This is why I don't worry about him cheating on me and I didn't really worry about getting "mercy" sex. I just have to remember to never ask him for his opinion if I don't want to hear the truth as he sees it.
I also can't deny that I am still very attracted to him on some level. It's easy for me to ignore this when he's not around, but pretty much impossible when he's in the same room. It's probably kind of masochistic because the only way I can describe it is that he is "cooler" than me. I know it seems contradictory, but he is "cool" and neurotic/crabby and funny and boring to be around all at the same time.
Quote: Does your H try to meet you halfway, at times?
No. If I want to have my kind of fun, I have to do it by myself. This is the gist of the problem. I have to start doing more of what I want to do and stop humoring my H by doing just what he wants to do in order to get laid. It doesn't work anyways so what's the point? The problem is he is going to resent it and feel like I am abandoning him. He will be more sexually attracted to me because I will be more confident and attractive when I start doing more things I enjoy and acting less like his mom, but he won't like the withdrawal of my attention.
If I just insist that he does more of what I want to do, he will give me the social equivalent of mercy sex and he will ruin the activity or project for me with his complaints and lack of enthusiasm. We always end up having big fights when we go on vacation together for this reason. That is why I feel like I have to just go ahead and do what I want and let him decide just how much he wants my companionship and whether he's willing to meet me halfway.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: The question is, do those of you familiar with my sitch think that I could be W’s “father”?
Definitely. You protect her WAY too much. That is why I said that you were in a way showing a lack of respect for her by not taking a tough stand with her on this issue. There is a fine line between being nice and being condescending and you and I are both probably guilty of crossing it on occasion.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
. But I *have* realized is that I give my advice way too soon and too often. Since I've been allowing him to make more decisions for himself and for us (by merely keeping my mouth shut), he has felt more comfortable sharing his thoughts and feelings with me, which breeds intimacy. AND, I've discovered that he does have the capacity to make intelligent decisions when he isn't trying to keep me happy by acommodating to my unsolicited advice. It is not a cure-all, but it can help things immensely. Since I've been reading the book I have noticed times (that went unnoticed before) where I have really hurt him by saying something that I thought was just necessary to say for my own self righteousness, or I thought it was a no-brainer - so why would he take it so personally?
