MM's new thread

[MJontheMend]

I guess my old thread is locked, so I will begin again here. Mr. W initiated some phone sex last night so that brings my total for the month of July up to 8 encounters. Last July was the peak of my "Trying to turn myself into a LDW" phase, so this is quite possibly 8 more encounters than I experienced last July. My goal is 10x per month maintained for 3 monthes. Wish me luck!

[NOPkins]

Hi, MM.

I wanted to ask you a few questions.

What you said about your husbands car and the gym has me thinking. I hope these questions aren't painful for you.

Do you feel like a "second class citizen" sometimes around your husband?

Does he make statements or judgments that make you feel slovenly?

Does he make you feel like he is doing you a favor by doing something you ask of him, including sex?

Are the two of you equitably involved in your relationship?

You had mentioned that your kids think you are 'goofy' and a 'space cadet'. Are those fond playful opinions, or do they have a deeper root?

-NOPkins-

[MJontheMend]

Do you feel like a "second class citizen" sometimes around your husband?

Tricky question. I used to tell my H that he loved me the way Mr. Brady loved Alice. I think I made myself into a bit of a servant by my constant attempts to cheer him up so I might get some sex. The worst side effect of this lame behavior on my part is that I fear that my son thinks women express their love by fetching beer for men. On the other hand, I frequently take on responsibilities because my H claims he has no skill in that area or tells me I ought to do it because I am smarter than him. For instance, I changed all the diapers and I always do our taxes.

Does he make statements or judgments that make you feel slovenly?

He did this all the time before my recent weight loss and wardrobe renovation. He was constantly telling me that he didn't like the way my hair looked or that my clothing was unattractive. To be fair, he often said these things in a joking manner and he is picky about all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me. Now, he complains that my clothes are too sexy.

Does he make you feel like he is doing you a favor by doing something you ask of him, including sex?

Frankly, I rarely ask favors of him because it's easier to do things myself than deal with his potential annoyance. He doesn't act like he's doing me a favor by having sex with me, but he frequently would get angry if I "pressured" him about it. I think one of our all time lows was one time when I made the mistake of bringing up the sex issue when he was telling me how much he hated his job. We were in the car and he yelled "F*ck You" at me. I, of course, responded in my typically wimpy way and started crying, apologized and suggested that he buy a new motorcycle. Looking back on this incident from my current perspective, I can only plead temporary insanity.

Are the two of you equitably involved in your relationship?

Another tricky question. My mother is an over-the-top manic depressive, but she is a very intelligent woman. She often says the kind of true but cruel things that most people suppress. Recently, she figured out that things might not be going too well in my marriage. She spewed out a lot of garbage about how all men are *ssholes, but the thing she said that sticks with me is "You know you are the strong one in your relationship. I don't like the idea of you feeling like you have to spend the rest of your life "holding his hand".".

I guess what she meant and what is probably kind of true is that in Schnarchian terms my H "borrows functioning" from me. His crabbiness is a signal to me to summon up some more "functioning" for him to borrow. Superficially, it might seem like he bosses me around, but really it is more like he thinks I have more resources so I should contribute more, sort of like a communist version of an equitable relationship. It is revealing that when he first went into a "crucible" because of my strong stand, his reaction was to get upset and say that even though he knew he was the one who was behaving badly, he was afraid that I would be the one to "leave him squashed like a bug". I am actually afraid that he might do something "desperate" if I left him, but this might just be me being overly anxious.

You had mentioned that your kids think you are 'goofy' and a 'space cadet'. Are those fond playful opinions, or do they have a deeper root?

I think you're "leading the witness" with this question. I am very absent-minded and have been since the age of 5 according to my kindergarten report card. I am frequently "lost in thought" to the extent that I used to sometimes walk into my children and knock them down when they were toddlers. I actually recently went to a psychiatrist to see if I maybe had ADD. Her verdict was that I didn't and she also ruled out the possibility that I was manic-depressive like my mother. She did suggest that I probably suffer from some Type 2 depression and that is why I sometimes fall into "leaden paralysis" cookie binges.

But back to what I believe was the intent of your question. Does my H's crabby criticism of me cause my children to treat me with less respect than they should? I think this might be somewhat true of my son, but not at all of my daughter. She is a definite "Mommy's Girl". My son does know that I am quite intelligent and this is the character trait he most values, so his disrespect is probably more due to teenage surliness than anything else. He spent a few weeks this summer traveling with my completely emotionally-fused MIL and experiencing the way my H's crabby sister runs her household. He came home with a heightened appreciation for my laid-back "space cadet" parenting style.

[NOPkins]

Thanks for the answers. I was concerned that I had upset you.

Let me ask a few more questions. I promise that I have a reason and I will follow up.

How do you feel about your husband? Is her admirable, strong, a good father, responsible, etc?

What key area in your relationship (sans sex) does he miss his obligations on the most? (bad sentence, sorry)

What are his hobbies?

How do your kids feel about him? Are there major issues?

Is this your first marriage? Hubby's?

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[FocusedFlutist]

I was going to respond to MM's response to my question on my own thread, but if you two don't mind, I'd jump in here - I'd like your advice as well, NOPkins. If it gets too confusing, I can move this back to my own thread.

So you lose your temper sometimes, that's O.K.. At least you're being honest. I spent too many years being "fake" happy all the time to balance things in our relationship because my H was such a crab. It was important to my self-worth to have a "good marriage" so I did whatever was necessary to project that image superficially. I got so good at it, I even fooled myself half the time.

I've spent a lot of time doing the 'fake' thing as well, 'cause like you, it was important for me to have a 'good' marriage. I wanted to keep the peace...

I remember a couple of weeks after I came home w D8, who was a VERY high needs baby. H was getting in his 'nervous' state, and complaining constantly about the state of our apartment. Finally one night, I stayed up, and cleaned up as best I could, to stop the complaints. H never said a word, and the pattern was started. I suspected H was feeling 'left out' since I was so involved with the baby, so I did start to just wait on him a bit, thinking that's what he needed. Of course it just grew...

By the time the twins were born, I had realized that I was making myself miserable by 'expecting' help or emotional suport from H, so I sort of shut him out. I remember when I went back to work when the boys were about 1.5 yrs old, and someone asked me how I had made it through the last year. As I starte to tell them, I got this feeling of incredable strength and calm. There had been times when I had fallen for H's complaints, and felt that if I could only be more organized, skinnier, less 'emotional' that he would love me more. That night, I realized that I was strong.

Shortly after that I went to my 20th Hschool reunion. I was definately *not* a popular person during HS, sort of into my own thing. Suddenly, everyone was interested in my 'fascinating' life, and I got so many compliments from the women at how good I looked, and a most of the guys there alone tried to pick me up, which was also a great boost to my ego!!! So I wasn't the old rundown 'mom' that I was beginning to believe myself to be.

It was after that I brought up our sitch w H, and he told me there was no way he could consider having sex with me since I was so angry all the time. The following months were horrible, H was sure I hated him, and got defensive at everything I said, I would get angry and shut him out, or just walk away. I would put my foot down when H would start taking out his anger by yelling at the kids, and somehow, we've managed to keep them out of it pretty well. I have four very well adjusted kids, by anyone's standards. I have gone out of my way to make them understand that mom + dad's fighting doesn't have anything to do with them, and I refuse to say anything bad about their father to them - and at the same time 'stick up for them' when he gets angry. They know they can trust me, and even their dad. H has made BIG strides in that department this summer.

I spent the summer a year ago alone with the kids in the States. The kids, by the way, were great, and we had a wonderful time. It was wonderful for me to get to share some of my childhood with them (the girls had been before, it was the boy's first trip). It also gave H+I some time to 'cool off'. Things were rather strained at first when we came back, but once H realized that I was not planning to leave him right away, he calmed down.

Last year I decided to back off. I felt there was no way I could get out of the M, nor did I want to - for the kids sake, so I decided to try to keep my cool, hoping that would improve things between H+I. Of course, most of what it did was feed my resentment, and I did come close to starting an EA with an old friend.

That's when I found you guys...This evening got rather hairy, H+I are going to be gone all day tomorrow, and since this was my first week back to work, things were not all that tidy around here...I asked H to pick up the cardbord boxes from the girls new desks that had been lying in the hall all week, and H said that he had left them so that I could throw them away. I asked him to do it.

He then started getting upset with the kids about leaving their things around, in a very loud voice, getting everyone upset just as I was trying to get them into bed. I finally went downstairs and asked him to cool off so that I could get everyone into bed, as it was late. (I was not very cool myself, I'm afraid.) H started yelling back at me, and I finally told him that if he couldn't cool down, then he could leave. H said 'you should think what you are saying'. I'll admit I've thrown out the D word before - not for a very long time - in the heat of the moment, and H has known that I couldn't back it up, so I have lost credability in his eyes.

This time though, I didn't back down. 'I do know what I said, and if that's what it takes to get things to cool off here, than that's what I want'.

I know I'm not an organized person, and I understand that H needs a certain level of organization to function. But it's not at all like I'm just sitting around doing nothing, and I know that if H weren't so condiscending about it, things would go a lot better. (yes, I have said that to H)

MM, your answers to NOPkins' questions are very similar to what I would have said( my children are still much too young to have anything but utmost adoration for their mom - though D8 is getting good at letting me know when I've overstepped my boundaries ) . I understand your 'spacing out' as well. I've always put it down to my needing time to let my mind wander - that's how I recharge. I suspect it's a sign of a very creative mind, allowing yourself to dream. I don't think anyone should feel the need to defend it. We all should do a lot more of it.

I'll stop for now. MM, you no longer have to feel bad - I most definately just beat you for the most blatent hijacking of a thread

[MJontheMend]

Okay. Here is my blackest fear and probably the reason why I am still semi-obsessively posting on this board. I am afraid that my H withheld sex from me because he was too civilized to hit me. I know that we are theoretically not supposed to examine the "why" of our LD spouse, but I can't avoid it in my situation. I can't do a "Harrison Bergeron" and make myself into a weaker person, though it is now apparent to me that I have tried to do this over the years. I can't make my H into a stronger person, though I have definitely tried to do this over the years. Most importantly, I can't stay in a relationship in which my spouse feels so powerless compared to me that he has to resort to withholding sex and making cruel remarks as a means of control. If I KNEW this was true, I would have to leave. Unfortunately, I fear that just the fact that I think it might be true means it probably is.

Am I overreacting? Is this just what Schnarch call ordinary marital sadism?

NOP, since you are the one who forced me into confronting this issue, I am hoping you will hand over a little of your superior functioning to me right about now.

[NOPkins]

MM, I don't know about superior, but I will hand over what I think..

My immediate problem is that I will have to delay an answer until late tonight. I just had some business issues turn left and I have no choice but to deal with them.

I will respond later this evening.
Sorry,
-NOPkins-

[MJontheMend]

How do you feel about your husband? Is her admirable, strong, a good father, responsible, etc?

I do admire him in some ways. He definitely has a code of ethics that he lives by and he is an intelligent, sensitive funny and creative person. He is not a strong person IMO. In fact, he is always making statements like "I don't have anything to give.". He is a good father in some ways. He loves the kids and he interacts with them on a close personal level. I would say he's not so good at taking on the responsibilities of fatherhood. For instance, I don't think he ever thought about teaching the kids to ride their bikes. I would say he is somewhat irresponsible. For instance, I've had to stop him from driving drunk and he got fired from his last job for passive-aggressively failing to file an important safety report.

What key area in your relationship (sans sex) does he miss his obligations on the most? (bad sentence, sorry)

Basically he feels his obligations are to hold a full time job, spend some time interacting with the kids and take care of some of his personal needs like laundry (he doesn't like the way I fold). When I was working full time, he did all the laundry and paid the bills. I do everything else. As you might imagine there is a lot that doesn't get done.

What are his hobbies?

He is a pianist, a cinemaphile and an obsessive watcher of news programs and Seinfeld reruns. He loathes physical activity because he has severe eczema (this is also the reason why he doesn't do some chores) and a bad relationship with his father who is an exercise junkie and recently biked the Lewis and Clark trail at age 69.

How do your kids feel about him? Are there major issues?

The kids love him. All kids love him. He can be a charming clown when he's in one of his better moods. They generally come to me for any sort of actual parental support. This is probably my fault. I trained them to not bug Daddy. A sign that this is true is the fact that since I have started taking a very laid back approach with my son, my H has been becoming more involved in laying down the law about his cr*ppy grades. Unfortunately, he keeps hinting that I should be the one laying down the law.

Is this your first marriage? Hubby's?

Yes we married at 23 and 24. As I have indicated in other posts, we married because I was pregnant.

[MJontheMend]

As long as I am on the topic of all the other things that are wrong with my H besides the sex, I should add that I sometimes worry that he is an alcoholic. Though I might not be a good judge of this because if I have 5 drinks in one month that would be a heavy drinking month for me.

There are a lot of good things about my H too. For instance, he knows his own weaknesses and he is frequently able to laugh at himself. In fact, I would say that the shared character trait of a good sense of humor is the only thing that is going to get us out of this mess we've made of our marriage.

[MJontheMend]

There had been times when I had fallen for H's complaints, and felt that if I could only be more organized, skinnier, less 'emotional' that he would love me more.

I would say in my sich I felt like this most of the time. My whole life became centered around trying to improve my H's mood. I think the reason why I consider withholding sex and affection to be almost as bad as actual physical abuse is that I ended up acting like the stereotypical abused woman you see in a made-for-TV movie. I was ashamed of what was happening in my marriage, so I never discussed the problem with anyone or sought help until I joined this board. I would try to hide the evidence of our SSM by, for instance, claiming insomnia if someone noticed that I had slept on the sofa. I was always worrying about what sort of mood he would be in and trying to make everything less stressful for him. Like you, I internalized the problem. A physically abused woman might come to believe that she deserves to be hit if dinner isn't ready on time. I came to believe that I didn't deserve sex because I could stand to lose 20 lbs. or I didn't get the air conditioner fixed or I wasn't absolutely attentive when my H was telling me about his cr*ppy day at work. So I was constantly adding items to my Things To Do To Keep H Happy list. I know it might seem like I am exaggerating, but I was so over-the-top nice and attentive to my H that if you took me and HD's wife and split the difference, you might get a sort of normal wife . I was also idiotic in the same way that abused wives are frequently idiotic for thinking things will change because when I finally did get some sex or affection, I would fool myself into believing that a new day had dawned and things were just great.

There are many different ways to look at any given situation. On the one hand, it is helpful for the HD partner in a SSM to lose their "victim" mentality, but on the other hand, perhaps sometimes you can go too far with that line of reasoning and end up "blaming the victim". When I read of situations like NOPkins where he knew how he was to blame for the situation or the situation of many of the LD women on the board who point out so clearly how their HDH's were in some ways responsible for the problem, I just can't quite identify. The only thing I could come up with in terms of blaming myself is to admit that I needed to lose some weight. What was most helpful to me in improving my sich was to lose the shame of being a "victim" by joining this board and interacting with other people who found themselves in this situation. I needed to realize that I was acting like a "victim" before I could stop being a victim.

I'm sorry if this analogy is offensive to some LD people on the board. I am only trying to explain how my particular situation felt and feels to me. When it is suggested to me that maybe I would be more "f*ckable" if I did one thing or another, it sometimes feels like I'm an abused wife being told that my H won't hit me if I make more of an effort with my housecleaning and always remember to keep beer in the fridge. I think I need to keep telling myself that it's NOT my fault and I will NOT tolerate it anymore.