Conversation 101

[MJontheMend]

But there's more. There's always more, and its never just about sex. This is what I am coming to realize. I think you are even one step ahead, because your H has begun to get it.

Your H will begin to get it as soon as he understands that your resolve is strong. Things will get worse before they get better. You just need to hold on to your resolve in the face of such things as turned off cell phones and the fact that your H of 16 years has suddenly stopped calling you Jenny and started to address you as Jennifer because he can't believe that the HD PITA he now lives with is the same nice wimpy woman he knew.

[FocusedFlutist]

You will never be as space-cadety as me. Right now I have 3 huge bruises on my leg and I have no idea how I got them.

I think I'd give you a run for your money Last night on the way to sauna, somewhere between taking my clothes off upstairs and going all the way down to sauna I left my towel somewhere. I found it in the hallway next to the front door


Your post here, and on your own thread gave me a lot to think about yesterday. Actually, you sort of clarified some things that I've been thinking about myself. I'll guess I'll combine my answers into some kind of mega-post here...

I've been struggling for a while with what it was I was missing. I understand the idea of PM pretty well, and know that on some levels, I am pretty well differentiated - heh, I got on a plane at 23 without a return ticket, knowing the one person who was going to pick me up at the airport, and two words of Finnish. In order to live in a foreign country, especially one where there were no foreigners, you learn real quick who you are - or you are miserable and go home. I managed to HOM pretty well that first year, and even after I met H. I think the thing in Schnarch that caught my attention right off and kept me going was when he explained that we connect with people of the same level of differentiation. That made me realize that if I could stand alone, so could H.

In my 'alternate lives', I see myself as a very contented widow, or a sucessful artist (in some genre)alone in a farm house in Tuscany, or a big Victorian somewhere on the Atlantic shore in NE, with lots of artsy neighbors, and one or two lovers...or here in our house surrounded by grandchildren at Christmas, with H somewhere in the corner looking like a cross between the grinch and Scrooge.

I started to realize what a role model my Gramma was. Grampa died when I was about 3, so I knew Gramma as a widow. I knew I wanted to be like her - strong, happy, self-sufficient, loved by everyone. I wanted those big family Christmas and Thanksgiving parties filled with laughter and poker games. I never thought about a man in the equation, probably because, hey, she didn't need one! My own parents weren't much of a model...Mom was rather emotionally abusive, and I knew I didn't want a R like theirs.

So in a way, I just kind of avoided the whole H thing...

And I also knew that I had gotten to the point where I didn't blame H for my frustration. I knew that I had made a decision to stay in this SSM, and so I had no right to blame him. And if I gave H an 'ultimatum', and he turned off his cell phone, I suspect I would be planning how I was going to take care of the kids while I worked if he didn't come home . I've gone over that in my mind enough times. I've played with the possibility of leaving, or asking him to leave.

But I hadn't dealt with the fact that I do need affection and sex, and I hadn't dealt with the fact that the decision I made I had made alone, without H's knowledge, behind his back in a way.

And I knew I was still fused (still am...but at least starting to see it)

So, the big thing?...I am a very disorganized person. I don't think there's a person I work with who wouldn't agree with the 'scatterbrained' label i'm good - very good if I do say so, at what I do, but I'm not organized. They just kind of put up with me and put it down to being the mind of an artist.

H, on the other hand, is a perfectionist. I think that's part of what attracted me to him, the thought that he could help keep my feet on the ground. I figured he'd help me with the organizing part, I'd show him how to live.

H of course, knows well which buttons to push. Takes over all control of our money, and starts complaining about the housework. And I let him. As my confidence ebbs there, he can start getting to me other places as well. And I believe him. How could I even consider living alone, especially with the kids, since I could never take care of myself? my little voices say.

I started remembering things about the beginning of our relationship last night, and started to realize how much of this has been about control. About H needing to be in control, and me not wanting to give it up.

Thing is, going about the way I was was not very attractive on my part. I certainly wouldn't want to be with someone who let me walk all over them, and then yell about it. Not to mention that I had a hard time admitting that I was part of the problem, even though there was a voice in the back of my head the whole time saying 'look in the mirror'

I'm not quite sure what the point of all that was, but it just needed to come out. Kind of getting myself in focus.

If you present your request for more sex in such a way that you are basically saying "The only way I will be happy is if you have more sex with me." your H will naturally rebel against this pathetic request. It is too much pressure on a LD spouse to make their sex drive responsible for your happiness. If your request is truly along the lines of "I will only be happy if I can plan a future in which I am having sex.", you take some of the pressure off your H. You are giving him the option of choosing whether your relationship is more important to him than being LD. If you make him responsible for your happiness, you also make him responsible for your unhappiness and force him to take a defensive stance and also give him the choice of believing that you do not know what makes you happy or you will never be happy so why should he try.

This, for me, of all this great wisdom, is the greatest piece. I need to do some planning. You know, these convos are a bit like going to the dentist. You hate to make that phone call, even though you are in pain, and once you go and sit there for a short while, in agony, you realize it wasn't all that bad, and you feel well, way more than 50% better afterwards.

So thanks to you, and to Corri for your advice on how to keep things focused. I'll let you know how it goes...

[FocusedFlutist]

H+I went to a concert last night, when we got home, I put the kids to bed, H brought his parents home. Later he was sitting in his computer room, and I figured I should be honest.

As I have said, good music does things to me. Ok, this wasn't the greatest concert, but I very rarely get to concerts since I work at night, so it was good enough

I decided to initiate. I knew it would be turned down, but I figured I should anyway. Now, I now I shouldn't 'expect', but when you haven't really had sex at all for 7 yrs...

But I knew that going in knowing it wouldn't work wouldn't be very convincing. So I spent a while conjuring up my best image of Hank sitting in that room, took a deep breath, chickened out a couple of times and started over, and finally went in.

I told H that classical music makes me h**ney. He laughed and said 'why? that's silly'. Now, this guy has known me for 17 yrs, I figured he might have figured that much out about me, but oh well. I made it pretty obvious (yes, H noticed) that I wanted to act on that.

He wasn't really standoffish, actually almost receptive. Maybe I should have pushed a little harder, but I didn't want to come off sounding desperate. We did sit and watch TV for a while, and it was obvious H was wrestling a little - or more - with what I had done.

H came to bed only after I was asleep. This morning H had to leave early, and I woke up at some point and came down to say goodbye. H was very grumpy, and started yelling about something being left in the yard. I HOM, and asked when we could expect him back this evening. He grumbled out an answer.

Question...I was thinking of bringing up the 'big' convo this weekend, ala MM's suggestions. Would this seem too much like pushing after last night? Should I steam ahead, or give him time to get used to me as a sexual being again?

[SolidMechanic]

I think you need a two pronged approach. You need to have the conversation. H needs to know what you expect from him. Then you need to find ways to get closer to him, even though he seems to want to fight that at every turn. And I still haven't heard any real insights from you as to why you two are so distant. I know you've tried, but your biggest and hardest task is to get your H to self disclose. This has to be a big part of that conversation. "We need to have sex. If we aren't having sex, I need to know why. I need you to trust me and tell me what is going on." Stuff like that.

SM

[TheNewChris]

heap,

I forget if you've turned down the idea of marriage counseling or not. If you want conversation, sometimes the best environment is a neutral site in a counselor's office, where a 3rd party will attempt to drive the conversation and keep it going. I have this problem in my M since my W "doesn't like" to talk. We start a conversation - it ends a minute later unless I carry it with more questions or comments. You can't "get away with this" in a counselor's office.

Other than that, I think you need to relax and keep talking to your H when you want to.


- Chris.

[Julie33]

heapmom,

I agree that you really need to talk first. There seems to be a really big communication gap between you and H. I think that continued references to sex or even attempts at initiation will make him withdraw even more, unless you first have a really good conversation.

I know I'm not being very helpful here, but that is what I noticed with H. He felt attacked by all the little 'digs' as he called them.

J

[FocusedFlutist]

Thanks to all of you for getting me back on track. My impatience will be my undoing...

I did talk with H last night. Probably wasn't a good night to do it, we were both pretty tired, but there aren't many good times for us, and as I said, I get impatient.

I asked H why he felt he couldn't talk to me about sex, or much else for that matter. I didn't really put it that bluntly, tried to make H understand that I loved him didn't want to stay in the same place as we were. It took me a while to keep the convon on track, but I was able to HOM (at this point).

At one point I told H that I wanted change. No matter what it meant, I didn't want to stay were we are.
H 'Think what you are saying. Are you saying that anything is better than this?'
M I'm saying that I want change. I'm willing to accept that the change might be bad, because I believe it will be better. We went through this a couple of times before H understood I meant it. At one point he said that I insulted him by saying that. I stood by what I said.

It went round and round for a while, finally H blurted out 'I don't know why I can't'. Even though it doesn't sound like much, it felt as if he was finally saying something. It felt like a wall came down. Finally H said that when I yelled and brought up D, (something I haven't done in over a year) it hurt, and he hadn't got over that hurt.

For the first time, I felt H's pain. I didn't feel like he was hiding, I felt him. We went on, and for a while the convo was really good, even though we were both in a lot of pain. H told me he remembered a convo with my Dad who explained about my parents divorce, and H had understood where he was coming from.

I told him that I did not want to grow into my parents, who had divorced without dealing with this (and left my Mom in the childhood stage), or like his parents who just stayed together because that's what they'd done for the past 30 yrs.

I told H I wanted our kids to be able to see that their parents cared for each other, and I wanted them to be able to grow up knowing that being an adult is not so bad if you have someone to share it with.

I told H I wanted to enjoy life, and have someone next to me to enjoy it with. H then said 'What is it you enjoy about life?' Again I was surprised how he can latch on so hard to the negatives and miss out on all the other stuff.

I told H I loved music, art, food, gardening and nature, watching our kids grow, learning about people and life, I told him I had Os listening to music, or looking at art, that I wanted to discover as much about life as I could

H really seemed a little surprised, and there was a very brief flicker of almost respect in his eyes.

I tried then to explain how much I hurt when he complained about how I do things, and while it wasn't an excuse, I exploded because I didn't know what else to do. It degenerated into a convo about housework for a while, but he finally admitted that he does understand that I hurt when he does that. But he also felt I was attacking him for not doing anything. I told him all I was trying to do right now was help him understand how I felt.

Finally we sat silently for a while, then H got up and walked away. We had been sitting on the couch, we were going to watch TV, and somehow I felt it would be good for me to stay there, even though we had been talking for a while, and it was late.

H finally came back, asked if I was waiting for something, I told him I was waiting for him, if he still wanted to sit. He did, and we watched our show, then went to bed. H threw out little jabs about how late it was, and how he wished he had known he was going to have to wait so long, etc.

When we went up to bed H complained that I had moved a pile of clean clothes (which I had placed on his side of the bed the day before since I have no idea right now where he his keeping his clothes (this is not as bad as it sounds). Unfortunately, this degenerated into a pretty fused convo, I tried in the beginning, but H kept pushing.

So I do feel like we made some progress last night, but that H is determined to keep this from going forward.

Chris,

I have thought about C, brought it up at one point last night, H just laughed, and said think about the practicality of that. When I asked him to explain, he wouldn't.

But the truth is, it would be very hard for us to find a C here who would be good for us. Meaning, we both know we wouldn't deal well with the free Cs attached to the state church (Lutheran) for lots of reasons, many cultural. There are a few private Cs here in town, but It would really have to be someone who speaks English at least as well as H, in addition to being someone pro-M (and I doubt anyone here has heard of Schnarch).

That may sound like me giving excuse, and it may well be. I may do some research, and see if I can find anyone promising, but I think I will see how things progress after last night.

I'm still not sure whether to be happy or frustrated, and I'm really unsure of what the next step will be.

[MJontheMend]

It went round and round for a while, finally H blurted out 'I don't know why I can't'. Even though it doesn't sound like much, it felt as if he was finally saying something. It felt like a wall came down. Finally H said that when I yelled and brought up D, (something I haven't done in over a year) it hurt, and he hadn't got over that hu

It seems pretty obvious that he is indicating that the two of you need to build emotional connection, but I think it's interesting that he said that he "can't" have sex with you. He is not acknowledging that at some level he has a choice in the matter. He is choosing to avoid opportunities for physical intimacy with you that might lead to arousal. Perhaps the "hugging until relaxed" exercise would be helpful in your situation.

P.S. Don't feel bad for being impatient. There isn't even a word to describe how impatient I would be if I hadn't had sex in 7 years. You are the very model of restraint and forbearance in that regard.

[FocusedFlutist]

It seems pretty obvious that he is indicating that the two of you need to build emotional connection, but I think it's interesting that he said that he "can't" have sex with you. He is not acknowledging that at some level he has a choice in the matter. He is choosing to avoid opportunities for physical intimacy with you that might lead to arousal. Perhaps the "hugging until relaxed" exercise would be helpful in your situation.

It's very similar to how he deals with other things - H can't put the cup in the dishwasher because he doesn't like the way I do, or make his own food 'cause he can't figure out how I organize the kitchen. Maybe that's how his mind works, but to me it sounds like an excuse (and I did tell him that).

He did mention last night that if I were more positive, it would help, and I pointed out that the last few times I tried to say something nice to him, he had pulled away, and grumpily pointed out something I had done wrong. He agreed, but didn't offer a solution.

So in spite of getting somewhere with the conve, I still feel sort of left in the cold as to how to progress. I guess right now I just continue working on me, and being pleasant, and hoping that at some point H notices?

[TheNewChris]

So in spite of getting somewhere with the conve, I still feel sort of left in the cold as to how to progress. I guess right now I just continue working on me, and being pleasant, and hoping that at some point H notices?

Yes, continue to work on you. Be pleasant - and don't make snippy comments when H says something to instigate an argument. Be aware, though, that it may be months before H notices, and it may be several more months before H acknowledges that he notices. This may not do well with your patience.

I find that writing down "discussion topics" helps me to organize my talks with my W. I keep these in a journal in my briefcase, where W won't find them and confront me about them in a mean or angry way. I have stopped short of writing a letter to W since the letter idea doesn't seem to work too well (it would give W something to throw in my face, if she wanted to, and she would probably misinterpret my words). So, I write down short ideas that could turn into discussions. Maybe that would work for you too?

Did you buy the Sex-Starved Marriage book? If so, have you started reading it? It does help give new ideas and meanings to things in your M. How are you doing with PM?


- Chris.