Thanks for your response. Yes, I have been reading your thread, and it does sound like we're in a very similar boat.
Quote: I think you are having the same problem that I've been having. Our H's exhibit immature behavior because we treat them too much like children. If we try to take a "tough" PM style stand, it is just another version of acting like "Mommy". The only change is that instead of being an "indulgent" Mom (like I used to be) or a Mom inclined to lose her temper(like you used to be?) we are being "calm and in charge" Moms. This is somewhat effective for the obvious reason that this approach works so well with children. Like you, I think there is a limit to it's effectiveness in an equal relationship between adults. The goal shouldn't be that we get better "behavior" from our H's because we do a better job "parenting" them. The goal should be to stop parenting our H's and hope that they will choose to grow up and meet us as equals.
I will admit that I do tend to address our problems in the way that I would address problems with the kids, or a student. My previous anger was very much a defense mechanism - a knee jerk response to avoid dealing with the hurt straight on. I've also, like you tried to be indulgent. Thing is, I would never do either of those things with my kids! What works best with them is to remain calm, let them tell me their point of view before I try to explain my own. I try to explain why my view is probably the best one...(or if all else fails, just say 'because I'm the mom!)
H doesn't like to hear my explanations. He wants things spelled out black and white, yes or no answers. I like to explore all the possibilities, or explain my POV. He gets very anxious with this, and cuts me off, asks me just to make a decision. It's as though he wants me to be the mom and make the decisions.
Who makes the major decisions? In a way, neither of us. Earlier this summer, FIL wanted to make a railing for our front walk so that MIL would have an easier time getting up the stairs. H told me about it as FIL was driving over to put it in. I got upset that I wasn't informed, or asked, H said he already knew what my response would be, and that FIL had already stated that if we didn't take this 'gift', he would refuse to help out with the kids (!?!?)
With the phone for my daughter, H mentioned this about a year ago, and I said I thought it was too soon. Then he went and bought it without consulting me last week.
H has took over family finances about 4 yrs ago, when we moved in here. So I am in the position of having to ask him about any purchases. It's almost as though H wants me to make the decisions - on his timetable.
I will admit that I can tend to be 'bossy'. As I'm the one who takes the most responsibility for the daily running of things, I do get annoyed when H sleeps in till noon, then gets up and tells me how I should be doing things. I honestly would like to come to a compromise, but don't know how to break the gridlock. And I guess I am pretty lousy at setting boundaries with H.
It does sound like your H takes more initiative than mine. As I indicated in an earlier post, I would be happy if my H would do something like buy a phone for our D. My H might say "Don't you think you ought to buy a phone for D?" but he would never go out and do it himself. His methods of controlling our home environment are complaining about something until I put it on my To Do list or using his boyish charm/sulking to get me to spoil him.
Quote: I will admit that I can tend to be 'bossy'. As I'm the one who takes the most responsibility for the daily running of things, I do get annoyed when H sleeps in till noon, then gets up and tells me how I should be doing things. I honestly would like to come to a compromise, but don't know how to break the gridlock. And I guess I am pretty lousy at setting boundaries with H.
Ditto. I once told my H that I felt that he loved me the way Mr. Brady loved Alice. I guess what I was trying to convey was that he treated me like a servant/mother rather than a wife/lover. Sort of like I was his nursemaid and he was my spoiled charge. On the one hand, I had power in the relationship because I was more like the adult and he was the child. On the other hand, he had more power because he was in a sense my employer and I had to indulge him more than my "real" children. It sounds like this is what is going on in your relationship too.
In a way, being a SAHM or making less money than your H can feel like an equitable relationship if you naturally have a stronger personality. The problem is the problem we're having. If your job in life is to be a strong maternal presence, it's hard not to be perceived as a strong maternal presence by your H. Since few men actually are "motherf*ckers", obvious problems arise.
I know I am oversimplifying the situation, but my current mindset is that I(you?) should concentrate on not mothering our H's while being careful not to be so reactionary that we start acting like children ourselves. Step back, act like a grown-up, wait calmly until another grownup shows up and wants to have sex with you.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Wow, I'm hesitant to jump in here since I'm the H and not the HDW.
I have to ask you both (MM and heap)... does it really matter if your Hs revert back to their former attitudes/behaviors once in a while? Are you afraid that, if they do, they'll just stay that way? And... are your perceived expectations of your H too high, or so high that your H can never achieve your goals for him?
IMO, a M can't be good ALL the time since each partner has a different opinion of what he/she wants or needs from life. This want/need can change on a daily basis sometimes! I know, for myself, that there are days that I enjoy giving my W and D6 and D2 everything that they want... and there are days that I wish that everyone would leave me alone so I can do what I want to do (IOW I want to be selfish and have MY way for a change, if only for a day). I can hear my W say, "but I never get to do that... why should you?" Well, I feel entitled to it after servicing the family for days on end. Yes, I said entitled... selfish as that may be. I don't understand why she can't feel similarly and be selfish once in a while, but maybe that's not a "mom thing."
I know that I have a lot of work to do in my M, but I'm willing to wait around for months/years for that work to pay off. I don't want a D, and I don't have an "escape plan," so I'm willing to do that. I know that I won't wake up tomorrow to a different W... I won't magically have a W who's more HD or more aware of my needs for physical touch. I have to keep talking to her. I have to keep telling her about what I want, through all of the future sicknesses and times of job stress and winter blahs and minor crises that could sidetrack or derail my messages.
Now, if in 2+ years my W is still treating the M and me as she is now (more roommate/best friend and less husband/partner)... my opinions will be different. I may formulate an escape plan. I may whack her over the head with my copy of PM. I may look back and find that the 2+ years were a waste of time. I have no idea where I'm going, and that's a little upsetting. BUT... I'm going to keep working on things and hoping that it gets better rather than staying status quo.
Quote: I know, for myself, that there are days that I enjoy giving my W and D6 and D2 everything that they want... and there are days that I wish that everyone would leave me alone so I can do what I want to do (IOW I want to be selfish and have MY way for a change, if only for a day). I can hear my W say, "but I never get to do that... why should you?" Well, I feel entitled to it after servicing the family for days on end. Yes, I said entitled... selfish as that may be. I don't understand why she can't feel similarly and be selfish once in a while, but maybe that's not a "mom thing."
I actually kind of agree with you Chris. I think that part of what I am trying to do in order to be less of a "mom" to my H is to be more of a kid myself. This is why I mentioned on my thread that I thought that it would be a good thing for my H to see me going to a Pixies concert in downtown Detroit dressed in a sexy outfit. I don't fit anybody's image of a mom if I'm doing something like that. I bet your W could benefit from a bit more 'fun" in her life too. Why don't you encourage her to not feel guilty about casting off her "mom" role and coming out to play.
That said, the fact of the matter is we are all adults with adult responsibilities so most of the time we have to behave like adults, so my ultimate goal has to be to treat my H like an adult rather than to let myself behave like a child. Shucks.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I think we all should be kids once in a while... constantly being an adult is not much fun. I have to remember, though, that my W thinks that I'm a kid already, so I can't regress too much.
Doesn't your H want to go with you to the concert?
Chris, I will admit that I've been pretty bad at letting myself have 'time off'. Partially because I sensed that H would sulk for a couple of days afterwards, which may be true, or it may of course just be that I may have my antennae switched on high
Last Sunday I went out for a walk with a close GF. She knows my sitch pretty well, and she just went through a nasty adoption (ended up having to give up the boy ) so we try to take time out just to walk and talk. When I got home, no one was there, H had left his cell phone on his desk. I had calmed down enough when they got back from their walk not to say anything, thank goodness, but I would never think of going out with the kids without leaving some kind of message, or letting H know if he was expecting us.
The rest of this message probably will degenerate into intense whining so I'll warn you now, you can skip it if you want
First I should say that I'm pretty new at this, so for me there's no 'reverting' necessary, I'm still trying to untangle myself and figure out how to approach things.
I consider myself a pretty easy going person. Don't get me wrong, I have a temper, and I know I can be controlling at times. But I've never nagged H about leaving things around, and I hate that he expects me to act like his mother by expecting me to make personal decisions for him.
I started doing most of the housework because if I didn't H would get miserable. This started after the birth of our first child, and in trying to get over my anger I thought that this was what H needed to know I still cared. Besides, if H did help, he would make a big production out of it, and spend the whole time complaining that if I had cleaned right in the first place he wouldn't have to do so much work. Then spend the next week complaining that the kitchen he had just cleaned was dirty again. It was just easier to do it myself than to listen to that.
Yes, I got very resentful. I'm sure I wasn't very pleasant to be with. D8 was a very demanding baby, and H + I both walked around the first year in a sort of psychotic sleep deprived fog. I would get up with her because H was working, but H never offered to let me sleep in on the weekends.
I know that M can't be all fun and games, and I understand that there is a lot of hard work involved, and that life with 4 young kids is far from easy. I understand that there is going to be a lot of rough times along the way. But is it so wrong for me to wish that H would take some interest in our family life? Not to mention me...
Last summer I took the kids to the States for 6 weeks, and H met us there for the last 10 days. That was the first family trip we had taken since the boys were born - and I mean we hadn't done more than spend a weekend at H's parents' summer cottage - with the in-laws there, and H spends the weekend reading for the most part. He doesn't play in the yard with the kids, though I will give him credit that he has gotten better this summer.
H sleeps in on the weekends. He is a night owl, and often when he's off from work will stay up till 3-4am, then sleep in 'till noon. A year or so ago I decided that I would throw aside my resentment and just pretend he wasn't there. I really thought that H would hear us in the morning and want to join us. Instead, he seems to have taken it as a message that he can sleep in - and there hasn't been a weekend for the past year or so that he hasn't woken up before noon, unless we are going somewhere. He comes downstairs after the kids and I have eaten, expects me to make his breakfast, turns on the stereo, and reads the newspaper. Often after that, he goes into the computer room for the rest of the afternoon.
I know that I need to set boundaries. But it's very hard when H picks all the time about my language, how I keep house, how I fold clothes, park the car, etc. I will admit that I did loose a great deal of self-esteem.
Part of the problem is H doesn't seem to know how to have fun. He has no friends to go out with, his hobbies consist of sitting on commitees and doing a lot of layout and editing/translating work. I know he enjoys it, but I also know it just adds to his stress. Any time he has an opportunity to do something, he goes out with the attitude that he won't have fun, and comes home as soon as he possibly can.
So I don't complain if he takes a day now and then to just 'veg out'. And in some ways I'm happy that he doesn't come down in the mornings. But he still complains that I don't do enough, or do things the right way, and he still pushes my attempts at affection aside.
If H were pleasant 50% of the time, it would be such a big change that I would probably throw a party. If we ML once a month, I wouldn't know how to contain myself ( I hope I would keep quiet for a while that I wanted more)
I honestly have been trying to be more positive around H, and I know there is a lot more that I can do. I also realize that in order for H to 'change', I'm going to have to stick to holding on to myself, set a lot firmer boundaries, and I already have gone a long way to being more organized. I have been quilty of 'martyrdom', but I've also realized how that does more harm than good. I'm not going that way again, I hope.
But I do still long for a hug, a kiss a strong embrace. I wish that H would tell me I'm beautiful...
It isn't easy for H. I've tried to be better at noticing the little things. A few years ago he gave me a very thoughtfull Christmas present, and I did try to thank him - and keep thanking him long after he gave it. Last night I performed at the party held after BIL presented his doctoral thesis, and while H didn't say anything, I did notice he seemed proud after that.
I've made a point of saying little things to him during the day, even though H usually doesn't agknowledge it. If I try to tell him about my day, he says 'what can I do ?,', and he would never think of sharing his day with me.
I've tried to understand that he is a very private person, and that our needs are different. But I still feel incredably lonely some times.
If anyone has actually read this to the end, I'll appologize now for the whining. I'm not even sure it helped me to get it off my chest. There are times when I just want to put PM away, and just 'forget' there are any problems, not because it's hard (which it is) but because I just want to be normal. I just want to get to where I can get mad or annoyed at H and make up, even if it takes a week
To end on an upbeat, my H is a very intellegent person, with a perfectionist nature, which though it makes him very difficult to live with, can be very beneficial at times. I do appreciate the fact that he keeps very good track of our finances, which enables us to live in a beautiful home, even though I am 'only' a musician
You need to "throw yourself at your H" and ML already... no matter what his excuses are, don't accept them. Break the ice. Attack him. Get him alone and get him "in the mood" somehow. Show him that you want to reconnect physically. Do it before he goes back to work, or do it during his first week back to work.
If he lacks enthusiasm, just "do" him instead. Just do it. See how it goes.
Then, evaluate how it went. Did it help him feel more relaxed? Was he smiling more the following day? Is he more agreeable to talking?
Evaluate yourself too. Was ML all that you wanted it to be after so many years? Did you get what you wanted? Was it worth the aggravation of all the thoughts about what could go wrong?
After all, he's your H. What's a M without sex besides just a friendship? Is he just a source of money for you and the kids, or is he needed around the house?
Quote: You need to "throw yourself at your H" and ML already... no matter what his excuses are, don't accept them. Break the ice. Attack him. Get him alone and get him "in the mood" somehow. Show him that you want to reconnect physically. Do it before he goes back to work, or do it during his first week back to work.
If he lacks enthusiasm, just "do" him instead. Just do it. See how it goes.
Chris, if the roles were reversed, this would probably be called "marital rape." I know my wife would consider it so. I wonder how Mr. Heap would consider it? Of course, I have a weight/strength advantage over W, but doubt that Heapmom has the same advantage over her H.
Quote: Chris, if the roles were reversed, this would probably be called "marital rape." I know my wife would consider it so.
Oh sure, I didn't mean for her to strap Mr. Heap down to the chair/bed and keep him there against his will... at least not for TOO long. I think that Mr. Heap's constant mental abuse (by being cold/standoffish/non-verbal) is worse than heap trying to get laid after several years. Sometimes, extreme circumstances call for extreme measures... don't they?
Chris... I am also rooting for Kathy/Heap to get f**ked after so many yrs, but the one shot deal that will miraculously straighten it all out is just a fantasy ( it is a nice fantasy though).
More practically speaking, what seemed to get things on track for me after a long period of sexual avoidance and chaos was the weekly date night thing. We made a commitment to relate to each other in a more man/woman way on that nite, and while we both botched it up in different ways (and still do), we have a structure in place to confront and deal with our sex issues. It's awkward and difficult in the beginning, but it's a great way to start. IHJ
Why don't you encourage her to not feel guilty about casting off her "mom" role and coming out to play.
I have to remember, though, that my W thinks that I'm a kid already, so I can't regress too much.
) so we try to take time out just to walk and talk. When I got home, no one was there, H had left his cell phone on his desk. I had calmed down enough when they got back from their walk not to say anything, thank goodness, but I would never think of going out with the kids without leaving some kind of message, or letting H know if he was expecting us. 
