In need of support and opinions

[hopefulhub]

I have been reading here for a couple of months, and now I feel I need your help and support,

Here is my story...

Me: 33
Wife: (30 soon)
together: 6 years
Married: 4 soon
My wife tells me and others that I am the perfect husband. So what is wrong and how can I make things right?

We had been dating for little more than a year when we moved in together. Sex was often and satisfying to me. We have plenty in common and I was sure that I had found my soulmate. Shortly after we moved in together my wife began pressing me for marriage. She was sure that we were meant to be together and I also believe that a part of her wanted to marry in order to gain approval from her parents over our living arrangement (strict Catholics).

I was more than willing and soon after we were engaged. That's when the frequency of our sexual encounters dropped off dramatically. We went from 2 or 3 times a week, to once a month. I remember feeling like the "tone" of our encounters went from lustful to dutiful on her part.

Within 6 months we were married and things went south from there. We went to Mexico for a one week honeymoon and did not have sex at all.

I was confused, hurt, and very worried about our marriage, but I did not mention it. I thought that she may simply be nervous about her new life with me and I wanted to give her space and be her friend and a supportive husband.

For the next 3 years we ML about once every month or two. Her initiaing only. She would often apologize for her lack of libido and I was understanding and supportive of her. Otherwise we got along splendidly. She is truly a best friend to me and I didn't want to mess it up over sex. I did notice that she would only initiate sex after she had a few drinks and I found this unsettling because whe is not much of a drinker.

Two months ago my wife came home from work and told me....."I love you but I'm not IN LOVE with you".....

She said that she was having sexual feelings for a coworker and, while nothing inappropriate took place, these feelings scared her. She was afraid because she was having sexual feelings for others, but no longer wanted to touch me.

I pressed and she said that I wasn't keeping up my appearance (a claim I dispute but nonetheless I quickly dropped 20 lbs, get regular haircuts, contact, new clothes, etc. She says I look great now.), we didn't have much in common anymore, she needed space, still has the urge to "party" all of the time, doesn't know if she can be married, etc.... She then said it wasn't really my probelsm and that she has had this happen in previous relationships.

I freaked out on her and then calmed down and read DBing and PM and a number of other books.

Wife agreed to go to counseling (without me only as she claims it is HER problem) and try to work things out. At the second session her counselor told her that she may just be too immature to find lasting love, she may not be "wired that way" etc., and we quickly agreed on a separation.

Two days later I was helping her put her things together to move and she broke down and basically begged me to let her stay.

I relented and continued DBing.

Things have improved some, but she still needs a few drinks before we ML. Otherwise she has been more friendly and attentive without any real intimacy (ILY's or kissing, hugging).

So tonight I decided to try and initiate sex (she had just come home from happy hour) and I was politely
shot down. It was the first time I have tried to initiate sex in 5 years.

I don't know where to to go from here. Do I put force the issue a la PM, or continue to be patient as DBing requires?

I don't want to live my life without sex, and it seems that this is the real issue behind our current situation.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[SolidMechanic]

I don't want to live my life without sex, and it seems that this is the real issue behind our current situation.

Let me preface this advice by saying I don't really know anything, so take this for what it is worth.

This is about way more than sex. It is about whether two people can really be close to one another. Your wife seems to be doing what she can to sabotage your marriage. Maybe having a new voice validate her gives her a thrill that she can't get from you anymore. When you tell her you like how she looks in that dress (you do tell her that, don't you?) she may not believe it anymore. After all, your married, and you are supposed to say stuff like that.

The sexual frustration that has been building up in you is a barrier to her. If you want her back, you have to tear down these barriers. But it is not enough. You cannot change her. That is the most important thing you should realize. Change yourself. Be the best human being you can possibly be. Have faith. That's all you can do.

Best regards,

Tony

[NOPkins]

hopefulhub wrote:
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So tonight I decided to try and initiate sex (she had just come home from happy hour)
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Why was she at happy hour without you?

Quote:
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Two months ago my wife came home from work and told me....."I love you but I'm not IN LOVE with you".....
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This is affair speak. It doesn't absolutely mean she is having an affair, but that statement is heard frequently by betrayed spouses.

I would encourage you not to panic, but quietly and without your spouse knowing about it, check up on her. There are some other good threads on this systems about affairs.

I hope I am wrong about this. In fact, I usually am wrong about affairs, but I felt I should speak up anyway.

If she is not having an affair, then both of you need to read TSSM asap. Secondly, regardless of what she says, you are NOT meeting all her needs and you are not the perfect husband.

Since you are here, you get to change first.

Please keep us posted!
-NOPkins-

[TiredJeff]

HH,

Listen to the Mechanic - the only way to go is to be the best you can for you. This will make you better for your W too as a side effect. It is a long road and often seems very lonely. I tend to drift into episodes of melencholy where I wonder why I am doing this, but I expect that to happen and then she does something that reminds me why I love her - not to mention our one year old son!

This is the best place for support and opinions! Just watch out for people like me who speak out of frustration some times.

I am new on my DB journey and I actually started with SSM because I thought the problem was 100% sexual (it was from my point of view). However, I have learned that for her sex was a side issue that was just pushing her further from me every time that I tried to make it all about sex.

I can see improvement in my sitch and hope - although different from your sitch in many ways disturbingly alike in the progression of the physical relationship - that you come to see improvement in your sitch! I have changed in ways that I didn't anticipate and wouldn't have wanted to, but in hindsight I am happier than when I started my journey.

Jeff

[Dmsw4]

I have to say first that I sound like your wife. I never had an affair, but when the situation got really bad, I was worried that I might. Well, H beat me to it. That got my attention. I started falling all over myself to try to right my wrongs. I felt that I was responsible for his having an affair. I guess I'm partly right, but you can only control yourself. I didn't make him have an affair, so If you find out that she has, don't blame yourself.

We never had a honeymoon, but H reminds me that we did not ML on our wedding night either. We were both exhausted. Do you think this happens often? Well, I never intentionally turned down ML, but it just happened. There is just something about that thrill of the first kiss and waiting to ML for the first time, and the all consuming passion that is at the beginning of a relationship. Isn't it great? It doesn't last. But it doesn't have to be the end either. You won't be able to make her read or listen to anything, but The Passionate Marriage by Snarch was enlightening. He talks about marriage being a people growing machine. We don't mold the marriage, it molds us. Well, I'm not the expert on him, but over in SSM, there are some that will quote him at the drop of a hat. Interesting stuff. How about the Five Love Languages? Have you read that? Also interesting, although it made me cry. Its principles can be applied to many relationships, not just marriage. I thought it was worth a look.

Well, just wanted to know that I was reading your post and wish you well. I wish I knew what drives us to do the things we do. I was never trying to be distant or to push him away, but it was a vicious cycle. We wouldn't ML for a while, he would complain or nag and I would say to myself, well that's not the way to go about it buddy, and it would be just a little longer. What if he would have sent me a rose, called my from work, opened the door for me, what would it hurt..Kenny Rogers...Or if he would have booked the sitter and taken me out for dinner, surprised me with a weekend away from the kids. I love it when he makes dinner. Talking to me always works to. Get me a glass of wine, turn off the TV and sit on the couch with me.

Whatever, who knows. Maybe she is just immature. I know that I was at one time. I think I'm growing up, but at what price, eh?

[hopefulhub]

Thank you for the replies. This message board has been a great help to me over the last couple of months. In response to some of your thoughts:

This is about way more than sex. It is about whether two people can really be close to one another. Your wife seems to be doing what she can to sabotage your marriage. Maybe having a new voice validate her gives her a thrill that she can't get from you anymore. When you tell her you like how she looks in that dress (you do tell her that, don't you?) she may not believe it anymore. After all, your married, and you are supposed to say stuff like that.

SolidMechanic you seem to know exactly what's going on. I have always been very complimentary and affirming to my wife. I have told her each day for six years that I love her and that she is beautiful. I buy her gifts and often cancel other plans to spend time with her. I try and give her everything that she wants both materially and as a companion. I have stopped doing this now, but I fear that someone else will step in and do it for me if I continue to withhold from her.

Why was she at happy hour without you?

Yes. Always. We work 30 minutes in opposite directions from our home, so it is difficult for me to attend. Her drinking and partying (with or without me there) has increased dramatically in recent months. She jokes about it. She is fast approaching her 30th birthday, so I am cutting her some slack on this, but I am quietly concerned.

This is affair speak. It doesn't absolutely mean she is having an affair, but that statement is heard frequently by betrayed spouses.

I have my eyes wide open for this, but I truly do not beleive there is an affair going on for several reasons:

1) I have never caught her in even the smallest of lies since I've known her. She is excruciatingly honest and cannot keep a secret to save her life.

2) I have confronted her several times (pre-DBing) and she has denied it each time.

3) I have snooped very thoroughly and checked on her whereabouts and everything has checked out.

4) There isn't much opportunity. She could be sending lusty emails at work, but otherwise I don't know when she could pull it off.

Secondly, regardless of what she says, you are NOT meeting all her needs and you are not the perfect husband

There is no question that this is true. It has just been very difficult to get her to tell me what she needs me to do. She insists that I am wonderful and attentive and caring....and on and on.....

Nonetheless I have tried to be more mysterious, independent, attractive, less needy, more friendly, less pressuring for answers etc for about 2 months. I have seen some progress, but there is no intimacy, and I am wondering now if there ever really was any.

It is a long road and often seems very lonely.

We have no children and I am growing very impatient. Can it ever be great again or will I have to settle for "good"? Will I have to go through life as a colder, more reserved spouse forever in order to get some occasional positive response from my wife? Whenever I withhold from her, a little part of me dies inside. That seems to negate any positive response I receive from her in return. Very frustrating.

There is just something about that thrill of the first kiss and waiting to ML for the first time, and the all consuming passion that is at the beginning of a relationship. Isn't it great? It doesn't last.

I feel that my wife expected our marriage to be like this always. This is the feeling she wants to regain so badly for herself. Part of me feels that our relationship began declining the morning after we first had sex.

We wouldn't ML for a while, he would complain or nag and I would say to myself, well that's not the way to go about it buddy, and it would be just a little longer. What if he would have sent me a rose, called my from work, opened the door for me, what would it hurt..Kenny Rogers...Or if he would have booked the sitter and taken me out for dinner, surprised me with a weekend away from the kids. I love it when he makes dinner. Talking to me always works to. Get me a glass of wine, turn off the TV and sit on the couch with me.

I never complained or nagged and did exactly what you suggested from the beginning. I suspect now that my wife has lost some respect for me as a result. The wedge in our sex life was never my nagging or complaining, but her guilt over lack of desire.

How screwy is this? I feel like I'm playing a game I cannot win.

I'll throw in one more oddity from our relationship:

My wife will not go on vacation with me. She has no desire to be alone with me anywhere on vacation. I have offered to take her ANYWHERE she would like to go. She says she's not the vacationing type.

That hurts.

[tbone]

A few thoughts from a Db veteran:

1) When she is "out", you should be out(MIA). I don't care where (library, mall, gym, etc.), just let her come home to an empty house and wonder where you are.

2) Keep up the improved image thing going and get to the gym. Combine "buff" with "MIA" and she will get concerned that you have pursued interests of your own. You don't have to pursue anything just let her think that you might. Its a wake-up call.

3) When you are together and things are going well give her a full body massage. A $2 bottle of baby oil works great and every grocery store has it. You don't need a $20 bottle of massage oil. If this doesn't fire her up then something really isn't right.

4) Don't buy flowers, corny cards, make any undue professing of love for her or do anything to try to "win" her back (i.e. vacations, fancy dinners, etc.) Makes you look weak and she doesn't want that from you right now. She is in minor MLC and is probably looking for a "bad boy". Sounds stupid but really nice guys rarely win this battle unless they fully sell out their integrity.

5) Quit being her H for awhile and just be her boyfriend or lover. It is so much easier being in that mindset. Takes the possessiveness out of the R and reduces your desire to snoop. You pretty much need to do the opposite of your instincts until things change for the better or worse. I heard this too but wasn't very good at it. Please do better than I did.

6) The above 5 ideas will work unless she has already decided to move on. If she has it will prepare you better to move on as well. Not trying to be cold here, just factual.

You are 100% responsible for your 50% of the R. That is all. You can't do a thing about her 50%. Take care of yours and pray that she is strong enough to take care of hers. This "partying" thing is absolutely no good. The problem is that there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. It probably isn't a big deal now so if you bring it up she will blow you off. However, be prepared for it to escalate before it stops, if it stops. This is one area that I brought in my W family on. She wasn't happy about it but it was getting pretty bad and I felt I had no choice. Don't get her family involved in the R issues, just the "boozing".

FYI, Been there, done that with your sitch. Been here off and on since '02. We still have our issues but our base is more solid. Become the bad boy you always wanted to be by being strong, patient and independent, yet loving when she really needs you. You will backslide but keep the damage to a minimum by walking away when it gets ugly. Not professing to be a know it all but seen this all before.

Good luck,

TBONE

[Bube]

tbone,

That was great. You said exactly what I was thinking even better than I could have.

Wildebube

[NotATLDave]

hh,

Nonetheless I have tried to be more mysterious, independent, attractive, less needy, more friendly, less pressuring for answers etc for about 2 months. I have seen some progress, but there is no intimacy, and I am wondering now if there ever really was any.

You can ride a unicycle around the house and balance chairs on your head and she's not going to respond. You won't be able to seduce her either. I don't have time to explain it right now but the real solution ends up seeming "easy" in comparison to other's advice and can affect change quickly. The best part of this process is that you will heal your own personal issues as a side affect of working through the SSM issue. I have found the increase in my sex life to be almost insignificant compared to the changes I've made in myself. Just hang in there and don't do anything nutty yet.

BTW. The travel thing is a real bummer. My W would rather go to movies rather than dinner dates. But I think both of these things are indicative of something in the situation.

Listen man, I've been there and done all that with the same pathetic results. It only fueled my anxiety (or insanity) about the situation. Be very careful when it comes to doing 180s and "diet book" solutions. By "diet book", I mean that a lot of self help authors throw out "do x,y,z and you'll be fine" and what usually happens when you start a diet? Don't spend any time worrying about love languages, 180s, being mysterious, playing games (like making her think you have some 'action' on the side), etc. This is a waste of time at this stage of the game and will only make her think "geez, I guess I really didn't know him to begin with". What you should try to do is be the *you* that she married. You may feel like the same person today, but you've made some concessions in the interest of "peace" and "compromise". In this process, you've sold yourself out to some degree. This happens in all relationships and the LD spouse is like "marital carbon monoxide detector" even if they didn't want to be. One of the best things to understand is that your W is wired in a completely different way than you.

I'll give you 3 pieces of advice to get started (This was the only thing I got out of 5 counseling sessions...grrrr)
1. Read PM (Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch)
2. Work on on your anxiety by any means necessary. It seems scary and unsolvable now but have faith that you can have results.
3. Don't worry about what she is thinking, or feeling...just focus on your own feelings about her behavior. ie. don't take responsibility for her moods, actions or feelings. Just focus on what YOU want and how you want to be treated. In a month or so, you will start taking a series of "stands" which will break the gridlock. Why so long? It will take a while to rewire your brain so that your thinking is "instinctive". This "rewire" is the real 180.

[hopefulhub]

Again, thank you. I am following most of these steps already and she is showing signs of life.

3) When you are together and things are going well give her a full body massage. A $2 bottle of baby oil works great and every grocery store has it. You don't need a $20 bottle of massage oil. If this doesn't fire her up then something really isn't right.

Well......I hate to say this but......she doesn't like to be touched.

That's right. Not at all. Not by anyone. I have tried to buy her one of those spa treatments with the massage and pedicure and all that. She won't go. Touch her around the face, neck, head, shoulders and she flinches and recoils. Hugging makes her uncomfortable. Handholding makes her nervous and sweaty. I am fairly certain it's not just me. I see her react similarly around family and friends. She gets uncomfortable watching other people hug or kiss. She claims she's always been this way. I noticed that her whole family avoids physical contact except for polite "pat on the back" type hugs.

If I even offered to give her a massage or buy her one, she would be repulsed.

I know there's other issues and areas for improvement, but I believe that sex/intimacy is going to make or break this marriage. It always comes back to this issue and the hurtful way both of us have been dealing with it.

I am working to break down the walls that I have built and I believe (before last night) that I have made some progress.

I'm wondering now if I can get something back that I never had in the first place.