Quote: "I don't want sex because then I'll know you love me. I want sex because I won't be able to continue loving you without it.".
That's a keeper. It may be hard for them to hear it, but they probably should hear it. I know I anticipate my W's reaction to things a lot, but I think her reaction to that would be, "well, then that is YOUR problem."
The trouble is, it's both of our problems, she just won't own up to her part in it.
Quote: This is what I meant by a method that is too "warm" and makes me feel like a Stepford Wife. I am not an incredible loving being. I feel like a big faker if I try to be one. I am pretty much an ordinary loving being with a low tolerance for "mush". Hallmark stores give me hives.
That's really interesting, I think. That you would equate a sentence, 'incredible loving being that you are,' to mush. Yet you chose to interpret it that way. Huh.
Quote: I am frustrated because though I am happy that my H is now behaving in a more loving manner, that isn't really what I was after.
So you are frustrated at him because you did not communicate clearly? Maybe your husband is not the one who is having a problem establishing or communicating EC. Are you hesitant to tell your H that the roses are great, but you don't want them, you just want sex?
This is what I meant by a method that is too "warm" and makes me feel like a Stepford Wife. I am not an incredible loving being. I feel like a big faker if I try to be one. I am pretty much an ordinary loving being with a low tolerance for "mush". Hallmark stores give me hives.
Mojo,
Equating "loving" with some vision of a stepford wife is akin to equating "integrity" with going to church. Loving starts when you love your whacky self first, then share what you can with others. I know a couple folks in the BDSM crowd and I can promise you that as their partner's skin glows bright red after a loud whap, they feel very "loving" and their partner feels very "loved". One of the best examples of this was on Six Feet Under when Brenda's new boyfriend confessed that he liked to be dominated and Brenda "gave" him domination. Our (the whining HD's) problem is that our partner's aren't giving us enough "gifts" therefore we are questioning ourselves and not loving ourselves because we have given control of our self-love to our partner.
Seriously Mojo, *I* would think that you were incredibly "loving". Your way of expression is through "get to the point" sexual overtness. It might overwhelm some men but people like myself would completely dig it.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Now that we are talking about PM induced benefits, I will jump in and say that for me it was: learning to hold on to myself; self validation instead of other validation--a big one for me who was used to 'using' men's desire as a way to guage how attractive I was; and the big one for my M was giving me a way to dialogue with H. Prior to this, I just didn't know how to phrase what I needed to say..it all came out jumbled up and desperate-sounding. After reading PM, I learned how to say it in a way that he can't argue with (though he still tries) and in a way that does not place the focus on him, but on myself.
As far as the books go, I think that a book written from the HDW perspective is long overdue. Mojo, get to work.
I remember before I discovered PM (which was one of the first books I read in regards to this issue, thank goodness) I read a book called "What to do when he has a headache". Gosh it was awful. It was written by an LDW and the suggestions were the usual: Get him to a doctor, wear sexy things, be nice and ask about his day, etc. It was SO bad that I think it actually set me back just to read it! It would have been great for a previously HD man who has just lost interest in his wife b/c she turned him down one too many times. To indicate that on the title or the jacket would have saved lots of tears on my part.
I have told my H that in order to continue to love and cherish him for the rest of my days, I will need frequent sex. I am not sure he believed me, though! I mean, he heard the words and knows that I was serious but I don't think he can wrap his mind around a day coming in which I won't worship the ground he walks on. And who can blame him? He has been, during the course of our M, alternately a nonexistant lover, told me that he didn't see how a wife fit into his religious views (this after being married for 7 yrs), not shown any demonstrable signs of desire, rejected me countless times for sex, set up sex 'dates' and then stood me up, ETCCCC. And through this I continue to love him. So he is not a whacko for thinking that I am just blowin smoke. It is naturally very hard for him to see such a day coming because it does not fit in with his vision of how his little missus operates.
What I can't figure out is if he is willing to take the chance and see if I am bluffing or not. So far, HE IS NOT. So there must have been something that struck him as true in that statement.
Corri, You know, I am a very loving person to H. He is constantly bragging to people at his work, in his family, in my family, about what a great wife he has and how loving and cheerful I am. I do find it hard to keep that love going in the face of obvious rejections of my wants that I have clearly stated. Who wouldn't? Once, yeah, I'll let it slide. Twice, three times, etc, I start to wonder why I am putting myself out there for a person who doesn't care what I want from him. Is this resentment? Sure you bet. Would taking a bath allow me to ditch it? probably not since it is a legitimate need that has been voluntarily neglected by HIS CHOICE. I really do get what you are saying and I try to live it every day of my life. H even said last night that I pull it off 99% of the time. So it's not a matter of me not operating from a position of love--it's a matter of me operating from a place in which I am ready to dole out the consequences, should he continue to neglect the way of life that HE agreed upon. I know that sounds ignernt (to quote my neighbor) but it is what I have arrived at.
However, I do want to reiterate that I do not automatically resort to a PM bashing that shoots his self esteem to bits at the first sign of trouble. The first thing I would do is to approach is lovingly. It is only after these loving signals get ignored or brushed away that I start getting mean. Maybe this is where I need to work on. What I've been doing aint working.
Thanks for the thoughts; they were lovely and eloquent.
Perhaps I should not have posted what I did, because as I look back on it, it could be interpreted as very preachy. If you all took it that way, I apologize. That was not my intent.
I think perhaps Dave might see what I was saying, and that could be because of the place he has reached... that 'spiritual' part of the PM book that JakeS pointed out that went so 'undiscussed.' I think now I understand why there was no further discussion of it. It isn't anything you can discuss and adequately explain to someone. It is only something that you discover for yourself.
One of my most favorite quotes ever goes: "Truth cannot be communicated; it can only be laid bare." This might be one of those things.
Quote: Why was I so "in love" with a man who didn't want to have sex with me and didn't really treat me all that well otherwise?
If you substitute the word “am” in place of “I” and change the genders, this becomes a question I’ve asked myself many times. Now the question I have for you is this: is there an answer to a question like that?
This reminds me of when the C asked me, “Why do you want to ML with your W?” Is there really an answer? If I answer that it helps me to feel close to her, or connected to her, or loved by her, or important to her, or any of a thousand other answers, that just raises more questions. Why do I need sex to feel close to her? If she were to become physically unable to ML, would the feelings of being loved or feeling important to her vanish?
If you’ve come up with an answer, I would really love to hear it. These kinds of questions are what I’ve always thought of as “shrink questions” – they aren’t really answerable, they’re just designed to make you think.
Quote: So you are frustrated at him because you did not communicate clearly? Maybe your husband is not the one who is having a problem establishing or communicating EC. Are you hesitant to tell your H that the roses are great, but you don't want them, you just want sex?
Yes, this is very true. I am too cowardly to tell him this in a straight-forward manner. On the other hand, things are looking up because I just talked to him and my roundabout communication method seems to be finally working. I was not doing anything to hide my crabby mood, which was probably due to the fact that I spent the day on the beach yesterday in my new black bikini and received a multitude of clear indications that if I wasn't "trapped" in a marriage with a LD man, I could be getting all the action I could handle.(I am well aware that my feelings of being "trapped" are not my H's fault, but represent an internal conflict.)
My H said "It seems like you are in a crabby mood." and then asked me if I wanted to have phone sex tonight. I asked him if he thought it was pathetic that an offer of sex was all that it took to cheer me up. He said "No, if that's all that it takes, I am happy. I think I'm beginning to understand you.". DUHH!!. Why did it take so long? I am willing to partially blame myself, but I think society is to blame also. My H is having a real hard time believing that the nice woman he lives with JUST WANTS MORE SEX. I am not being pathetically giving by offering it all the time. I am not being pathetically emotionally needy by asking for it. I think he might actually be relieved, if he is able to truly accept me as I am, because like most guys,he doesn't much like Hallmark stores himself.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Mo, I don't know if it is society or not. I mean, he has lived with Mojo version 1 all this time and now he is supposed to adjust seamlessly to Mojo version 2 and believe that this was you all those years. He is just doing what any of us would do in that situation--holding on to the person we "know" and not fully seeing (yet) that this is not a change as much as a revelation, finally, of who you really are.
I would imagine it will just take time and consistency on your part for him to see that this is not neediness, or emotions, or a reaction to him traveling or whatever else he is telling himself it might be.
For the longest time, my H would chalk it all up to us having kids. Well I was feeling sex starved before we even conceived D4 (and the first two were almost NOT conceived, as I couldn't get him to have sex on 'the' days) but he has forgotten how it really was. Plus, I suffered in total silence so why should I expect him to have known that the real me was suffering and not enjoying the break?
It is only now, two yrs after me telling him what I was really made of, that he is finally able to see that what I am saying is true...cause it aint changing or dissipating.
Oh, one more thing, it is only recently that he stopped saying things like "Men are not like that..." or "With you being a woman..." etc. He was convinced that we still typified the model of the so-called normal H and W. That we went through a weird period but we still were rooted firmly in the normal roles. It has been a long time since he has said this and I believe that he can probably see now that we are NOT typical and that it applies to a lot of things besides our sex life. However, there are a lot of ways that he is the typical male and I am the typical female. We are not cookie cutter creations that perfectly fit a mold and that's okay. I'm sure he felt it was an assault on his masculinity to admit that his wife was more "manly" in some ways than he is. I doubt he ever stopped to think what it said about me, LOL! I feel that we are both more secure in our roles now and whether it fits into society doesn't matter so much.
I wonder if the news that their wives were sexually unhappy was MUCH harder on our guys' egos than they would ever let on? It would explain much of my H's focus on what "men" are like, etc.
Oh well I'm off to sweat my arse off while the D's ride bikes.
Quote: Why was I so "in love" with a man who didn't want to have sex with me and didn't really treat me all that well otherwise?
Now the question I have for you is this: is there an answer to a question like that?
The answer for me is found within the question itself. I discovered that the feeling of being "in love" for me was the equivalent of "emotional fusion". I now feel like I love my H very much, but I don't feel desperately, hopelessly infatuated. In fact, I would say that I really wasn't communicating clearly when I indicated in my previous post that I wouldn't be able to love my H if he didn't want to have sex with me. I could still love him as a friend and as the father of my children, but I wouldn't be able to love him as a lover. This seems self-evident, but for me it wasn't.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
