Slow and Steady

[NOPkins]

Dave said:
------------
Is it obvious that I'm waffling back and forth on this decision? NOPKins, are your there? I need your insight on this idea. But something tells me that I'm going to "let it go" tonight. I'll report back later.
------------

Sorry I haven't been around much. My workload has been severe.

Dave, all I can tell you is what I know to be true, FOR ME. It isn't 'PM-correct' and it isn't popular, but here it is.

In my situation, we still had problems with initiation, and performance and everything else that goes along with having sex. I have never really had any problem having an erection "on-demand". Regardless, in some of our earlier sessions as we began our recovery, my hard wood, whittled. I could get it up, but it was an effort, and that was a situation I was completely unaccustomed to.

Maybe the initiation hadn't gone as planned or she wasn't excited about it or I was feeling guilty or (insert reason here)...

What broke that for us, and allowed us to concentrate on getting to know each other again, was simple - a schedule.

What a schedule did for us was remove most of the uncertainty of initiation. That uncertainty had previously pre-tainted many of our love making sessions. By removing the uncertainty of initiation, we could concentrate on our lovemaking.

Secondly, I reduced my expectations for our sessions. Frankly, they were poison to our lovemaking sessions. She is still working not to feel pressure to perform in our sessions. My goal is for her to feel safe enough to be uninhibited. Simply put, we are getting there.

Ultimately, we will probably remove our schedule in lieu of spontaneity, but for now, a schedule serves us quite well. In the mean time, we can do both. There is no reason why we can't grab a 'quicky' in the bathroom at lunch and make love later that same day.

I really don't understand our (people in general) aversion to scheduled sex. After all, we do so many things according to a schedule. Eat, work, play, sleep. For sex, however, we think it needs to be spontaneous and take on some ethereal quality. That is certainly fun when it happens, but it doesn't really happen all that often. I have had many partners, but I can count truly spontaneous sexual encounters on both hands.

I initially detested the idea of having scheduled sex. When my wife and I finally decided that anything else was just too confusing, we started spending time actually having sex, making love and getting reacquainted with each other. We stopped arguing about who meant or said what during a botched initiation. We now spend a lot more (previously wasted) time and energy having sex.

So, my suggestion is to talk to your wife. Reach an agreement on how much time and when you will spend it together. Both of you make time to eat and work, time for your kids and family. Make some time for each other and stick to it. IT TAKES TIME to rebuild or strengthen a relationship. This is common sense. You don't have to read a book to realize that :-)

One last word bit of encouragement. You spend time practicing on your bike. You do this to be good at it. If you and your wife will invest time into your relationship practicing, you will get better at it.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[NotATLDave]

Thanks NOP,

I appreciate the response. If this "longshot" idea doesn't yield results and we start to backslide, then I will go back to the idea of a schedule. It just "feels" like this is "right" at this point in time. Having longer breaks, will stretch me. I already feel my EC being strong today despite no sex last night. I'm not distracted by it either. This might be better for me than her.

My goal is for her to feel safe enough to be uninhibited.

I'm not sure what you mean by this but my W is extremely uninhibited in terms of acts when we get going.

[TheNewChris]

Ya know, Dave, I think we all go through ups and downs, highs and lows, waves, cycles, etc. (couldn't think of the "right" words, sorry). It's only natural to adjust your approach to maintaining the EC when you need to. Now that your W has told you what you need to do (i.e. talk to her earlier in the day if you will want to ML later), I'm sure you're happier. And congrats on the talk!

I do like NOPkins' idea of reducing (and hopefully eliminating) the "poison" that affects how situations turn out. I am guilty of poisoning the water hole, just as we all are. I am working on my think first, react second issues. The problem is, there's a TON of stuff to think about!

I think a 2x per week "schedule" is a little restrictive, but a 2x per week "goal" is nice. If LM happens 3x or 4x, I hope you won't be inclined to "bank" those extra LM sessions for the following week. Just like my cell phone battery, we all need a recharge whenever usage increases (when our EC banks are experiencing more withdrawals than deposits, perhaps). Keep on letting us know how it's going.

- Chris (babbler extraordinar' today).

[NOPkins]

Dave said:
-----------------
I'm not sure what you mean by this but my W is extremely uninhibited in terms of acts when we get going.
-----------------

It was an example of what we are working through. We are having lots of sex, lots of practice, lots of opportunity to work through our issues without blowing our time working on initiation. For us, getting through some basic issues is far more important. So, like I said, we have made sure that we have time together.

That was all I meant.

-NOPkins-

[honeypot]

Dave,
Call me fused but I don't see what the point is in 'testing' your EC with her, as the weeks of no sex slip by.

Why would you do this? What do you hope to achieve or discover by testing this out?

In other words, my EC is definitely tied to the amount of sex that we have. Are you saying this makes me fused? I can't see how it does, since the whole point of the good doctor's book is to resurrect the passion between married couples.

My husband's (and your wife's) EC is dependent on a whole other set of variables and I can finally say, with a good deal of honesty, that I am doing my part in keeping the EC alive in a way that appeals to him.

I can tell you that I have a very hard time keeping my own EC alive and well if more than a week goes by with no sex. Why shouldn't I? This is my primary way of feeling connected to him? Why would I expect any other outcome?

It is fused to become angry, or bitter or start thinking irrational thoughts like "he doesn't love me and I don't love him"...all of which I have done/do... ...but I don't see why the fact that I lose the EC with him is something that I should work to eliminate.

Isn't this what keeps us on track with creating and sustaining a PM--following the EC and making sure that it is a priority in our lives?

Honey

[TheNewChris]

Let me preface this by writing that this is NOT a "dig" or a put-down of you, HP... I just wanted to speak my mind.

Now, as long as it "works" for Dave, does it matter? Is Schnarch ALWAYS right? I find that some of the advice that I've been reading about the Schnarchian PM ways definitely would NOT "work" with my W and I.

Dave is trying something new and seeing how it feels now, vs. 6 months ago when he was still a "timid newbie" with PM. I suppose the worst that can happen is his W falls back into her old ways, and he has to start over. But, if he DOESN'T try something new, he risks always thinking "what if." I say, good for you Dave... explore your options.

- Chris.

[NotATLDave]

Hey honey,

It is so hard to explain the subtle issues around this and my decision. It's just that right now, it feels like the right thing to do. I have very little to lose.

The way I act and treat her should be (almost) the same regardless of whether I have an EC or not. I was using the EC as a form of energy to fuel my good behavior (non-crabby, thoughtful, etc) towards her. I need to be able to maintain this good behavior as a point of integrity rather than have it fueled by the EC. This is my fusion issue.

The period of time in the past few months where we would ML and wait a few days as the EC drained, made me learn to see how my emotions worked. Do I want less than 2x a week now? Heck no! I want to ML when I'm feeling attracted to her, and feeling connected already...not as tool when my EC is depleted. I WILL initiate just as frequently and probably more frequently now. Under the previous plan, I was hesitant to initiate 2 days after out of fear that she would look at the date and say, "but it's only been 2 days". You see, I may have let her off the hook for the 2x a week but I also opened it up for me to initiate arbitrarily.

Secondly, by verbally acknowledging the "end" of the "process", she has to deal witht her motivation not coming from me anymore. She knows this isn't a game, she knows what I want, she knows how I feel. This effort has nothing to do with letting her off the hook as much as it does me committing myself to be loving and supportive regardless of her behavior.

Don't start playing violin music yet...there is a very dark side to this change in effort. If she is claiming that my schedule, analysis, and score keeping is a problem for her, but doesn't show effort to keep improving under her own willpower, then I will hold a big fat mirror to her and make it clear that I'm not happy.

Again, I need to see another side of the EC thing. I was starting to feel like I didn't *want* an EC with her at all. This is not what I want...I want to "want".

Last Thursday's LM session was exactly the way it should go. Last night, she told me that she loved that session and the way it flowed naturally. I made it clear that *thats* what I want too. I'm trying to create an environment where it will happen more frequently.

If my W thought it was a good idea to ML 2x a week on a schedule, then this would be an entirely different story but she's proving to me that she wants to ML without a sense of obligation. Is she manipulating me to lower the frequency? I think it's highly unlikely.

I've been a very selfish person my entire life (3rd child etc)...and this process had a "selfish" feel to it. This is another integrity item for me.

On a side note, W, D6 and I went back to the trails and rode together while my D6 showed my W her skills. We had the best day today and W was a great sport. When we were done, I said "thanks for being such a great sport...I had a blast with you". I didn't say anything like "now isn't this fun?...you should like doing this". The parallels of this to our sex life are amazing. I'll get into it more later.

BTW. Last night, during the convo, I told my W that I want to ML one more time before her P starts. She just told me that it just started today and she said that she was sad that it started before we could get together. I asked her if we could do some "other" things. I might use this opportunity to ask her to experiment with the techniques in Paget's book.

[Corri]

Dave:

Believe it or not, I know exactly how you are feeling, and all I can say is... keep going, man!! I had put a 2x per week schedule on myself with my H... and I found that as time wore on, I got really resentful of that 'schedule.' I could never get past the feeling (even though I was the one who instituted it) that I was meeting a quota... and that really took the wind right out of my sails.

Then I started resenting the H again because I thought he wasn't doing any of the 'work.'

And then I realized, finally, that all this has nothing to do with my H, but my own personal integrity and what I want to do to honor myself, and honor my H in a loving, caring, honest way.

I could give a fig less how many times we make love in a week anymore. I DON'T CARE. What I do care about is what I feel when I do ML, and what I give (in terms of EC) when I ML. If he initiates I always have a choice in how I respond... and I can tell you, it's one heck of a lot better when I respond out of love than when I'm trying to meet a quota.

Sounds like you've come full circle, Dave. But the enormous difference here is you understand fully why you are where you are, and what your choices and options are... how you'd prefer it to be, and how you can subtly change the tone of an entire evening just be communicating openly and honestly, and letting your wife be who she is. With integrity.

That story of your daughter was just absolutely amazing. I hope you print that off, keep it for the rest of your life, and pull it out if you ever need to 'remind' yourself of the cool, introsprective guy that you are.

Hugs to you, man. I don't think you yet realize what an enormous 'break through' you've made... it's huge. I'd buy you a Corona with a lime if I could.

Corri

[honeypot]

Dave,
I read ya loud and clear on the fusion issue.

I did not realize this was the area in which you were fused with her, thus my probe.

The plan sounds good to me. I hope it works out well.

My H and I seem to have the exact opposite problem; the EC is not really the problem so much as him opening himself up to the possibility of ML on any given day. Your wife seems to be a lot more flexible in that way than he is.

So for me, a schedule is the way to go. Well, not a schedule per se, but more a "we will strive to ML twice a week without fail" goal.
It is this without fail part that is essential to the whole plan. Without it, he cannot make it happen and I begin to lose faith in whether we can make it.

However, I am sounding totally morose when we've had a good weekend! So I will sign off with best wishes to you tonight in getting some use out of the Paget book.

Cheers,
Honey

[NotATLDave]

Thanks Corri,

I'm glad you seem to understand where I am with this...and mmm, Corona, lime, chips and salsa.

I decided not to ask for Paget lessons or even bring up the sex topic...just enjoy her company. Just like an LD person might "sensate" focus on subtle physical sensations, I tried to do the same with my emotional sensations. In the past 6 months, I've been scanning the horizon for signs of progress while simply looking at the ground in front of me would show it. It's not the fact that I have a wife who is willing to have sex with me 2x a week that indicates progress, but the little things. For example, a long time ago, she told me that she is extremely "non affectionate" feeling when it's her P and doesn't like to be close to me. Tonight, she cuddled up next to me on the sofa and stroked my leg in an almost sexual way while we watched our show. As pathetic as it sounds (as an indicator of progress), it's different than the "little" things I was seeing a few months ago...this time had a natural feel to it. It still may be a coerced response, but this time, I know that it's not me doing the coercion. She's truly *thinking* now and working through it on her own (so it feels).

Now when she got up to go to bed, I felt a familiar wave of anxiety strike. Was she going to invite me up? Or not? But this time I centered myself and reminded myself that this response is the one thing I want to eliminate and not feel each night. The real test will be in 2 weeks.

Also, I know that I can boost the EC with quality time. Today, we rode bikes and hung out all day. It was a great day. Much different than the weekend I went camping and I got home feeling extremely disconnected.

In the past, I would go on all-day bike rides and would always wonder why I couldn't get any married bike buddies to go with me for more than a couple hours. I would assume that their W's became psycho-needy and bust their chops for spending time away. Something I never considered until now is that they might "want" to spend time with their Ws...maybe they are taking responsibility for their own ECs. Maybe I need to take responsibility for my own EC...initiate sex but also initiated quality time. If she really doesn't need me around for her EC but I do...then why is it her job to do the work? She's always fairly willing, so why should I care that she doesn't initiate sex or other activities? As long as I "want" the EC, and know how to get it, and have the balls to express myself, then their shouldn't be any problem. It's the "wanting" that I'm worried about. Fun days like today make me "want". We have a few things to work on still.

Thanks folks. I'm just rambling with nervousness.


-Dave

ps. 2 nights ago, I dreamed (a real REM one) that I flew up north and visited Tim at his home. I then left and was riding my bike down his street and came up behind another cyclist...it was Corri. I was trying to figure out what she was doing in Canada on Tim's street. We went to eat and could only find a Burger King whose selection and currency was different than the U.S. I then flew home and due to some weird time-zone issue, it was like I wasn't gone at all. Very bizzare dream. Maybe I've been spending too much time on this board.