I encountered that defensiveness during the course of my M as well. I can honestly tell you that it took months to see any change on this front. And quite frankly, Sage (again) has this pegged--you are going to have to be VERY patient, girl.
It took about 6 months AFTER I STOPPED CONTINUALLY DEFENDING MYSELF to finally see the results. Have you read Mars/Venus? Great plug for it here, because I think you might gain some understanding on how this works.
Yes, he's projecting anger on to you. But you seem to be doing the exact same thing. One of you is going to have to completely CEASE this modus operandi in order for this cycle to stop repeating itself. And it won't be easy or quick either.
Instead of defending your POV or your actions, why not try validating instead? For instance,
Quote: "I'm not treating you better b/c of how angry I am at you for the things that you have done?"
You might consider commenting, "Wow, I didn't realize you felt this way. I'm sorry you feel hurt by the things I've done." Once you can do this for a length of time without defending yourself, I'll advocate asking him to share the reasons with you.
Then you validate those reasons and shut up. It is not the time to bring your laundry list of his transgressions to the table... and he is definitely not looking to hear all the reasons why you are doing the things that you do that appear to hurt him.
Karen, you were doing just great with this when you were expecting less of him and yourself. I hope you can pick up this ball again, because it clearly worked to get you to a better and happier place.
What were you doing then that you are not doing now? Write them down, and start doing them again!!!
Have a great weekend!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: So, how was i supposed to "look" committed to the M?
I worded that wrong. I should have said "How was I supposed to look like I CARED about the M?" He said that I seemed so indifferent to the sit.
Gray talks about defending yourself in Mars/Venus? I don't think I read the book from cover to cover. H is such an atypical male that a lot of male "stereotypes" don't fit him. (Like the ones in MWD's books-he does LOTS of housework, he spends time with me, he's not a workaholic, he doesn't like sports, he cares more about the R than sex, he's not controlling, etc.) DANG, he sounds pretty good, doesn't he??
Quote: Yes, he's projecting anger on to you. But you seem to be doing the exact same thing. One of you is going to have to completely CEASE this modus operandi in order for this cycle to stop repeating itself. And it won't be easy or quick either.
Good stuff! You're right!
Quote: Karen, you were doing just great with this when you were expecting less of him and yourself. I hope you can pick up this ball again, because it clearly worked to get you to a better and happier place.
What were you doing then that you are not doing now? Write them down, and start doing them again!!!
Well I was hanging out with friends and family all the time. So, how do incorporate spending time with him and everyone else. However, I'm usually the one pursuing friends, and that gets old. I also did whatever I felt like doing. He doesn't "keep" me from doing things, but as you know, I like to do a lot more diff. things than H.
I am trying to figure out the balance in here somewhere. When I was by myself, I didn't worry about how H felt about me. I wanted to be w/him, but I believed in myself and believed that I am attractive, worthy, and lovable. When I am around him, I get hung up on how HE feels about ME. Therefore, I feel bad about myself, b/c he thinks our M prob's are all my fault and that I have caused this (OK, so I did), and that he's not sure if I am worth keeping around or not. So, I beat myself up. I was forgiving myself and him while S. I was taking care of ME for ME.
Quote: When I was by myself, I didn't worry about how H felt about me. I wanted to be w/him, but I believed in myself and believed that I am attractive, worthy, and lovable. When I am around him, I get hung up on how HE feels about ME. Therefore, I feel bad about myself, b/c he thinks our M prob's are all my fault and that I have caused this (OK, so I did), and that he's not sure if I am worth keeping around or not. So, I beat myself up. I was forgiving myself and him while S. I was taking care of ME for ME.
So...I think Michele would ask "what was different about the time when you were feeling good?" It seems like you're attributing it to not being around h ... but are there other possibilities? were you getting more exercise? eating better? was it making you feel good to be around friends and family who also care about you? was it about doing something physically challenging? You can see where I'm going with this..
sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Anywhere, at the restaurant after biking. If I went to my sis's I went straight to the box of wine. At home and at work, I drank straight from the bottle. I'm cracking myself up! No, at home, I'd have a glass of wine. Any din. w/friends I'd have a 'rita or two. At the river I'd have a few beers or malt beverages. Last Friday, however, I was overserved and got SICK SICK SICK and have backed off since then. I also took a few hits off friends' cigarettes.
Nope, I wasn't eating better. In fact, when I take ADD med., I hardly eat at all. oh, I've been out of those...
Exercise was somewhat the same. Here and there a couple/few times a week.
I was around my sis & BIL and their kids. Last week they were on vaca. I was around a lot of friends. The past couple weeks one has been traveling all the time. Another friend got in a funk and blew me off for a few weeks. Another friend has too many bf's to hang out with me. Another had a hysterectomy a couple months ago. Another got married and isn't allowed to go anywhere anymore. I keep recycling friends!
Honestly, I was doing things that I really wanted to do. If it were up to me, I'd be going camping, going up to the lake, kayaking, climbing, etc. ALL the time. Obviously, this requires money, so...doing as much as I can. Hubby is somewhat more inactive than I am. He's too long to fit in a kayak, all he wants to do is BIKE, which I like, but I like to do tons more stuff. It's nothing to me to hop in the car & drive a few hours for some adventure. H's butt gets too itchy.
Addendum: H will drive to see a band or race. And the repeated line from his mouth is "If things were better, I'd put more effort into this R." Meaning go more places, do more things, have more fun with me.
Alright, I gotta get there...Stay the course...Keep swimming.
And the repeated line from his mouth is "If things were better, I'd put more effort into this R." Meaning go more places, do more things, have more fun with me.
Right-O...not so different (but of course unique in its own way!) from many, many sitchs here...the spouses that are waiting to see OUR changes (consistently executed) before buying into their own...LUCKILY, we have DB'ing to keep us on top of our game!
Remind me again...what does BETTER mean to h?
What three things can you do in the next week to make things BETTER?
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Well, his key phrases are "emotional stability, peace and healthy relationship." He wants to get along and not have the emo roller coaster ride. I can have emotions, just need to deal w/them constructively, not destructively. Not sabotage the r. Trust him, GET ALONG. That's his LL!!!
1. Do something for myself when I have a freak out (what to call it? It's not an anxiety attack per se, but it is anxiety, and mind altering state). ie exercise, write, retreat, etc.
2. Eliminate assumptions and expectations.
3. Appreciate him for who he is. And SHOW it rather than just say it by getting along and being Bob Barkerish.
thanks for being here today ladies. you have really helped me! karen
I don't have much to add since my DSL is down and I'm on dial up. Oh, more to the point? Sage is taking this where I think you need to go.
No, Gray doesn't exactly discuss defending ourselves in Mars/Venus. What he DOES address is how we need to be validated. Men need validation as much as we do, but it takes on a different "language".
Through my own experience as a Class A Defender, I know that I personalized every single critical convo as a personal attack. When I launched my own defense, I'd go on counter attack and Mr. Wonderful would shut completely down. And we'd continue this miserable cycle.
Let's move along to Sage's thought, because it appears to have merit--she said:
Quote: So...I think Michele would ask "what was different about the time when you were feeling good?" It seems like you're attributing it to not being around h ... but are there other possibilities?
Let's say for the sake of argument that you ARE attributing this insecurity to not being around H. What mechanisms can you employ (thought stopping) that would prevent you from entering such a cheeseless tunnel?
I know you said in the past that visualizing a stop sign doesn't work for you. But it seems pretty clear to me that when you start down the path of thinking negatively, you start acting on those thoughts. And then your H pulls back from you.
What do you think?
Another thought... why is it that you feel you are the one to pursue friends? Are you setting yourself up for personalization here? There seem to be periods in my life where I want to be with my friends, but they have stuff going on, and can't make that commitment.
It doesn't mean that they don't want to be with me (again, not taking this as a personal rejection). I usually come up with something else I want or need to do: start painting my bedroom (uh, I have paint splats on it so I need to commit myself to finishing this project), sewing a cushion for my window seat, taking a walk, ANYTHING that doesn't involve other people.
Granted, I learned how to do this well when I moved to a part of the country where I didn't know a soul... but you don't have to go to that extreme to start doing things that you enjoy doing AND that don't require participation from others.
Part of finding yourself in a happy spot is going to require some creativity on your part to come up with the things that bring you joy, sweetie. That means you are doing them for yourself. It also requires a level of personal commitment to being friends with yourself first. Trust me, if you have children some day, you're going to need to learn how to do this so you don't go insane.
Gotta run! Have a good weekend!
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Betsey 
It seems like you're attributing it to not being around h ... but are there other possibilities? were you getting more exercise? eating better? was it making you feel good to be around friends and family who also care about you? was it about doing something physically challenging? You can see where I'm going with this..
