Karen's New Thread

[sage]

Karen --

this just sounds so mars and venus to me...

(Sweeping generalizations to follow) -- he thought you were in your cave so out of respect for that he didn't pursue you. You personalized it because that's not what YOU would do if a friend were off someplace working/studying but even when you try to explain that to him, he doesn't get it.

marsandvenusmarsandvenus

Remind me...have you read "The four agreements" by Ruiz?

Be impeccable with your word
Don't take anything personally
Don't make assumptions
Always do your best

I recommend the book.

Sage

[karen812]

Thanks Sage!
H is such an atypical male that it's hard to figure out when he is being a martian or not. But, when I DID give him the benefit of the doubt, I actually thought "He probably thinks I'm in my hole and doesn't want to disturb me," but then I go and change my mind to the worst conclusion-that he is being inconsiderate.

Had MUCH anxiety today. Correlation being: close to/loving hubby=anxiety. Cognitive distortions being: 1. This isn't going to last 2. He doesn't really/love care about me 3. If he does love/care about me now, he won't in the future 4. I'm gonna get old & yucky (even had a nightmare two nights ago about this 5. He's not a passionate/adventurous/fun/excitable/happy person and never will be. Uck...

Change to: 1. This will last, and if it doesn't, there are other men that would love to marry me 2. He really DOES love and care about me-look at all he has done and what we have gone through 3. He is a dedicated man and probably WILL love me forever like he plans on doing as in that's why he made the commitment 4. Real beauty comes from within, and I'll probably be a hot old lady anyway (when do I have to quit shopping in the juniors' section??) 5.
Ummm...he REALLY can be passionate and excitable (HELLO!), he isn't a leader as far as adventure goes, but he is willing to do stuff, he can be fun-we just need to get comfy with each other again, and he is v. funny and we have been v. playful w/each other, as far as happiness? I think that will come with time and who knows-maybe a career change in a few years.

I want to find a new IC. I was referred to one but can't get in until November.

I'm also getting headaches every day again. Not migraines, thank goodness, but they are there.

I went climbing tonight for the first time in months! Of course, I am rusty AGAIN and will have to build up muscles and endurance AGAIN, but at least I'm still better off than I was in February!

Oh, I started that book, but never finished. I have a friend who is reading it too, so we've talked about it and I think it would be helpful. I was just on a "mindless" book kick and read "Fishbowl"-v. funny, I recommend it, started "Sex and the City"-not v. good, didn't finish, "Stepford Wives"-good, and now "Lovely Bones" which is v. different.

ttys,
Karen

[slowly]

Hi Karen - Sage's point is well made, and you know you need to sit on these outburst, think them through, before acting them out. Remember the old adage - will what I am about to do draw him closer to me?

You have come such a long way, I'm confident with careful thought, goals and baby steps you WILL win H over all the way.

Courage, my friend. Slowly

[karen812]

Hi Slowly,
Thanks for the reminder. However, I still have this prob.-when I am having these "emotions," they seem so REAL, so JUSTIFIED to me. I feel that I MUST stand up for myself. OK, so I'm a little hyper-vigilant. Maybe I should commit to the 24 hour rule AND the question rule: Will what I am about to say/do bring him closer or not?

BTW, I bought a couple ebooks. One is v. good and more reinforcement of what Michele says, and the other was a rip-off. They totally lied about the contents of the book, said it was guaranteed money back. Then they told me to read the fine print which was not mentioned by the money back guarantee! It said that if the ebook was bought on sale, it was NOT refundable! And, it said that they won't let the bank/cc company do a ?what's it called? You know when you dispute and the cc co. goes to the company and gets the money back. Anyhow, if anyone is interested in which to buy or not, let me know!

Last night was fine. I climbed some walls then came home while H was having band practice. He is resuming his band! We visited after and I was v. cheerful/smiley, etc. I wanted to , but he said that I had hurt him and he he couldn't !!! OOOOPSIE! He wasn't as snuggly, but I think that that is b/c his back has really been hurting the last couple days and he is going to go back to chiro. soon.

Tonight I want to do something exercise oriented. He said he may go for early ride, so he may not want to go hike/bike w/me later...but I MUST even if he doesn't, no??? This is trouble spot-if he doesn't want to, but then I'll want to be with him anyway, and not do what I need to do for me. I could walk dogs in my neighborhood, but I don't count that as "real" exercise-only half hour, no hills and rocks and stuff.

karen

[karen812]

Hi All,
After work I went home and H was mowing part of the lawn. He came up to the house covered in sweat and kinda cranky. (The riding mower is broken, so we've been mowing with a push mower). He told me that he wasn't biking tomorrow w/the club b/c he has to mow the rest of the yard and he's getting truck parts in. I told him that I would mow the rest right then, and he went into the house. I finished mowing++(exercise). I was upset at first-one for him being snappish and two b/c that meant we wouldn't be together Thur, Fri, or Sat. But, I worked it out pushing that dam thing. I was thinking "oh, that's it...the honeymoon is over, now he thinks he can talk to me any way he wants. Now he is going back to spending all this time apart, yadda, yadda. I decided that I had to cheer up and/or act as if I was cheery, or I would get nowhere with him. So I did! +++ I offered to cook din., but he didn't want what we had so he suggested pizza. I said ok.

I asked if he wanted to go somewhere. He looked bummed out. I asked what was wrong and he said that his back was hurting him. (He shared his feewing! ++) I said staying in was fine, and he wanted to watch the "family guy" marathon, so we just hung out. Later he told me that he would bike (oh, he said TY for mowing too) Thursday since we would have no time together for the next few days and that his truck could wait!!! +++++

I left him a note on the bathroom mirror for him to find this morn. He liked it-he gave me an extra hug and kiss this morn when he said good-bye. (I'm so sweet and thoughtful and romantic+++)

I had some insight this morn on myself.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I get so wrapped up in him and his feelings and how he is treating me b/c of him and his feelings, etc., etc., etc.! (I know I need to read that CHAPTER-Do not take anything personally). But, then I asked myself how I would take care of myself and reminded myself that 1. I can go w/o ML for a while 2. It's not personal (as in give up feeling "hurt" or like I'm not getting my "needs" met.) 3. It's ok if we spend some time apart-remember, we just did it for 5 1/2 weeks!! 4. He loves me...5. I love me (well kinda) -ya know, essentially that I am ok and I'll be ok.

So, Pam, the positives are inter-mixed in there!
ttys,
karen

[karen812]

I have a massive headache. Had a long night. Some good some bad. Went bike riding w/my new male friend TZ, my gf S, and H. I had met this guy M when I went to Lake Erie in July and TZ referred to him as "your buddy M" and H didn't know what he was talking about b/c I never told him the details of my trip. I told H it was silly nothing to worry about. Later at home I asked H if he thought I would cheat on him and he said "what am I supposed to think?" I said this guy got 3 flat tires on the way to the island and called ME slow. I told TZ that he talks too much. I just thought it was rude of M, so now when TZ brings him up, he refers to him as "my buddy." And H asked, "what about TZ?" I said that he was nice and just a friend.

And H brought up the fact again that he thought I was so "casually indifferent" to being separated. I said that day at the lake I fought off tears all day b/c I wanted him to be there with me. I said, "do you really NOT know how much I love and care about you?" He said "I guess not," and that he just wondered why if I cared that I would sabotage our R. I told him I know it was bass-ackwards and that I know what I did was wrong, but it was BECAUSE I cared so much. For example, I wouldn't get jealous if I didn't care. I told him he didn't know me very well if he thought I would actually cheat and that I would have the balls to say something first and start legal proceedings before being with someone else. I also told him that although being sep. was one of the most difficult things for me, it was really good for me too.

I told him that when he went camping w/o me it was REALLY REALLY REALLY hard and that one gf said that maybe I just needed to feel the PAIN before changing. H said he missed me the most when he was on that trip.

I still feel like he blames me for everything. I said he can be difficult too, but he said "that's just everyday stuff, I don't try to SABOTAGE the R." I said, "but it's still destructive. Why would I want to be with a crabby husband?" (I think that was kind of a dig) He has not shown any remorse about lying other than saying a month ago that he was angry and went about things the wrong way. So, I felt like bringing up the lying, but figured that wouldn't get us anywhere. But I am curious... Let it go??? What to do??? I realize that I have made mistakes, but why can't he admit to having issues too??? We ended up ML and were up late. I told him that I thought we could get past this and he said he hopes so. But when??? Will that happen? Are we BOTH holding on to anger? Last week he was so happy to be with me, now I feel like it's back to the "I'm a bad wife" thing.

I wonder if he thinks I'm such a bad person, why is he still with me? Is this typical WAS behavior? yes...Is this something I just have to deal with? Continue to feel like I need to "prove" myself? And that it will take time for both of us to trust one another?

I asked him when he could get off work for vaca via email, and I haven't heard back. I thought he was going to check the calendar yesterday, but he didn't say anything. I know he was reluctant to make plans, but then he said that that shouldn't stop us.

Can you piecers help me???
Karen

[Nevanna]

I get so wrapped up in him and his feelings and how he is treating me b/c of him and his feelings, etc., etc., etc.!

I had this problem. It's a nasty little trap. Realize that you are not responsible for how he feels...and sometimes it has nothing to do with your M or R. Not sure if this would work for you or not, but when my H is upset, I just honestly ask him if it's me or something else. If he says "something else" then I try not to push.

I said, "do you really NOT know how much I love and care about you?" He said "I guess not,"

So what are some ways to help your H feel loved? What is his LL?

I still feel like he blames me for everything.

Unless he's said that, that's an ASSumption. Try not to be so hard on yourself. (I have the exact same problem, tho, so don't feel too bad! )

I said he can be difficult too, but he said "that's just everyday stuff..."

Is your H cranky when he's tired? Hungry? Sick? Late at night? My point is, sometimes people act funny or distant or grumpy for reasons other than their M or their R. Know what I mean?

I wonder if he thinks I'm such a bad person, why is he still with me?

Sweetie, again, you're being too hard on yourself! The obvious answer is--you're not! (Okay, maybe I need to take some of my own advice here...) I know how you feel. And it's not productive. He's with you because he sees the good qualities in you--especially your positive changes! After all, that's why you're with him, right? You see all the good in him.

Is this typical WAS behavior?

I don't think so. Sounds to me like he just genuinely likes to be around you!

I said, "but it's still destructive. Why would I want to be with a crabby husband?" (I think that was kind of a dig)

Yeah, I was really bad at that, and it was bad for our M. What helped me was when I stopped to ask myself what my point was in saying something. Was it to make a point? To express my feelings? Or to, maybe just a little, get back at him so he would "know how I felt"? If that was the case, I tried to shut my trap!

told him that I thought we could get past this and he said he hopes so. But when???

It's not a quick thing to fix. It just takes time. Time and patience. Give yourself (and your H!) a break. A vacation does sound nice, but even if you don't get to do that, take some time just have to fun and enjoy each other's company. It will do you both a world of good!

[sage]

Hi Karen,

I guess I have a couple of comments...first off, patience, patience, patience, right? We know these things take TIME and you've seen great progress (and growth) just recently! babysteps!

Secondly...why are you setting up camp in the cheeseless tunnel of wanting h to acknowledge his "contribution"? He'll get there when he gets there and (IMHO) the more you push, the more resistant he'll be. YOU are taking responsibility for YOUR stuff...that's the important part! Don't dilute the impact of that by standing around going "hello, hello! what about your crap, too?"

And finally...your h made an interesting comment about your carefree attitude during the separation making him wonder about your commitment to the M. I think his message is important to hear...he does need to hear/know from you that you are invested in the M, Karen, and it needs to continue to be in an open, non-clinging, non-self-centered way (as you have been doing SO WELL!) but don't confuse DISTANCE (not-so-good) with DETACHMENT (good).

Keep it up, Karen.

Sage

[karen812]

Nevanna,
But what about when he says things like, "I'm not treating you better b/c of how angry I am at you for the things that you have done?" HE is making me responsible for his feelings whereas I think he has a choice. How is that NOT blaming ME???

I don't think I'm being hard on myself-I think that I deserve to be loved! Maybe I'm being hard on him-by thinking he has such a neg. attitude towards me, so why is he here?? I've thought about finding someone else who may be more supportive of me & my emotional struggles. ???

It's not a quick thing to fix. It just takes time. Time and patience. Give yourself (and your H!) a break.

I guess when he decided to get back with me that I thought things were going to be ok. DUH...I mean it seemed like he realized some things and he said he WANTED to get over the anger and open up again. So, I thought since he did last week, that he would continue, but it seems like it is going to be a fluctuating thing.

The best I can figure his LL is Quality Time. I feel like when I compliment him he rebuts it or acts like he doesn't believe me. I tell him he's hot, he says "your crazy." I tell him thanks for stuff and he acts like it's no big deal. Last night I told him how turned on I was by him since we've gotten back together. He asked why it took so long or something like that & I totally felt deflated-like, OMG, I want him ALL the time, and me being turned on and having O's is NOT a problem. I said my responds more when things are better , but it still was never an issue that I didn't respond at all!

I feel like I can't win. I tell him I care, he doesn't believe me. He must not be feeling v. good about himself...

Sage,

Secondly...why are you setting up camp in the cheeseless tunnel of wanting h to acknowledge his "contribution"? He'll get there when he gets there and (IMHO) the more you push, the more resistant he'll be. YOU are taking responsibility for YOUR stuff...that's the important part! Don't dilute the impact of that by standing around going "hello, hello! what about your crap, too?"

I don't know! Why should I be the one to take on ALL of the responsibility for this mess??? You're right, he will prob. get there someday.

And finally...your h made an interesting comment about your carefree attitude during the separation making him wonder about your commitment to the M. I think his message is important to hear...he does need to hear/know from you that you are invested in the M, Karen, and it needs to continue to be in an open, non-clinging, non-self-centered way (as you have been doing SO WELL!) but don't confuse DISTANCE (not-so-good) with DETACHMENT (good).

Well, I thought the goal was to appear (and be) independent in order to be more "attractive" to H. I took care of some things in my life that I needed to. I tried to talk to him sometimes, but he told me he needed space. So, how was i supposed to "look" committed to the M? I thought taking care of me was helping to take care of the M. I tell him I care, but he doesn't believe me. I felt that I needed to detach to an extent to get a clearer perspective. And, tbh, I was enjoying the freedom of not being so consumed with our sit. and OK, so I may have enjoyed meeting new ppl including men and hearing that a couple were interested in me, but I still don't think I was any less committed to the M. I was faithful, I was honest with the interested men saying that I wanted my M to work. I did not flirt...just had thoughts of having a "back up plan." Which helped me to not be so "attached" to H.

I love him, but having these feelings (about HIM not owning up to his mistakes in the M) makes me wonder...I don't know if it is just my defense mechanism wanting to push him away to protect myself or ???

Thanks. This is really helping.
Karen

[sage]

Well, I thought the goal was to appear (and be) independent in order to be more "attractive" to H. I took care of some things in my life that I needed to. I tried to talk to him sometimes, but he told me he needed space. So, how was i supposed to "look" committed to the M? I thought taking care of me was helping to take care of the M. I tell him I care, but he doesn't believe me. I felt that I needed to detach to an extent to get a clearer perspective. And, tbh, I was enjoying the freedom of not being so consumed with our sit. and OK, so I may have enjoyed meeting new ppl including men and hearing that a couple were interested in me, but I still don't think I was any less committed to the M. I was faithful, I was honest with the interested men saying that I wanted my M to work. I did not flirt...just had thoughts of having a "back up plan." Which helped me to not be so "attached" to H.

I may have miscommunicated...I think his message is important to "hear" but that doesn't mean I totally understand his message

It's VERY clear that you did a great job of being non-clingy during the "S" -- I'm wondering what he means about feeling as though you weren't committed....my best suggestion is to figure out a good time (and way) to ask him (non-defensively, non-clingy, etc) what he might have meant...it would be good (IMHO) to get some specifics from him...

I love him, but having these feelings (about HIM not owning up to his mistakes in the M) makes me wonder...I don't know if it is just my defense mechanism wanting to push him away to protect myself or ???

WELL...my two cents is to stay the course...keep working on YOU...keep focusing on things that are improving the M...and try to control or minimize the tendancy to focus on things that are out of your control -- specifically, h's owning up to his contribution, etc.

Sage