I have a little trouble with this needs versus want stuff. If I understand PM it is OK to have wants, but needs are a bad thing if we expect someone else to fill those needs. So "needing" desire from our spouse is a bad thing, I think. But then I read the book and I also see people on here post several times that we must make it clear to our spouses what our "wants" are, especially with regard to desire. But then the message also is that if they choose to not meet our want for desire, then they risk losing their marriage. So I am confused, if our LD spouses don't meet our "want" for them to desire us, and then we chose to leave because of this, is this not really a "need". "Needs" are bad but "Wants" are good. But if you are willing to terminate a marriage because a "want" is not being met, is that not really a "Need". Man, this is a confusing one to me.
Indeed, things get complicated in PM and its suggestions. I am reading through Chapter 1, and I find that if I'm distracted in the least whilest reading, I have to reread it. I sure hope I can do this (read PM) and not throw it through a window.
I'll be watching for the "PM Gurus" and their responses...
I definitely is a tough read. I get all confused when talking about needs versus wants. I think that needs are bad and wants are OK, but where the line is I am not sure.
Don't feel bad Chris. I think most of us found PM to be a very "thick" read. In fact, the thought I am having right now is that perhaps those of us who are trying to apply PM principles have simplified it's ideas a bit too much. If it was so difficult to read, why should it be easy to apply?
I took a lot of courses in Physics in college. If you asked me to explain the The General Theory of Relativity, I would say "Sure" and give it my best shot but I would have a hard time doing it without falling back on the standard examples and analogies used in most textbooks. I would have to talk about trains traveling at different speeds and people turning on flashlights. I don't understand the concept well enough to have internalized it and explain it from my own point of view. I think that is how most of the PM followers on the board feel about their level of understanding of PM concepts. We can't explain PM concepts nearly as well as Schnarch for the same reason we can't explain Relativity concepts nearly as well as Einstein.
That is why we keep telling others to just read the book and join in the discussion.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
CeMar, I am a "needy" person and definitely need desire as you do but I now see that you can't make someone desire you by force of persuasion. You have to create an environment where eventually she will desire you because the new life you have created for her is in itself desirable. For example, say you can blow through your gridlock and come out the other side with a relationship where you are ML twice/three times a week and have intimate conversations and both feel in love with each other. That, after many years of gridlock, is a very desirable position to be in and my guess is that your LDW and my LDW would desire to keep a life like that once they got used to it. The problem is breaking through the gridlock and that does not come easy and pain free. SD - the strongest force in the universe is the force of habit.
I haven't read PM, but it's on my short list. Still, I think it is a mistake to think that my NDW really needs sex, but just doesn't realize it. I'm trying to create a situation where she will want it more. Do I need sex? Well, apprently not, since I have survived my drought up to this point. Still, you don't NEED golf clubs ... unless you want to play golf. I do believe that sex would bring our relationship to new heights that cannot be reached without it. I like to read in the safe harbor of the SSM board, but occasionally I look at the DB postings, and it's like the aftermath of a battle. The wounded report spouses who have just walked away and had affairs. The poster usually begins history at the time of the affair. I'm convinced that most spouses who walk away and have affairs at least perceive that a need is not being met. And I think, there but for the grace of God go I.
I am trying to understand the difference between my needs and my wants. Afterall, I am trying to avoid seeming like a needy person to her. So I gather from PM and these boards that needs are not a good thing. Wants are OK. So I want my wife to desire me. Thats great! But PM and several postings say that I make this clear to her, and if things don't eventually change, then I must leave her. This makes it sound like I have a NEED rather then a WANT. I want her to realize that I "Want" her desire rather then "Need" her desire, but if she can not produce the desire and then I leave, then don't I need her desire, and is this not a bad way to be? It just seems that no matter how I can present myself to her, it must look like I "Need" her desire. It's almost like I have to stop "wanting" to be desired.
Quote: I do believe that sex would bring our relationship to new heights that cannot be reached without it.
Tell this to your wife. Also tell her that you will never be completely happy in your relationship if she doesn't try to work with you towards improvement. Let her think about your honest statements. Hold on to yourself and stay calm if she reacts to these statements in a negative way.
Quote: I'm convinced that most spouses who walk away and have affairs at least perceive that a need is not being met. And I think, there but for the grace of God go I.
This is how nearly everyone on this board felt before they started doing the work necessary to see real change in their relationships. Read SSM and PM. Listen to the advice given on this board. You will quite possibly find success and even if you don't you won't regret trying because it will be a great opportunity for personal growth.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Cemar: Here is my take on things. It is a subtle distinction, but an important one. To "need" something implies that you will not be able to function without it. We all know that isn't true--you function quite normally, albeit with little happiness. Which brings me to my next point: I do not use the strict interpretation of the PM book to mean that your choices are: stay or leave. You can STILL apply these principles and have no intention of leaving. It is just that your leverage will have to be something other than leaving her. With me, it was a couple things: Get separate beds, or separate bedrooms. Yes this would have been an incredible expense (on our already tight budget) but it was something I was willing to pay for, however I did it. I was dead serious by that time.
Also, I don't know how effective this will be with your W (only you can know that) but a very powerful leverage tool that I had with my H was the elimination of my love for him, through his own lack of attention.
So you could stop worrying about need vs. want and present it this way instead: "Wife, in order for me to continue to be in love with you I need you to think about including affection and frequent sex in our lives." So what if you say need instead of want, it is the MESSAGE you are trying to convey, not necessarily the precise verbiage. What she should hear coming out of your mouth is not a bunch of pussyfooting and beating around the bush about building a great marriage, but clear language about what the consequences will be if she decides not to fully participate in your M. In addition to that, all of this should be conveyed in a loving but firm manner. This is a hard line to walk because by the time you have the nuts to even say it all out loud, there will be this defiance thing going on...and it becomes hard to HOY and say it in a way that will speak to her.
Finally, you have to be prepared to say all this and keep on saying it. This is not a one time speech; it is a speech you will have to make often until she realizes that the stakes truly ARE as high as what you said. I think that we HD people have put ourselves in a position of losing our credibility...by the time we finally state, It's gotta be like this or else I will begin to stop loving you...they just hear 'blah blah sex blah blah sex'. We have accepted things as is for so long that the LD partner does not perceive the immediate threat. So you have to keep at it until they realize that things have changed from what they once were.
CeMar, I hear everything you say about DESIRE and feel the same but... I am a needy person like you and that need has grown out of the long dark night of our marriages. We must wake up for our own sanity as much as anything else. Guess what? The biggest problem is that gnawing neeeeeed eating away at your soul causing you to feel unloved, desperate, frustrated and angry. The needy behaviour infiltrates everything we do. The eager to please cups of tea and coffee. Watching her TV programmes instead of the football. Being sickly nice to her at every opportunity. Trying to get a kiss then being left feeling empty by the "air kiss" you get. Watching other couples and feeling jealous. Looking at every other woman in the street and wondering... You know what I mean. What I think we both have to do is cut down on the low-value needy stuff. It is tough and requires will power like going on a diet. My arms are dying and desperate to reach out to her for a cuddle but I hold onto myself with everything I've got because I know that worthless hug will most likely get brushed off. Hold back and make whatever contact you do have high-value. Then start to declare to her what you want out of life and do this frequently and consistently without entering into long negotiations or arguments. State your position and then go silent to let her absorb and come to terms with it. I am trying to talk to her every night in bed. Last night I was drunk and it turned into and argument because I could not HOM but tonight I will talk to her again about it but you can only do this from a position of STRENGTH. To get the strength you must hold back from the needy behaviour. Just think about it. The only difference between a long sleepless night and a contented afterglow is the word "Yes" instead of "No". We need to make it easy for our Ws to say "Yes". Mine said "Yes please" last Thursday and as you can see, I'm still enjoying the memory. Stick at it Cemar because it stands a better chance of success than more of the needy same. SD
