oh... I just wanted to add, that I never get into the "why's" of anything anymore ( I never ask him, for instance, why he is not being enthusiastic). I leave that work up to him on his own as he addresses the behavior. J
Not to hijack this thread or anything... 'cause I don't mean to... and I hope that this doesn't (my apologies to SuperDave if it does)... but... here goes. This related to Schnarch anyways.
For those whom have read PM... is there anything in the book that says "before you apply any of the things in this book, resolve how your spouse feels about your affair and proceed accordingly" ??
As I read most of these threads in the SSM section, I always ask myself similar questions, such as this: if the HD spouse had an A in the past, and now in the present HD spouse wants LD spouse to "wake up and give him some lovin'" and the LD spouse will never forget that HD spouse had an A, what hope is there to ever resolve things?
Yes, I'm asking this because I had an A. I never confirmed the PA to my W, just an EA. Now, I'm trying things from SSM and I want to read PM, but I'm wondering if I'm just wasting my time if my LDW's feelings about the A were never resolved. Huh.
Sorry for the tangent... now back to SuperDave's thread, already in progress...
I don't think you can resolve those feelings for her, do you?
And if you can't, then why not proceed with creating a better marriage?
Are there things that you do to cause her to hold on to the hurt that she feels over the A? If so, knock it off. If not, then resolve it WITH HER as you move forward creating a better marriage.
I know it sounds trite but that is my answer.
Here is another way to look at it: Tim47 has a wife who was convinced that menopause was the reason that they could not work on their M. Turns out it was a non-issue.
NOT that an A is a nonissue, I'd say it's a doozy personally, but rather that there IS no situation which is so bad that it prevents work on the relationship, or yourself for that matter.
For example, my H was not sure that he had made the right decision to marry (as opposed to becoming a priest). It was a little late for that revelation but he pulled away from me severely nonetheless. Now I could have just given up and taken my 2 kids and left him to pursue the religious life. But I didn't. I PM'd the hell out of him and faced with some SERIOUS decisions to make, it became crystal clear to him that he did not want the religious life. (it took me a while to really believe and internalize this, btw, but I have) While I was still there, accepting crap from him, it allowed him to continue to waffle and wonder and ponder, all the while being a turd of a husband.
Now, having said that, to what degree has she dealt with the affair? Is it a common topic of conversation in your house? To what degree have YOU dealt with the affair?
Cause I can tell you this: I was not blameless in the above situation. When H started growing closer (and closer) to his faith, I was awful about it. I insulted him, I tried to prevent him from going to church, I argued theology with him til the cows came home..anything I could to discredit his feelings. All the while thinking that I would push him BACK to me with this insane behavior. Ha. When I stopped playing my part I began to really see the damage and how much I had pushed him closer to his obssession. By backing off and allowing him to be himself, and yet all the while asserting what I wanted in the marriage if things were to continue as they were, we started to make some progress.
Best of luck to you. Oh and one more thing, I can't remember specifically but I think there was a couple in PM who were dealing with one partners' infidelity..? Keep reading and you may find it. Not sure though; Schnarch has a similar book called Resurrecting Sex and the two books mesh together in my head, as they are the same principles with different couples relating their stories.
From the Book of Corri 7:15....just kidding (I've been wanting to say that all day).
Where do I begin....
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It's not your business to figure out why your wife is unenthusiastic about LM with you?
Nope..because it's not my problem to solve. What purpose does it serve? It only relieves anxiety and a differentiated person is inspired to not to seek anxiety relief from the R, but rather from himself. BUT, I always try to make myself available if she wants the help. I always end these convos with "...and if there is anything you need from me to feel better, etc, please let me know...otherwise, I will keep on keepin' on".
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All you need from her is to "appear enthusiastic" (as opposed to actually having enthusiasm)? Now that you've told her this, won't you wonder if her enthusiasm is real or fake? Does it matter?
When I finally realized that her "love for me" is my perception, I stopped worrying about that...it only served the "other-validated" demon in me. For all I know, she hates me, but lately, she has convinced me that she really loves me though she might actually hate me or just like me or passionately love me...I will never know. I really don't care to know unless she decides to leave me. Once I understood that my "love for her" is based upon her personality, character, and behavior, I then realized that *I* needed her to be a certain way before I could love her...hence the 2x /week of enthusiastic sex. Worrying about whether they are faking or not is non-issue for me (now) because I (now) validate myself and don't need to know what she is feeling unless it's related to a sexual technique, but that's another story.
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You imply that you don't care if she is having a good time or even wants to be there. Is that correct? Is that a legitimate PM message? Can you really feel connected with just the "appearance" of enthusiasm and eroticism? What do you mean by connected?
Sure I want her to be enjoying herself and I make sure that I'm being a conscientious lover. I have to be careful when I speak like this to not sound like I'm treating her like an object...I'm not. I'm being very loving and kind with my behavior. The psychology of this gets really complicated, hence PM's 400+ pages but I'll try to explain this....When I ask her to "be enthusiastic 2x / week" and she agrees, she will be sitting thinking "I crap, what have I just agreed to? How am I going to do that? Why shouldn't I be able to do that? I can do that!!". Granted, this thought process might take months but this is what they call a "crucible". You put a series of your needs and desires in front of your spouse. Then they are faced with 2 undesirable choices..."do it", or lose the love of their partner (or D etc). Their commitment to an undesirable option forces them to confront "why is this undesirable and how can I make it desirable?..after all, it's not unreasonable and my partner is a good person and deserves to be happy etc." This is the essence of constructing a crucible for your spouse. It's been easy in my sitch because my W has a hard time saying "no". I'll recap this at a further date. It's interesting stuff.
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I'm just trying to figure this PM thing out. I'm still slogging through the book, sporadically. I hope I'm misreading what you're saying. My wife has no interest in sex with me, and I'd love to know why. Foolish?
That's the hardest thing to "rid" yourself of because it comes from an emotional-siamese-twin fusion thing...to want to know the inner workings of your spouse. A lot of us here are "fixers" and we think that knowing the problem will give us power to fix it. When I stopped wanting to open her up and see her problems (which I wouldn't be able to fix anyways...it would just piss her off), and simply raised the bar on what I expected from her, I lost all my anxiety about our problems and life became easy. Now she has committed to meet my desires and it's up to her to figure out how to do it.
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...it wouldn't be enough unless I thought the show was real.
That's the whole point of demanding (at least) the "show". It's called "fake it till you make it". I promise that this works.
Gotta go. here she comes.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Perhaps I should have written: is there anything in the book that says "before you apply any of the things in this book, make sure that you know how your spouse feels about your affair and proceed accordingly." I did not mean that I can resolve anything for her. I meant that I should know how she feels now, 1+ years later after the A was found out. Is it still an issue in her mind, or is it water under the bridge?
Quote: Now, having said that, to what degree has she dealt with the affair? Is it a common topic of conversation in your house? To what degree have YOU dealt with the affair?
I don't know how W has dealt with my A. We don't talk about it at all, and we haven't since about 4 months ago when W asked if I'm still talking to OW. I get the feeling that W wants to sweep it under the rug and bury it until she needs to have ammunition to attack me with over marital issues.
My W has control issues. I don't want to be controlled because then I feel like rebelling against her. Push and pull... where no one "wins." I guess I should read PM and shut up now.
Chris, Your W has a deeper layer of anger/resentment due to the betrayal of the affair, which will further contribute to her low desire, however, the same principles still apply.
From reading your posts, your emphasis seems to be on your W...PM will help to refocus you on what you can do to improve the relationship by first making changes within yourself.
On my way to the bagel store this morning, I was pondering a lot of what was written here (this thread and others) about improving self and working on the R. Then I thought, "crap, how can anyone with young children have any chance of working on things when all hell could break loose at any moment because of them?" LOL Silly me, perhaps, but it's a real concern in my case. I have a D6 and a D2. The D2 is a handful when she gets pissy, and the D6 can be defiant and stubborn.
So, Schnarch or others... are there any decent books/articles on how children add to the mix of a SSM, a HD-LD R, and all of the fun stuff that goes into taking care of children while still trying to work out a marriage where outside influences could be HUGE??
NewChris, In my case young kids were a complete stopper. W was so focused on them I got nothing. I am only seeing some success now because they are S19, D16 and S11 and old enough not to need constant mothering. SD - feeling sorry for anyone under 45 in a SSM.
Quote "BTW I'm only 35..." Then you've potentially got ten more years of great sex than I've got.
I would not say that you're doomed because you have the advantage of the SSM and PM books, this forum and the excellent advice and encouragement you get. I spent 22 years from my wedding night onwards getting more and more gridlocked into my SSM but with no one I could talk to. Throughout the drought I never lost my HD but got nothing more than 3x per year mercy sex except when trying for a baby but even then there was not much fun in it. You have to stand up and be counted. My strategy now is to state what I need from my marriage and I have stated that it is 2x per week and I intend to keep pressing home the message until she hears it. I have had some success particularly with Micelle's "Just do it" but as the days go by from our last time (Thursday) my doubts start to creep in (with the little things she says) as to her commitment. She is a strong woman but if I want to stay with her and have a fulfilling love life then I must be stronger. All the best Chris - BTW you are a similar age to AtlDave as his handle used to be Dave36 SD - from self-soothing comes forth strength.
