Why Schnarch may not work for us

[NotATLDave]

I'm sorry you are feeling this way, but hold onto yourself again, I'm going to give you some tough love.....

In an ideal world we would all be married to someone who loves us exactly as we love them - we would have a "reflected sense of self". In reality we are all working towards the goal of a reflected sense of self.

I think you might be confused. One who gets his validation from what the partner does or tells him relies on a reflected sense of self. This is at the heart of being "other-validated" and completely contrary to the concepts of differentiation. You must strive to find your own sense of self without anyone and the ability to hold onto your sense of self in the presence of others. regardless of the strength of their personalities.

Secondly, it doesn't matter at all if their love is not equal to ours, nor do I think it matters. All that matters is how *you* love and what you need to feel connected to your W. If you feel that your love and connection is already strong, then why do you want to ML more? Is it to feel validated or to reduce anxiety? If so, then you are wanting sex for the wrong reasons. Once I did this, I discovered that I want much less sex than I thought and I was able to really feel the connection when we ML.

Also, "love" is not definable nor measurable. It's simply a feeling that you feel FOR someone AND something that you feel FROM someone and thus percieve it as "inbound love". Give someone a few beers at strip club, and they will feel "loved" too - by a woman who loathes them. Loving is real. Feeling loved is perception. In your case, your W's effort to ML is equivalent to someone else's beers at a stript club. (sorry for the strip club reference...I personally can't stand those places). Why do you need to feel loved? Explore this and you will enter your own crucible...because eliminating both "validation" and "soothing" will show you that you really don't need to feel loved to stand on your own emotional legs.

We want our partner to desire us as much as we desire them.

That statement just stinks of "fusion fantasy". Just like love, it absolutely doesn't need to be equal at all...all that matters is that her behavior instills the sense that you are desired and only you know what that is. You just have to tell her. Also, wanting to "be desired" is wrong because it comes from my naughty "other-validation gremlin". All that matters is that your partner bring themself to you in a way that makes you desire *them* and don't look for meaning in the way they do it. If you don't like how they do it, then tell them. My example was when I was losing my erection while my W was doing me. It wasn't because she didn't desire me...hell, she might have been, in her mind, desiring the hell out of me. I simply didn't like the way she appeared (unenthusiastic) to me and I had no business trying to figure out if her crappy LM was out of a lack of desire or general tiredness. Last night, I told her that she needs to appear enthusiastic and try to be more organic. Again, this is *me* disclosing to her what *I* need to feel connected. I need to ML about 2x a week with the appearence of enthusiasm and erotisicm to feel connected. 2x / week is meaningless unless the "enthusiasm" is there.

Note that some of what I'm saying in this post is a little different than what I've been preaching in terms of "wants". I finally figured out that you don't just say what you want...you also share what you feel like when you aren't getting what you want.

Eventually the message will get through.

Make sure you are giving the right message....

Wanting to feel "desired" is an "other-validated" / "reflected-sense of self" concept and should not be disclosed.
Wanting an "enthusiastic sex partner" is very differentiated and should be disclosed.

See the difference?

I have reduced my loving behaviour at great emotional cost to myself and have self-soothed through it. She is being "pestered" less which is what she wants.

Why reduce it? If you feel like giving her loving behavior, then do it. Self-soothing was never intended to be a way to assist you in manipulating your spouse.

I am making disclosures ("pressure") that I want us to develop a passionate marriage in which we participate equally but this works against her reflected sense of self and makes her feel uncomfortable so must be eliminated.

Those dreadful words again..."we" , "us" and "equal".....eeeeek! You will only make progress when you eliminate those from your vocabulary. What the hell is a "passionate marriage"? Even the term "marriage" has been dreadfully bastardized to symbolize some etherial third-person shared between two people. THERE IS NO ENTITY IN THE MIDDLE. There is just YOU and HER. You only share history, children and some possessions. Do you want to know what marriage really is besides the legal paper? It's just you, the way you feel about her, the way you percieve her commitment to you through certain behaviours. Instead of saying "I want a passionate marriage", how about saying "I feel commited to you based upon our history, children and shared stuff, but I don't feel passion towards you. I would really love to feel a sense of passion towards you and it will require you to do x,y,z...what do you need from me to do that?" Now *that* is what Schnarch meant by fearless disclosure of yourself.

As an LD with a very strong personality she is getting used to my disclosures and is gaining in strength to a point where she can cope with the pressure quite easily and dismiss my disclosures as immature and rediculous.

If these were truly "disclosures", then she wouldn't have anything to gain strength or resist. It sounds like you are making "requests". Secondly, if she is belittling you for *who you are*, then you will need to again, disclose by saying "I really loathe you when you belittle the way I think and feel...I'm telling you who I am. What are you thinking? Do you think you have better insight into my mind than me". How can she respond? She can't.

Recently, my W tried to shoot me down and it was so easy to counter...I just said "I'm not saying I want you to do anything...I'm just telling you what I want". I repeated it about 5 times until she heard me.

Eventually I will run out of ways to disclose the same old stuff and give up my quest for passion.

If your disclosures are like the ones above, you never need to find new ways. Just keep repeating them. If she dismisses them, then she knows the consequences...you will not love, desire, or feel passioinate towards her. If she belittles, you will loathe. You aren't threatening anything. You are simply telling her who you are...just like Schnarch tells us to.