Of the 5 hours of counseling I had before firing my C, there were 2 things that helped. 1. Read PM. 2. Don't take responsibility for, or read into the actions, behaviors, or moods of my W. I'm sure you guys have heard me talk enough about #1. But #2 has helped me tremendously and I want to point out how we all should try to avoid this trap that was created by pop-culture and the media.
Quote:
...he should at least afford you the respect of considering and possibly trying it
Sorry to use this quote to make a point about something but here goes....
In a gentle way, you just said "he doesn't respect you because he didn't do x". This is the type of self-defacing dialog a lot of us have. You guys have heard me say "she must not desire me because she is so unenthusiastic about ML"...why should I beat myself up like that...maybe she's just tired but "stretching" herself to meet my needs. Am I making sense yet?
His lack of desire to see the counselor probably has nothing to do with his "respect" for cn...maybe he just doesn't think his involvement will help. When we got married, the priest mandated that we commit to getting counseling if either one of us asks for it. In cn's case, he probably doesn't need to go. 90% of the people I've talked to, who want to go into counseling, are motivated by the idea that the counselor is the "big stick" to pummel their partner into x,y,z. A spouse may recognize this or just worry that this is the case even when it is not. cn, don't read into his refusal to go as a reflection on you.
I think cn needs to go a few sessions without him, and then tell him that she would like to have him attend to give his "perspective on her problems" so that the therapist will have a 2nd viewpoint of the patient. This was my tactic too and the C sessions turned into couples-counseling (but lame nonetheless).
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Well, I see the difference, but here's my take: 1. "I start feeling like you don't matter to me" Okay, this is how I feel, I've lost the feeling of closeness that accompanies ML with her. 2. "I start feeling like I don't matter to you" Okay, I also feel this way, because I don't feel loved by her, I don't feel she cares enough to show me love in the way I have clearly articulated to her I want to be shown.
I go into lengthy detail in my response to SuperDave on this very issue.... Why Schnarch may not work
Love from someone else is simply a "perception" manifested inside you. You will never know if someone loves you or not...period. My W might hate me but she is (now) showing behaviors that make me think otherwise. Heck, she might value the lifestyle so much that she's becoming a master thespian. We have no idea what is "real"...and that's fine. All that matters is how we feel about them.
By expressing "I don't feel xxxxx by you", you are giving "ownership" of your feelings to them which has many negative side effects for you. By saying "I don't feel xxxxx for you (and it's my problem)", you are showing yourself as a distinct individual who does not have any expectations of others. Then put on your leather jacket and get on your hog and ride off to the bar for a scotch...straight up.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Okay, Dave. I think I'm getting it. I went back and read your reply to SuperDave in the Schnarch post, too.
So here's another question for you on this same subject. As you may know, my W has been looking at houses, and I don't really want to move. When I begin articulating reasons why I don't want to move (e.g. my kids will be spending more time in cars; inconvenience in attending school-related events, practices, and lessons; unavailability to be there for them quickly if their crazy mom kicks them out of the house; etc) she minimizes these reasons and tells me that what it really comes down to is that I don't want to move because it is "inconvenient" for me. Well, while that is actually one reason I don't want to move, I actually think the kids-related reasons are valid and more important.
So, instead of telling her "you make me feel like crap when you are essentially calling me selfish for not wanting to move" I should be saying, "I don't like it when you minimize my reasons. They are valid, and when you dismiss them in such a cavalier way, I don't like you very much. Why would I want to go through another move with someone I don't like very much."
I certainly understand exactly why you are depressed. Though I cannot recall feeling similar myself, I did feel unexpressionable RAGE when my H did to me what your H is doing to you. And rather than acting upon the rage, I'd internalize it, which caused all kinds of lovely physical ailments.
By insisting that you have an O, in essence he is saying that your body belongs to him, and his wishes regarding your body are more important than your own. I'm not sure the type of abuse you suffered as a child, but if it was sexual, it's in essence the same thing. You had no choice in the matter, and your body and your wishes were completely dismissed. I'd venture to say that your depression is coming directly from feelings of powerlessness and feelings of guilt/sadness associated with not having control over your own body/orgasms.
The fact that you most recently did NOT experience depression after ML could be related to the fact that you willingly participated, gave your permission as it were. But if you are 'guilt-tripped' into sex and feel you need to respond in a certain way to your H because that's what he wants, it may be a different story. Maybe you should keep a diary of your encounters and see if a pattern emerges.
The fact that your H feels that this is something that isn't his problem is what I faced with my own H. The fact that I allowed him to make me feel like it was all my problem came from a lack of self-esteem, a lack of understanding and validating my own wants and needs, and my inability to draw and maintain boundaries with him.
This is a complex issue, and you are dealing with far more than infrequent sex. There are reasons you don't want to have sex, and if your H does not want to participate in the solution, that doesn't mean you have to stand passively by and not find your own.
My heart goes out to you, girl, but there IS a way through all of this.
So, instead of telling her "you make me feel like crap when you are essentially calling me selfish for not wanting to move" I should be saying, "I don't like it when you minimize my reasons. They are valid, and when you dismiss them in such a cavalier way, I don't like you very much. Why would I want to go through another move with someone I don't like very much."
Bingo!!! You hit the REAL issue right on the head.
Now, your other reasons for not moving are just as real. Your motivation to NOT move is strongly affected by the way you are feeling towards her. If you were blissfully loving her, you would move in a heartbeat. Not that you should use this information against her or to manipulate the sitch. But the real dynamics between you two can be addressed by using this situation. Leave sex completely out of the conversation and focus on the "real" issues. You are finally starting to see holes in her armor, and as you keep looking, you will start to form a different opinion of her...probably a negative one because she seems painfully insecure. It will give you the confidence to express yourself and talk from a position of strenght. *WE* know you have a better foundation than your W, you will need to see it too. I just think that her tactics are very tricky. You might D, but I'd use this time to learn as much about yourself as possible. Just my 2c. hairdog.
As far as the house is concerned...just keep telling her "it doesn't make sense" and stick to your guns. I guarantee she is going to say "then let's get a D". Then say, "if a house is that much more important than a family, then I really think a D is a good idea because I don't want to be married to someone with such shallow values and compulsive behaviors."
Again, just my 2c. I'm sure I'm about to get blasted by someone. I've been too preachy lately...I bet Corri is going to kick my ass or something.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
If you were blissfully loving her, you would move in a heartbeat.
Is this true HD? I am getting confused again... I thought that the idea was to take the emotional element out of decisions and focus on your needs/wants, and operate from there.
Quote: If you were blissfully loving her, you would move in a heartbeat.
And IHJ queried: Is this true HD? _________________
Speaking for my HD self, I'd say, "I blissfully love you and will do absolutely anything in the world for you except hurt my kids. There has to be some other way for us to resolve this to everyone's benefit. I'm open to whatever that is."
And the true HD in me would conclude with, "Now I want to F*** you!" (Before PM I would have said, "Want to...?" See how I've grown! )
HD's kids need their dad, next door if possible.
Mike - BTW, neither way of saying it would get me any sex
No, even if I blissfully loved her, I don't think it would be practical to move right now. Maybe it will be easier in a few years as they begin to graduate from high school, but right now, I think they need me close by.
A related thing that just popped up was my use of this statement: "When I don't feel that connection, I start feeling like I don't matter to you and consequently, why should I have to agree with you?" Well, why SHOULD I have to agree with her, even if I felt the connection? Part of my problem is that I sometimes feel I HAVE to agree with her, to keep the peace. Maybe I need to "give peace the boot".
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