I’ve done a lot of whining about wanting enthusiasm and involvement from my W in our sex life. (Apologies to all. ) This thread is an attempt to give definition to those terms. I appreciate your input.
Actions that would show enthusiasm and involvement to me would include: - initiating sex 40-50% of the time - vocal expressions of sexual desire/enjoyment (from “I’ve been thinking of being with you tonight” to specific likes and desires [the more graphic the better]) - trying new sexual positions - sexual touches and gropes (at home and elsewhere) - sex outside of the bedroom (outdoors, other rooms, vehicles, etc.) - mid-day quickies - wake up sex or middle of the night sex - being “done” - oral or manual activity when intercourse isn’t possible - flashing me or going without underwear
Is this unreasonable?
Clearly, the list does not address the issue of frequency. There are no "deal breakers" here. I chose basic (to me)activities for two people that love one another and desire to show it in a real way. From my POV, this is Married Sex 101:The Way to Intimacy.
Be assured that I could/would add feeling to the information were I talking to the W about them. In fact, I have talked to her about these things over the years, but usually in anger and/or frustration. (Small kids at home affect some of these, but given the green light, I would hire a babysitter on retainer and “date night” would come every third day.)
BTW, we had sex the other night at her initiation. It was really good because she tried some things outside of her comfort zone. So far, TSSM and PM is producing results.
Thanks for your help!
Mike - preparing the list for Married Sex 201:The Kinky Years
Mike: I came up with a list that is very similar to yours. I started to share it with my W, but it was during our argument last week, and I don't think she heard much past the "ML a minimum of once per week."
And my answer is, No, it is not too much to ask. And yes, this is just basic intimacy...nothing out of the ordinary here, nothing that would happen during the last 30 minutes of "9 1/2 Weeks."
The problem is, at least with my W, it seems as if it IS too much to ask.
First I want to clear something up...these actions you listed...are you asking her to do any and all of these or just some of these things? Speaking as a post-ld person...this list would have scared the hell out of me when I was LD. I would agree that these things shouldn't be unreasonable and to a HD person they aren't at all...it's almost 2nd nature. Here's why an LD person may find these things daunting....
- initiating sex 40-50% of the time (it takes courage to do this...this is perhaps the most scary thing you could ask....I'd cut this % way back at first 25% perhaps, then ask her to increase as time goes by.) - vocal expressions of sexual desire/enjoyment (from “I’ve been thinking of being with you tonight” to specific likes and desires [the more graphic the better]) (Ok this may not be so difficult, but don't demand graphics yet...it may come with time...but you may never get that one completely.) - trying new sexual positions (I don't feel this is too much to ask...not when you are already ML, I don't see why you wouldn't get this when you're already getting some ) - sexual touches and gropes (at home and elsewhere) (Define for her what "sexual touches" are to you...her definition may not be the same as yours...this too is attainable) - sex outside of the bedroom (outdoors, other rooms, vehicles, etc.) (Don't go nuts on this one yet, take it slow...familiar different rooms in the house to begin with perhaps?) - mid-day quickies (doable) - wake up sex or middle of the night sex (Do you know if she wakes up in the middle of the night, or is she a sound sleeper?) - being “done” (you're going to have to define this more...you being done and her being done are two different things.) - oral or manual activity when intercourse isn’t possible (reasonable) - flashing me or going without underwear (this will be reasonable if/when she's comfortable with her own body...if she already is great! You just might get this one too fairly quickly.)
Hopefully a few of these suggestions to your list will help you define for your LDW exactly what it is you want...that she can give at this point...then maybe you can come to an agreement on some of them.
Way to go Mike. She initiated for a change and was willing to try. Gotta give her credit for stepping up tp the plate for once. There is a definate change from mercy sex to willingness. I applaud your efforts to reach your wife and explain your needs to her, but I really applaud her for reaching out of her comfort zone which is very difficult for LD folks to do.
Don't push her too hard too fast as that may backfire. You know if you are pushing too hard and as much as you want to push further, give her time and room to find comfort in her sexuality and sensuousness.
JoJo - just a voyeur (by reading this board) and have been for too dammed long *sigh*
It sounds very reasonable to me but I'm a HDH so I don't know if my opinion does you much good. I think it's a great list, and I've also had difficulty with specifics in the past. I'd tell her it doesn't seem like she enjoys sex very much, and she would of course just say "yes I do." So I'm sure telling her specific things you'd like her to do would be a step in the right direction.
It sounds like she's already somewhat willing to step outside her comfort zone which is a good sign. I'd probably emphasize to her that you're not looking for all of them or even any specific one(s), certainly not right away. I would think that if she wants things to improve, she could find one she's comfortable with and as she gets more comfortable, she'll be more willing to try the others.
Thanks for your post. I agree with everything you said.
When I posted that there were no "deal breakers" on the list, I meant that there was nothing there that wasn't negotiable. I also mean that I'm patient enough to work through any difficulties my W might have with any of the points. I don't expect her to morph into my list-woman as I snap my fingers. It would just mean the world to me to have a point of agreement and see attempts (no matter how small) in some of these areas.
To clarify: - sexual initiation % - I want this to know that she WANTS me. I'm not going to be counting, I just want it to be something she wants, too. I know me. I'll come after her 10 times to every 1 she initiates if I feel that I'm wanted. (That's the way we started our M, but "NO" stopped me coming after her.) - vocal expressions - I'm not demanding anything. The "graphics" is just what I'd like. She has difficulty in this area, particularly with the F word. That's ok. She could say "DO me!" instead. It would mean the same to me. However, "Please insert your penis in my vaginal opening now" wouldn't quite be the same, IYKWIM. (She would never say that, btw.) - sexual touching/groping - I just want to be able to touch and fondle my W ocassionally w/o being accused or thought of as being insensitive, only about sex, not caring about "her", etc. I'd like to be touched, too, but I'm really looking for her to want me to touch her, I guess. - sex outside of the bedroom - Again, as it's convenient and desired by us both. I haven't compiled a list of places I want to "do it". We have talked about this one before and she's OK with it. (Although she was a little hesistant about the glass elevator in the hotel idea. ) - wake up or middle of the night sex - This one has always been taboo. Sleep seems to rate higher than sex with me. (BTW, have I mentioned that I have a REAL problem with everything that rates higher than me? ) - being "done" - I mean this in the PM way, with a desire to bring pleasure to your S as the primary goal. (Reciprocation is an absolute certainty here. ) ____________________
Jo,
I couldn't agree with you more. I am so proud of her for the other night! She took the initiative and included things that were good for her (romance game)and things for me, too (involving whipped cream and trying a new position [unsuccessfully, but willing to attempt it again]).
She's taking making changes seriously and I'm very pleased about it. I've got a lot of work to do to undo past hurts I've caused her, but she's really making an effort. And her effort means so much to me!
Thanks for caring.
Mike - 23 year voyeur veteran, ready to GET IN the game
Mike, I don't think that there is any thing wrong wiht your list, but I do agree with some of the others that you might have to lower the % that she iniates and take it slow in getting to sex out side of your bedroom. I think that if I made a list like that it would be very simular.
Glad things seem to be working. I would take baby steps. I made the mistake of sharing my list of "key bahaviors" on the "Working on Desire" thread with my W a few weeks ago and she was pretty overwhelmed by it. But whether it was the right decision can only be known in the years ahead.
Also, my W specifically asked me to make a list when we first started this process. I wrote an incredibly detailed list of everything I wanted. What was funny was that my lack of sex made me want all sorts of stuff. It also was phrased with "you" all throughout it. It was like a recipe for a porn-star and inadvertently attacked her personality. Before I knew anything or knew whose info to trust, I used a list that was a collaboration between CeMar and Meatpuppet. This at least let me off the hook but it was still a stupid move because it spoke to the fact that the LDW has the 100% of the problem. Stupid, Stupid, Stupid!!!!. The other problem was that I was "stupid horny" and wanted my W to be a swinging pornstar. Now that sex is fairly regular, I don't need all the stuff on my list. Sure it would be great to get a few extra gropes and to have a W who teases me with not underwear, but in the grand scheme, it comes down to bedroom time and initiation. Once they can get fairly good with that, then you will both feel more comfortable with the other things on the list.
BTW People: I provided the link for informational purposes only. If you want sex to get really bad, really fast, then share that with your spouse.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
barney said: ------------- I've got a lot of work to do to undo past hurts I've caused her, but she's... -------------
That, dear barney, is the key to unlocking her desire. She is willing and you are going to meet her where she has needs.
Keep a fire extinguisher handy!
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Laying it "all" out will deny you the opportunity to assert yourself and your higher-level of differentiation along the way. Like I described in my sitch, we just got the frequency thing up and now I'm feeling much more comfortable with asking her for more of the little things. I really feel like the R will have to be in a much different place before I move the pointer. I'd take each one, one step at a time and wait to see how well she "rises" to meet each one before putting another one in front of her.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
) This thread is an attempt to give definition to those terms. I appreciate your input.
)
She initiated for a change and was willing to try. Gotta give her credit for stepping up tp the plate for once. There is a definate change from mercy sex to willingness. I applaud your efforts to reach your wife and explain your needs to her, but I really applaud her for reaching out of her comfort zone which is very difficult for LD folks to do. 
)