Tim, here is my current quandary. I have pretty much resolved all other issues about my sex life except for how he shows his desire for me. I guess at this point I am wondering just how many times I plunge into the growth cycle and get no results before I say, Screw this, my sex life with him is pretty darn good though not perfect. Kwim?
I am trying to see if I am striving for perfection when in fact there is no such thing.
OR, if I have a legitimate case for still trying to enact some change.
Part of me says: I really and truly hate the way he shows desire, so therefore I should keep at this until we are BOTH happy. The other part says: Good gravy, woman, what are ya nuts. Just enjoy what you have and help him make up for his weaknesses and play up his strengths.
Which is kinda how I see Mojo operating these days. Her H has not really changed all that much, she has instead accepted what SHE must do in order to draw out his desire and have a fulfilling sex life. (Mo, if you read this I don't mean to imply that Mr. Wilson has not changed at all..)
So I am wondering at what point does acceptance of the others' limitations fit into the picture?
Which bring me to you, NOP. Thanks for the illustration. I can see from it that she really hasn't changed much in her delivery...she is just willing and eager now. Again, not that she hasn't changed at ALL but that the dramatics come in the fact that she is willing and not necessarily what she is DOING. Is this a fair statement?
And I totally agree with you; this is huge. I do not underestimate what it takes for my husband to be willing and eager. I am trying to discern whether I should continue to state my wishes for a husband who can outright desire me (without me setting the stage and doing the work) or accept that this is his way of stating his needs--"I will give you frequent and eager sex but I will not show flagrant desire."
I will have to ask him that very question in fact. I have just seen how stupid it is to query perfect strangers about what my husbands limitations are...hmm.
I will ask him this: Does the fact that you have never addressed my wish for outright desire mean that you do not wish to work on this?
See, part of the problem is that he will promise me the moon and then never even deliver a rock. I just want total honesty about what he is and is not capable of...and unlike you, Tim, I do not believe that the sky is the limit according to Schnarch. I really do believe that people have limitations (or they believe they have limitations) which are so strong and real that to push them to get past them would require such force that the end result might be a destruction of the love that was there in the first place.
Ok, I am getting philosophical so it is obviously time to sign off.
Quote: Part of me says: I really and truly hate the way he shows desire, so therefore I should keep at this until we are BOTH happy. The other part says: Good gravy, woman, what are ya nuts. Just enjoy what you have and help him make up for his weaknesses and play up his strengths.
I guess what I'm saying is a combination of these. You should probably accept the possibility that if you ever DO achieve what you're after, it may take a LONG time. You may just be being too impatient. The time scale may be all that's off. Is it worth going after, if it may take YEARS with no guarantee? You're the only one who can answer that. And, as you point out, things are pretty good without it... that may be what you get, but then again, there may be surprises down the road. The Lord works in mysterious ways...
HP said: ----------- I will have to ask him that very question in fact. I have just seen how stupid it is to query perfect strangers about what my husbands limitations are...hmm.
I will ask him this: Does the fact that you have never addressed my wish for outright desire mean that you do not wish to work on this? -----------
Woa. That sounds way too accusatory.
Rather, ask him how he is coming with the desire issue. Ask him specifically what he is doing to address it. Ask him how you can help.
My wife is willing to learn. I can't ask for more than that. I also can't set her pace. That is for her to decide. She is aware that it is important to me AND is taking action. Rome wasn't built in a day. Good sexual relationships take time. Fantastic ones take even more. For me to complain right now would be like a very bad flight instructor...
I will tell you a little secret that is working for me. Frequency does compensate for experience to some degree. Try increasing the number of your sessions and decreasing (at least a bit) your expectations. Try dropping the initiation issue for a while in deference to a schedule. It was a major factor in our hurdle. Set it for a time when hubby is awake and children are asleep. Any time will do, but make it firm, not just 'every other day'. Try something like "between 8 and 9 on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday".
It may be uncomfortable at first, but I think you will find that it helps.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Hi HP, As a woman, I can relate to how much the "feeling desired" issue hits to your core and I am struggling with it myself. Personally, I don't think it takes all that much from our spouses to set the right tone in the house ( a few spontaneous grabs,kisses, hugs, etc. ). The right attitude can go a long way. This is not rocket science and my H is not getting a pass because he's desire-disabled. I am working on the assumption that my H is clueless and stubborn, that we have relationship issues, and that it's up to me to get what I need from him.
I think in your heart you will know when things are good enough and you can overlook certain faults in your H. You know you're in a good space when you can act in a playful and humorous manner to get a response and have that "there he goes again " attitude when you aren't getting what you want. Remember that your cheerful attiude seems to help him along. When you're feeling depleted, the anger and resentment will start resurfacing, and it's time to pull back a bit. Figure out what it is you want and in simple terms make it clear what you are looking for. I know you are doing this but it's worth repeating. Asking him if he desires to work on this is NOT the way to go.
Remember that this may not be the best time to look for change ( will ya have that baby already????) and to be really good to yourself. You're one helluva preggo lady. J
When I hear NOP, I just can't help but think how fortunate we are to have people at all points in the "progress spectrum". These last few posts have been very good. It reminds me that my "working on desire" might be a "fusion" thing where I'm seeking validation through her "desire" NOP's frequency thing is interesting and I'm feeling almost comfortable with proposing something like that. I think that I will wait until her next P in a month to do this so she can have 3 weeks of "initiation anxiety". She has told me a long time ago that she doesn't want to schedule it but this was before she realized that I was going to ask for her to initiate more often than she "instinctively" wanted to. She might be thinking a little differently these days. That's why I feel one more month will be good. Plus, the scenario she painted while we were ML...where she described coming to me to be serviced by me? She was serious. I'm sort of anticipating this now. I wouldn't want to deprive myself of something that cool with a schedule.
Thank you NOP for all your wisdom. You are a very interesting guy.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Poor SuperDave. His Wave has been hijacked by Honeypot.
Anywho...Honeypot, I think we always have to take our spouse's limitations into account. The hard part is to figure out what's a valid limitation, and what is a self-imposed limitation. What's real, and what's laziness? What is something they absolutely can't do, and what is something that they just aren't willing to do.
I know my wife will never be a sex-lovin', dirty-dancin', tongue thrustin', ecstaticly-screamin' nympho, like, for examply, you are. And I accept this as a real limitation she has, whether it be psychological or physical. But I do think that she can be a quiet, demure, shyly sexual woman who could open up to my advances in an enthusiastic way. Instead, she appears to me now to be a sexual dud who sees me as a bother when I make advances.
I will not accept the latter...at least not forever. Now, you need to figure out the difference between what you H is able to do, and what he is unable to do.
That's exactly how I see my W. I can't envision any scenario in which she would ever aggressively pursue sex or be overcome with burning desire. But I think that the "shyly sexual woman who could open up to my advances in an enthusiastic way" is a very real possibility. So I agree wholeheartedly with your position on spousal limitations. They may learn to open up and to be more sexual, but I don't think you're going to change their basic personality traits.
SD, I really do deserve 40 lashings for hijacking your thread.
However, since when has a good spank deterred me from doing something I really want to do anyway.
Last night sucked. H initiated; the foreplay was really not much to write home about. He laid there completely silent, stroking me. After about 10 minutes he got frustrated that it was taking me so long. There was absolutely NO signs of desire from his end; just pushing Button A only. I told him that it takes me longer when he does not kiss me, talk to me or otherwise engage me in the process. He is laying there, eyes closed, acting as if it is no more exciting than changing the oil in the car. We both got a little heated--he said that my expectations of him are too much; I said that his technique was not turning me on and just what did he want me to do about that? I pointed out that I have told him many times what I am after as far as desire is concerned and so far there has been no change. He said he was confused on what kinds of things I am talking about. Folks we've had this conversation so many times I could do it by heart. WHY can't he remember it--because the stakes are not high enough yet, that's why. He knows that ultimately I will get cheerful again so there is no real motivation to do something that is out of his comfort zone.
I made the usual suggestions (sometime whisper to me that you are anxious for the kids to go to bed so we can ML) and this was his response: First of all, that will never happen. I will never make sexual comments when my kids are awake; you can give up on that. Secondly, I will never do that because I am not like that. I don't talk like that and you can give up on that, too.
I pointed out to him that if the kids go to bed at 8:30 (recently it's been later because it is so light out, so about 9:00) and HIS bedtime is 9:00 you can see just how much time he allots to thinking about and planning for sex.
So we went back to the desire issue and I said to him that I want to occasionally see HIS desire and have that be what gets me going. Our pattern is that he shows no desire, he strokes me, I get aroused, my arousal turns him on and then we are ready to go. The problem with that? WHAT IS THERE TO GET ME TURNED ON?? I mean, I am physically horny but it sure would be nice to be aroused by my husband. If this is what I can expect and this is the way the pattern works, I sure would love to hear from an LD person so that I can work on accepting it.
I said that during foreplay I wasn't getting any sense of his desire and so it was taking me forever. Then the light bulb went off and I said, "Wait! DID you want to ML tonight?" He replied no he didn't. I was crushed. We had not ML in a week because he hadn't been feeling good and so I ASSumed he was ready for me and wanting me. I started crying over a sweeping feeling of humiliation that came over me. Guys, I really thought he was horny for me or that he was looking forward to feeling better so he could be with me. He wasn't. So that was a partial reason for the lackluster foreplay. He didn't want to be doing it in the first place. Even writing this I have tears in my eyes.
So I asked him to temporarily put a hold on the mercy sex (although I didn't call it that) and only initiate if he was really wanting it. I said that I was aware that it would mean a decline in frequency. He agreed.
Since he shows no desire at all, I never know if he is truly horny or being merciful. One could say that it doesn't matter, but it does. He is obviously feeling resentful for having to 'put out' so he is copping a 'tude about the length of foreplay as well as other things I will not go into.
One final thought: This is one of the areas (and perhaps the most significant) in which it is harder to be the HD wife. I get the impression that most men on this board would be happy with willing and enthusiastic wives; the wives coming out of their shell on a regular basis to show DESIRE would be icing, but not the necessary cake. For us chicks, it is a little different. We have been socialized (for better or worse) to expect that the man will desire us and be the aggressor. I am willing to be the aggressor but I feel very uncomfortable in the role of having to have enough desire for both of us. It feels unnatural to me. I know that you will not be able to relate to this portion of the message but it may explain why I am so hung up on this one issue.
It is a twofold problem, really. Getting an LD man to work on his libido and then teaching?...insisting?...working with them? to act more manly in the sack. Whereas with the LD women, they can still act like WOMEN but just be more enthusiastic and willing and their men are happy as clams.
It just sucks so bad and I am feeling hopeless today. I do not like hearing such definitive statements as "I will never do that; you can give up on it."
Oh, btw, NOP I did not ask that question. I agree it was harsh, I was just feeling sassy when I posted it! I do not talk to H that way, for the record. I am firm but loving to him. After last night, though, I am not feeling so loving and maybe I will ask it anyway.
Dave, feel free to tell me to take a hike and post on my own thread.
HP, you know better than to make statements like "most men on this board would be happy with willing and enthusiastic wives; the wives coming out of their shell on a regular basis to show DESIRE would be icing, but not the necessary cake." Desire is VERY important. Willing or compliant isn't enough. You may have gotten that impression from the statements about frequency, but it's a mistaken impression. It's just that in some of our cases the frequency is so low that ANYTHING seems like an improvement. I've said many times that my W has to actually be there before I need to worry about her "being there", but that doesn't mean that "being there" isn't important. It's just hard to get worked up about lack of desire or lack of enthusiasm when you're getting no sex at all.
And I accept this as a real limitation she has, whether it be psychological or physical. But I do think that she can be a quiet, demure, shyly sexual woman who could open up to my advances in an enthusiastic way. Instead, she appears to me now to be a sexual dud who sees me as a bother when I make advances. 
