GELass (aka Knockout ) Wow! What great posts! You're helping me a lot! Please don't stop informing us about how you overcame your self-consciousness, etc. in your journey to HD. I'm hopeful that HP, Annette, SC, Johanna and others will join in with their experiences and outlook on sex.
Guys, I know the temptation to talk about your sitch and compare Lassie's steps with your W's, but let's be careful to not sidetrack the thread. The HDWs have a lot of info that will help us and LDWs that are trying to improve their SDs.
Ok...I'll let you in on my secret for making some major changes in my life. I used to be a very painfully shy person (believe it or not)...however right around the time I began dealing with my self-esteem/sexuality issues I was also thrust in to the position of "Trainer/Instructor" for the company I work for. Well, you can't be painfully shy and be a successful teacher can you...doesn't work that way.
So I adopted the approach of "acting" yes, I said acting like a teacher that I admired in the past. You know what? It worked...it was very uncomfortable at first to put myself out there...I thought everyone would see through my charade...after a little time passed though...I became that self-confident teacher I admired. I no longer had to act the part...I was that person. I used to think that was such a "chicken" way of doing things...but you know what? It worked! So I adopted it in other roles in my life as well...was a I being untrue to the person I was with by "acting" my ideal of what I wanted to be? No, I was still me...I was just pushing myself to change to be the way I wanted.
Was really surprised to find that other very successful people have adopted this same approach in their lives...did you know that Barbara Streisand also adopted this approach to get over her shyness? And there I was thinking I was being an original thinker LOL...just goes to show you, there is no original thought
Ok, so through a convo with a GF about how great her sex life was, you decided to find out what great sex was all about. Your guy made you feel beautiful and sexy, and increased your desire through his slow, gentle, and tender manner of ML. And you overcame your self-consciousness in bed by "acting" confident doing things about which you really felt unsure of yourself.
Is that right? Was it the same motivation that you began with that carried you through? Why did you begin to care about sex just because of what your GF said? What about the W that says, "I couldn't do that"?
Mike - it sounded a lot better when you said it than when I recapped it
Yes...the conversation which was one of many with this particular friend of mine...she's a typical girlfriend (we women share an awful lot of personal stuff at times). I guess I figured if this woman, who was really not much different than I was was having this great sex...what was stopping me from doing that? Was it the men I was with...or was it me? If it was the men I was with...then why was I gravitating towards these men? Everything I kept wondering always kept coming back to...ME. Therefore I rationalized the problem/solution lie in...ME.
So yes...I took on a falsly self-confident air for awhile...in most aspects of my life...including sex. What would I have to be in order to do the things I'd heard were so great in bed from my friends...the answer for me was I had to be more confident in my abilities. I had to stop being so self-concious that I'd freeze up and be too embarrassed to try things. Don't get me wrong...I'm still not the world's best at communicating what I want in the bedroom...but I'm now not afraid to try things on my spouse to see if he'll like them. I'm now not afraid to be creative...getting him over that hurdle now is the difficulty :-)
As to the guy who initially helped me...yes, the fact that he was patient and gentle really helped. Patient was really the key. I still felt like a bumbling fool at times...but eventually I got past that...and that's where the "Just do it" comes in.
LD people need to realize that changing from LD to HD isn't easy...it will take time...most of all it will take effort...and if they love their partner that effort is so worth it. However, if the LD partner isn't willing to make that change then the HD partner has a long road ahead of them. For as we all know, you can't change someone...they have to want to make that change themself...the only thing you can change is you.
Mike I think Lassie is doing a fine job, so I will leave it to her.
I really have no experience at being LD and then HD. I have always been HD, through pregnancy, childbirth and long term nursing of (so far) two kids. So the "usual" culprits have not turned me off.
So I'm not sure I really have much to add to the convo, as far as what to tell an LD wife to get her motivated to meet her H halfway. I know that I have been utterly unsuccessful at convincing my LD SIL that she would be a lot happier with a better sex life, and to stop thinking about it in terms of her husband "winning" the battle.
Probably the only thing I would stress is that frequent sex will make HER happier, forget about the guy.
And then I'd (hopefully) make her toes curl with stories of my (mostly) happy sex life with H. I would love to do that with SIL but she is H's sister and TMI would prolly gross her out.
I do know that I'd stay away from the 'he feels rejected and lonely' slant, as it doesn't seem to matter. When you are dealing with that level of resentment, they don't care what he is going through. It sounds harsh but hey, I've been there (resentful) about other topics--not sex--and I didn't care what he was going thru.
Lass, would the knowledge about how much your H was suffering have helped you overcome your LD when you were in that position? If it would have, then I stand corrected.
Oh well, as I said, I'm not sure what I would say since I have always been HD and have even ended a long term relationship because of too little sex, before I met H. So half the time I wonder if I am the problemo.
Quote: I'm hopeful that HP, Annette, SC, Johanna and others will join in with their experiences and outlook on sex.
Hey Mike, good to see you again. I haven't been in this neighborhood lately. I'm not sure I ever went from LD to HD. I suspect I'm a born and bred horn dog <smile>
I started late sexually, due to overwhelming fear of getting pregnant. (well, actual sex/penetration... I was not totally unexperienced.) But I was not LD, just avoiding risk of pregnancy.
Even when I went through bad times with my then-husband, I did not become LD. I might not have particularly wanted him, but I wanted sex. Kinda like you still want to get the oil changed in a vehicle you aren't crazy about? Wow, that sounds bad! Only towards the end of our R did that wear off-- to the point that I almost left in the middle of sex the last time. For me, there seems to be two aspects-- physical pleasure and emotional intimacy. Both have to get to a minimal threshhold for things to work. If one is missing, it's not going to go as well as it should.
First the emotional piece. I don't have to be totally over the top in love and married to the man, but I have to have good and warm feelings towards him. I have to feel "safe" and feel mutual affection. I have never had sex with anyone I did not genuinely care for-- thought I have had some "no strings" sex. If I don't care/like him, even just for the moment, I won't let the physical pleasure work. I block it or avoid it, it seems like too big a risk to let myself go unless there is a level of trust. Best example-- no way will I recieve oral from someone unless I feel really comfortable with them. It's too good, too intensely personal to be that vulnerable with someone who's not "right". And this can be situational for me. I can have moments when someone I care very deeply for, is just in the dog house. So no go. The flip side is that make up sex is incredible for me.
With the emotional threshhold in place, then the physical pleasure goes a long long way.
If the emotional connection is there, simple contact-- like watching a movie with his arm around me, can lead to wanting more. Spontaneous touches, just casual contact then makes me open to/want more. It's probably a brain or heart thing, more than straightforward lust at first.
Really good kissing is a wonderful place to start. And worth doing as a stand alone, not just as a start, BTW. For me, if I'm not totally into it going in... I can get there if someone takes there time. I like plenty of attention to breasts, love kisses on my neck. (this is where the heart/head thing started moving lower, at least for me.) Even though I'm pretty easily aroused, I'd rather have more attention between my legs before penetration most of the time.
And if something I'm doing is "just right" I damned sure want to know... dead silence is unnerving to me. If I'm trying to give pleasure, and I'm succeeding, I want to know. If I'm not, then I want some help doing better.
Not that I'd ever, ever, ever tell my lover any of this without prompting. The first time I was with someone who wanted to accelerate a learning curve on how to please me, he probably thought it was like pulling teeth. I was SO not ready to say in words what I wanted it wasn't even funny. It took a while to get me even partially there, able to communicate what I needed or wanted. Which reminds me, sometimes you just gotta take your time. The worst thing is when you feel like he's rushing through XY and Z but really he's just ready. Slow down, get process fixated instead of results fixated. The first time someone arranged pillows and made it clear he was planning to spend quite a bit of time with his head between my legs-- then did so, it was incredible and quite a breakthrough. It took all the pressure off me, and I could enjoy myself more than ever before. Men can put a lot of pressure on W to have orgasms, and pressure almost always ensures it won't happen.
I would have to speculate that even a LD person, who had a long leisurely sesson of mind blowing pleasure-- focusing on pleasure, sharing, sensations without any pressure to "perform" and have orgasms.... would have to be really open to a repeat. I almost suspect that LD women are not really having orgasms... either faking it, or maybe they think those little tingles are all they are? Just a thought, who knows?
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig.
Hi Mike, I have posted before how I was the LDW for the majority of my 17 yr marriage; it was not even 2 yrs ago that I became a sexual being again. I won't go into the details that lead to my transformation right now, but essentially it came about by my conscious decision to let go of negative feelings and work towards being a happier person.
From my unique LD/HD postion, I did want to share one insight: it's not the difference in sex drives that is causing the problems in the relationship, it's really the other way around. Working through differences, whether it's about sex or some other issue, can lead to greater intimacy when there is proper love and respect. Look at NOPkins...he has had a lot of hot sex in his life( lots of high desire there) but only makes love with his wife. And Corri, who fought her way back from LD hell, only to discover something missing in the marriage.
We all want to experience unconditional love...we want our needs to be listened to, repected, cared about, not judged and not belittled. However, the only way to receive this love is to in fact insist on it! This comes by feeling good enough about yourself to have the strength to stand up for whatever it is you feel you need. You may not get everything you want, but you will know when you are feeling loved and your needs are being considered, and that will feel fulfilling. Some of you are starting to have more and more moments like this...take note of what has been working and hold on dearly as the tendency to revert back to old ways is very strong.
One way I have kept my desire going is by using my mind and fantasy life. Last nite H approached me in bed and said to me " I want to see you come." Now, this isn't how the fantasy goes, but I appreciated that he was able to reach out and understand my higher drive and make this kind of statement. There was no anger or resentment and no blame on me for having the higher drive. For me, this is love. We experienced an erotic and intimate moment, not in the conventional sense, but in a way that worked for us. Later, in the middle of the night, he did initiate sex spontaneously...seems when I pull back a bit on the ML issue he is able to come forward. I am learning that what we are sharing now is better than the "perfect" image I had in my head...it's about the two of us working things through, quirks and all, with love and acceptance.
No one on this board needs my validation of how special and unique you each are, but I am giving it anyway! I have ( and continue to) enjoy reading about your lives and each day I grow wiser and more inspired. You all have my gratitude and best wishes for happiness, as I work on my own. Maybe one day I will be able to better share my fantasies with H! J
Thanks for joining in. I learned quite a lot from your post. A few highlights:
_________________________ You wrote: "And if something I'm doing is "just right" I damned sure want to know... dead silence is unnerving to me. If I'm trying to give pleasure, and I'm succeeding, I want to know. If I'm not, then I want some help doing better."
Qualified by: "I was SO not ready to say in words what I wanted it wasn't even funny. It took a while to get me even partially there, able to communicate what I needed or wanted." _______________
That helps a lot! I totally identify with the part about wanting to know if I'm doing good, not because I'm fused or looking for validation, but because I'm really trying to give my W pleasure. If there's something I could do better, I want to know so I can do it!
But, frankly, I thought that was just a HD trait. It helps me to see that even a HDW had to "learn" to verbalize. My W thanks you for letting me know that.
Time spent ML has become somewhat of a resentment for me. My W is the ultimate romantic. I've tried things like candles, music, oils, massages, feather dusters, bubble baths, colored light bulbs, cards, notes, and heating scented oils. I'm OK with this, but not every @!#*&! time! I've been guilty of doing the Mr. HP stroke, stroke, stroke, strooooooooke, jerk back awake, stroke, stroke, stroke thing with a feather duster in my hand.
We need to come to some kind of agreement about frequency for fun sex, quickie sex and romantic sex (along with any other types of sex I can talk her into ). But you've helped me understand the need to cut her some slack on loosening up.
Your comment about making the decision to become a happier person is HUGE, IMO. You determined, I assume, that part of that was to allow yourself to become more sexual. Someone said, "You can only change what you first acknowledge."
Congrats to your willingness to do both! It's what all the HDM here are hoping for in their M's.
Regarding the expectations you place upon your spouses to change, ie., give you MORE sex:
Quote:
The fact that you do not respect yourself enough to change gives your wife nothing to respect. Yet you demand that she do so.
Your (spouse) was not put on this earth to provide you with sex, even in marriage. That is his/her choice. It is your choice to either accept that or not. Notice I am not at any point proclaiming you have to LIKE your choices.
What I hear (you saying) is that you want to control your (spouses) so you can feel desirable. Feeling desirable comes from the inside, not through an act of comfirmation from your spouse.
Where you say that connection between you and your spouses doesn't exist is actually a falsehood. Truly, you have such a bonded connection, such a fused sense of identity, you cannot allow your spouse freedom to be and act as they are, nor can you find comfort in who you are.
Every action you take is a manuever on your part to get your spouse to change. The fact that they resist change is an act on their part to remain a seperate being or entity. You take an action to get your spouse to act a certain way so you can feel good about yourself. They resist any action at all so they can continue to feel good about their own self.
Under this type of scenario, you reach gridlock, solid, fast and true. It is a natural occurence of a relationship, a plateau if you will, that is an indication that change must take place in order to foster continued growth.
From your own efforts, you understand well that no matter what outward manuever you attempt with your spouse, they hold firm in who they say they are, and what they say they will or will not do.
Neither one of you, to any strong or lasting degree, has even attempted to change your personal or internal attitudes about yourselves.
Who the hell wants to do that? That's hard. It's uncomfortable, it's scary, there are no guarenteed outcomes, we must confront those less than perfect aspects of ourselves, and put forth a continued effort of new ways of being and acting. Yes, it would just be so much simplier if our spouses saw it OUR way, conformed to our wants and needs, and let us stay within our comfort zones. We aren't asking for much, after all... right?
All I can tell you is, if you want to stay within your comfort zone, there isn't going to be much change. You have how many years of marriage behind you now to prove that? It is your choice to change. No one is forcing you.
You keep asking... but, how, how, how do I do that? You shut up, read the PM book and see YOURSELF in its passages, not your spouse, and follow the directions.
There are no promises, no guarantees. If you don't want to at least try, fine. Crack the book and get busy. It's time to grow up and take your own life by the horns.
Corri
For additional input and support of this premise, see the Mojo files.
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). But you've helped me understand the need to cut her some slack on loosening up.