I'm trying to reach any LDW out there who may have a hard time understanding where their spouse is coming from.
Why does he push me so much for sex? Why is it so important to him? Why can't he just leave me alone!? Doesn't he know "normal" people don't have sex that often?
Well....The first thing I'd tell a LDW is this...There is no "normal" frequency for sex (I don't care what you read online or in a book). Some people desire it more often, some don't...some don't desire it at all. That's where compromise comes in. Partners work together through communication to find a happy medium...or at least a frequency that both can live with. Along with that however is an absolute need for communication that goes both ways.
Believe it or not I have a LDH, yes you read correctly a man who doesn't want sex very often if at all. I know some women think I'm sooo lucky...how did I luck out? I didn't. The fact that my H and I ML so infrequently is a great source of distress to me...it affects my ego, self-esteem, and mood on a day-to-day basis. I miss the emotional connection that comes with ML/physical affection...and believe it or not men miss it too.
If you are a LDW that has a HDH try (and I mean really try...not make a feeble attempt with a bad attitude) to see things from your H's perspective. It is so hurtful when someone makes you out to be a nyphomaniac, crazy, or demanding and then just pushes you away or ignores you. Instead I implore you to try to think of something that is so important to you (something you feel you cannot live without), then imagine not having it (you can see it, you can smell it, and almost touch it...but you can't have it)...then add to it the fact that your partner has the ability to give you what it is you're missing but for some unknown reason can't or won't. I know it sounds all too simple, but it's true...at least from this Green Eyed perspective...
One other thing I'd like to add...ignoring the situation, pretending it doesn't exist, or flat-out denying it doesn't help the situation. If you're partner has brought up a problem, then a problem obviously exists.
If you are in your marriage for the long-haul then wake up and smell the roses! You're partner is really suffering. Being rejected sexually is very painful for both men and women alike. Please realize there are going to be times when compromise is necessary...I think we all know that :-) Sometimes that means doing things when maybe your really not in the mood. Have you ever found that sometimes when you're really not in the mood to do something, you have a fun time anyway?
Sometimes that old addage (thanks to Nike) of "Just Do It!" really does work too! I used to be a LD person, until I started learning to enjoy sex...not just go through the motions. If you're one of those women (and I know, I used to be like this myself) who is so uncomfortable with her body that she just cannot overcome that uncomfortable feeling of being naked and intimate...work on that. It's very important that you get comfortable with yourself, if you've gained weight (I know I have) it's fine to be self concious about it...but know that your husband is probably fine with that and loves you anyway...especially if he has told you so. I know I think more about my weight than my H does...he loves me the way that I am. It took me some time to get comfy with that idea...but now I really like it.
Anyone out there have anything to add before I write a novelette myself?
Quote: Anyone out there have anything to add before I write a novelette myself?
No, Lass, I think you summed it all up very well. I do have a comment though.
Quote: I implore you to try to think of something that is so important to you (something you feel you cannot live without), then imagine not having it (you can see it, you can smell it, and almost touch it...but you can't have it)...then add to it the fact that your partner has the ability to give you what it is you're missing but for some unknown reason can't or won't.
Right there you said something I've been struggling forever trying to get across. Celibacy would be difficult for me under any conditions, but celibacy while living in close proximity with a woman I adore and fiercely desire is pure hell. I can't begin to describe what it does to me when she comes to bed naked and snuggles up to me when we haven't ML in months. But she'll do it every night. Arrrrrggggh!
How about chapter 2 on how you went from LD to HD? Specifics on learning to enjoy sex, maybe...what made you start trying, what actions did you take to get started, how confident were you starting out, etc. Sorry if I'm prying, but it could help the HD who hears from their LDS they "want" to but doesn't know how.
Mike, I went from LD to HD, as well. Well, I was probably initially pretty HD, but I had an unhappy 1st marriage and sex was a big problem (he was MUCH higher drive than I, plus there were a gazillion other things wrong). However, just in the last ten years, within the context of a wonderful 2nd marriage, I've gone from lower to higher. There's been a lot involved. As I posted on another thread, I started with learning to accept compliments. It took two years to begin to believe that someone could find me sexy. Then, a HD girlfriend started sort of teasing me about my asexual style. I learned about feeling sexy and for me, it had to do with learning about makeup, lingerie, style, and more style. I learned that I needed to feel sexy every day, for myself, even if it was just wearing lingerie no one could see. I needed to feel sexy, even if at work I am a pretty cool professional. I wanted to feel sexy because...the sex was and is really good in this R.
The sex in the previous R sucked. I can give specifics, if you're interested.
I started this new R with my eyes open, sexually speaking, and although I can't say I made specific demands, I wanted to know immediately what his needs and desires were, and I wanted him to know mine. My H is a bit LD, and we've learned that his drive drops lower under certain stressful circumstances. Nothing seems to effect my libido, all that much. Ha.
And in response to Green's original post, nothing is worse than feeling undesired/undesirable. I'm learning that when my H's desire is low, it has little or nothing to do with me. He says that, and I'm beginning to believe him.
More frequent sex, good sex, leads to stronger desire. Period. Especially for women. The neurotransmitters and physiology of sex are such that the longer you go, the harder it is to arouse yourself. I know that's not helpful to many of you...
Part of the problem of compromising with a ND women is that there is no acceptable level of sex that will keep both spouss happy. Ourr marriage started out at 365 times a year, now it is about 8 times a year. I prefer the 365, she prefers 0. So compromise would be splitting the difference, so around 180 times a year. To put it bluntly, she does not have a prayer of even becoming 1/2 the women that I married. Would 12 times a year do it, NO! Would 30 times a year do it, NO! 3 times a week, or 150 times a year, YES! There is no way a person can reach this level unles they DESIRE sex, which of course she does not. I have been reading the success stories on here, and frankly, the LD women are working at what they think is very hard for them, and they are not even remotely close to achieving TRUE success according to what their spouse right. The only real hope that LD women have is that they must somehow learn to desire their spouse, and that is RARE indeed.
Ok, you say you started out at 365 days a year...my first thought when I read that was...what happened to stop that? She must have enjoyed it to participate so frequently at that time. It makes me think there were underlying reasons...birth of a child, death in the family, did you start working more/less...did she etc. I find it hard to believe that if she was willing to ML with you at the beginning of your marriage every day that she's ND...it may be hidden, but I don't think she's ND. She may even be telling you she doesn't want it/think about it...you know what? My LDH said the same thing to me...come to find out he did want it/did think about it...just never communicated it to me...he had other things on his mind that kept getting in the way...to the point where he got to see ML as an inconvenience. I used to tell my ex the same thing as well...yes, I used to be LD too.
My next comment is this to you....from your posting I get the impression (and I could be way off here, no tonal inflection in the postings ya know)...that you aren't willing to accept anything less than a certain amount (lets say 180 times a year)....for someone who's LD/ND that's a daunting request. The fact is...if you want your LD/ND spouse to increase her desire....you may find you have to suck it up and accept a very low frequency at the beginning (as long as the frequency begins to increase). I know that's difficult...but if you really are dealing with someone who is LD...high expectations like that may be unrealistic at first.
I've been in her shoes...this is the only reason I can be so blunt with you. I have been married to a very abusive person (and please don't take my examples as meaning you are anything like this, or that your situation compares) and to an alcoholic...now I'm married to a wonderful man...who is having some LD difficulties. Anyway...as a result of the first two marriages I had no self-esteem and a horrible body image. If you'd have looked at me you'd have thought I was nuts! I was a knockout (still am :-) ) To everyone else (other than my spouse) I was a very self-confident woman as well...no one and I mean NO ONE would ever have guessed that my self esteem was actually at rock bottom. I hated sex then...I had issues with both spouses and both belittled me in certain ways. So for me sex was awful, it was a duty, and I HATED it!!! I figured if this is what it's like...I want nothing to do with it...ever! At that point I could easily have lived celebate.
What changed that for me? One day I was talking with a friend of mine...girl talk. She was telling me how great sex was with her new guy...like it was the most equisite thing she'd ever come across. It got me to thinking...what am I missing out on? It's never been that way for me...am I just frigid? Up until that point I had been doing things to increase my self esteem...living alone, becoming comfortable with who I am as a person, taking classes for myself in things I was interested in...in general just taking time to grow/mature as a person I guess. Eventually I came across a man (who I dated for quite some time) who was very generous sexually, he showed me (he didn't just tell me) that I was a drop-dead knockout in his eyes and took his time with me sexually speaking. My experiences up until then had been one of a man just trying to satisfy himself with me...not make love to me, if there was an attempt to do anything for me...it was in the form of very brief foreplay. Anyway...this man got me to the point where I could just relax and not be so self concious, I didn't feel stupid in bed or awkward (which I now realize is terribly important)...then WHO HOOO!!! Things became so much better and I actually found myself thinking about ML with him and looking forward to it...and yes, even initiating it, setting up romantic interludes etc.
My point being I guess is this...for me to become HD from being very LD it was a personal decision to become that way. I had to decide that I wanted to change, and wanted to really find out what great sex was and give it a chance. Which (for me) meant giving up my silly expectations of what it should be like...obviously my experience up until that point had warped my perception of what sex should be like. That meant I had to change my way of thinking and acting...and that's not an easy thing to do...but far from impossible if you want to do it.
Now if your LD/ND spouse is simply not willing to make the changes that she would need to make...most importantly just ML with you then unfortunately that's another issue (in my eyes). But my best advice to you...and you may have already tried this is really take your time with her in bed...don't get down to brass tacks quickly....and when you are ML if you have the personal control (and I know it's tough after a long time) stop and do something to please her in the middle of it...that may take her off guard too :-) But really take the time to ML to her, not just have sex with her. As a woman that had the most affect on me.
Just know it can be done...if she wants to do it, and you are patient enough to let her go through the process she needs to go through. Expecting her to ML once a week may not be realistic (we're all individual)...it may have to be once every two or three weeks...but you may find it increase if you both take on the "Just Do It" attitude...coupled with patience.
Best of luck :-)
Anita - Hopeful her experience as an LD will enable her to help her LDH.
We started ML probably 6 times a week. I've always done my best to please her - I just didn't get much feedback. When we married the frequency immediately dropped way back to pretty much once a week. Now she's telling me she's never liked it. She's always done it just for me. She'll never learn to like it and she just wants to give up.
I've read the sex books and earnestly tried to follow through, but I got no feedback. I WANT to take a long time building up to it but I get a "Hurry up. I'm tired."
For much of my M I've been in a world of pain and I've confused my W with someone who actually gives a s***.
This weekend I'll try again to do things she likes. Be pleasant and make her life as happy as possible while I deal with her judgement, rejection and apathy toward me and my simmering lust.
Oh, yeah. It's always the man who exploits and oppresses the woman.
Men/women who make difinitive statements that include "never" in them just frustrate/aggravate the hell out of me! Those people have already made up their minds that they aren't going to do something...they aren't even willing to try...not really try...they make a feeble effort and call that trying.
You on the other hand are doing everything within your powers that you can...the one thing you can't do is make her decide to try or change...and that's such a helpless feeling. I've known for quite some time that my LDH has some issues from his past R...for some time I tried so hard to be patient while he was working things out for himself (so I thought). The reality for us though was that he was avoiding working anything out...because working it out would be painful and difficult for him. Perhaps your LDW is afraid of facing some of her demons too. Those demons (whatever they may be) would definitely stand in the way of her enjoying a great sex life with you. What type of a self-image do you believe your W has of herself? Does she have body issues...never think she's smart enough? Just curious...it may help me help you understand where she's at in her head.
I’m in kind of a good stretch here where we’ve ML twice in the last two weeks and I hate to jinx it by complaining. But complain I will.
Your comments about being on both the LD and the HD side of the equation and about what caused you to be there just scream at me about my W. I absolutely believe that she has some kind of mental/emotional problem that is causing her LD, but I/we have had no luck in finding it and addressing it.
You said that you were in abusive and dysfunctional Rs before you got to where you are now. We were married quite young (she was 18, I was 19) and neither of us had much in the way of past Rs to deal with. But W DOES come from a really dysfunctional family that left her with very low self-esteem. Her family treats women as servants for the male members of the family. By the 4th grade she was doing the cooking and cleaning for a family of five and nothing she ever did was good enough. Her father farmed by day and had a second shift factory job besides, so he was mostly absent. But when he was there he had a violent temper that frequently got directed at her – both the youngest and a female to boot.
I don’t understand parents who want their children to be failures, but her parents actively discouraged ambition and success. I can see it in her older sister. I can see how they convinced her older brother that he would never amount to anything. He a very smart and engaging person, but he’s also convinced that he’s worthless. She also has a younger brother, 12 years younger, who is exactly the same way. When he was in his early teens, I had him convinced to go to college. He wanted to be a petroleum engineer. But even then, his parents were telling him that he wasn’t smart enough to go to college. Now he’s in his mid 30s, lives in a broken-down trailer in the corner of a soybean field, can’t hold a job, did time for possession of crystal meth with intent to distribute, and is a real pillar of society.
So W has self-esteem issues. There are body-image issues as well. She is right at five feet tall (a quarter of an inch shy really, but she doesn’t like me to mention that). When we were M she weighed somewhere around 120 lbs and wore a size 12-14. Within a couple of years she was up over 200 and wearing a 24W. When she got pregnant and first went to the doctor she weighed in at 234. Now she’s down to a svelte 180 or so. She’s in 18W-20W now. I would like her to be thinner both because she looks better and more importantly, because of the health issues, but desire-wise, her weight doesn’t put me off a bit. I’m attracted to her – not just a body. I frequently tell her that she’s attractive, sexy, hot, or what have you, but she ALWAYS replies with something like, “If you like fat.”
I honestly don’t know where I’m going with this, but your comments about abuse and low self-esteem just brought this out of me. While I don’t believe that there was any real physical abuse beyond the occasional over-zealous spanking, she did come from an intensely mentally abusive childhood. I know that she harbors feelings of being not up to snuff in most areas. I know that she doesn’t see herself as attractive. And I don’t know what to do about any of that.
