Ok I want to throw a question out there. I'm sure its been discussed before but I would loved some input on it. Meredith(thank you M ) has already posted some thoughts on my thread but I would like everyone elses input.
"How do you handle WAS lieing and try to curb it?"
God bless
Always questioning???
Not always sad!!!
Joanne
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning. Albert Einstein
I don't know if it's been discussed here or not. We've discussed lying, but in general terms. These are my thoughts and opinions, and I respect the fact that others might not agree with me or have other ideas. So I hope the forum is open for discussions in the "cafeteria" style: that is, take what you think might work and leave the rest as something to consider.
Believe it or not, I was a teenager who lied to her parents to justify the means as well as the end. My dad is a retired cop and my mother is a strong disciplinarian, and they both took me to task for this. Basically, I lied because I hated the structure of the boundaries they placed on me. I wanted some flexibility in my life and they were unwilling to bend. (Yes, I was the oldest child.)
Since nobody gave my parents or me a manual, we fought like cats and dogs, I still lied, I got grounded for much of my junior and senior years and we all ended up frustrated. They lost respect for me, and I was angry with them.
We have discussed some of this after the fact, and here is what we learned. I'll put my perspective first.
I was a good girl, a nice girl, I had a job and I made straight As. I hung with a crowd that was basically nice but we tended to find trouble... or trouble found us. Not horribly BAD trouble, but trouble nonetheless. I think if my parents had let me make a few mistakes to learn from them, I would have quickly seen their rules as protective rather than stringent.
My parents both grew up in the 1950s--the time of Elvis and teenage rebellion. They were the teens, and they knew what kids were doing. I had the only parents in my group of friends who KNEW the score... and it pissed me off. They had friends who lost lives or made life altering choices that were tragic, and they did not want to see me fall into the same trap. They cared about what happened to me and my friends, and their rules reflected their intolerance for diversion.
So I would tell them I was going to the movies when I was actually attending an unsupervised party with drinking. Inevitably, the cops would be called to the party and my ass was grass... which was pretty typical for me. I managed to escape some of the time, but I was pretty much always at the wrong place at the wrong time.
They caught me redhanded. And when I was dragged to the living room for THE TALK, each round would begin with the following statement: "We caught you redhanded and you better not lie, or the punishment will be twice as bad." A few of the times, I did lie (did I think they were stupid?) And the punishment reflected the lie more than the crime.
What I've learned from this is that lying is a boundary for sure. But being on the opposite side, why is lying preferable to telling the truth? What makes the person fear honesty?
I was held to a standard that existed merely because of fear. My parents lumped me into a group of people who had committed their crimes, and I was not permitted a say in the process. I really wish my parents had said, "Bets, we'll let you do it your way for now. But if it requires modification due to poor choices, we WILL step in."
Your H? I realize he's not a child. And chances are his upbringing is why he lies. The sins of the parents made this a preference. I found what helped me stay honest with my parents was when they told me what goods they had on me...
Now it might seem awfully controlling to a spouse. But you can mention in the convo that because of the past history of lies, you no longer find credibility with them. Let them know that they are working with distrust sitting in between you. And make doggone sure that you don't react like an angry parent when you hear what you don't want to hear.
As a result of my own past in lying, I am very different with D10. I consistently tell her that I might not like some of her choices, and if I don't, I'm allowed to feel that way. But unless it's catastrophic, I work very hard at biting my tongue. There are cases when she senses my disapproval and comes unglued. That is a typical reaction stemming from guilt. I usually find that she feels worse about what happened than I do, and we talk about the process.
She's growing up to be a nice person. I hope the communication helps on that score. My mom has commented to me that she is very pleased at how well we work with each other. I know my mom wishes we could have had that R when I was growing up. But our dynamics were different and I do a whole lot more reading in the self help arena.
Let's start the dialogue with a question. Joanne, why do you think your H lies?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: Let's start the dialogue with a question. Joanne, why do you think your H lies?
Firstly I think he has been lieing all his life and he now doesn't know the difference. I beieve no one has ever laid down any boundaries with him and it was easier just to walk(run) away.
Secondly it is my belief and its only an ASSumption is that if he tells the truth it will hurt me and then I might just walk away from him. In other words "I will hurt you first before you can hurt me" I suppose as you said
Of course this is poppycock. Even the smallest lie can hurt more than telling the truth even when the truth will hurt. Doesn't he realise that I will find out as I always have or is there no rational thinking when it comes to lieing.
So how do you lay down the boundaries without sounding like an angry parent and stop the WAS fear honesty?
Always questioning???
Not always sad!!!
Joanne
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is to not stop questioning. Albert Einstein
Well, I can only speak for myself on how I would handle lies... from my kids OR my H. And the fact is, there isn't one set way to handle any of the issues. The crimes and the liars are all different, as are their motivations and circumstances.
Are they sins of omission or outright lies? Are they avoidance techniques or fabrications?
I'm more concerned on what's driving this discussion, sweetie. Why not put an example out here for dissection?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Okay, Pen. I'm ready to spill part of my story. So here goes.
As many of you know, last Monday marked 18 months since Mr. Wonderful's big move east to his apartment. For the better part of six months, we've been having R talks where I've asked for what I wanted: a decision.
He's promised me an answer "soon" and then fallen short of his promise. With a lot of prayer and guidance, I got myself to a place where I was willing to give myself permission to get what I wanted at any cost.
I've been accused of having poor timing for requesting information before his vacations, so I decided to change that perception. He was on vacation all last week and I gave myself permission to broach the subject whenever I felt ready... after he returned.
Before I begin my ramblings, I will mention that Mr. Wonderful and his brother went on a 4 day golf trip with work buddies (BIL used to work for the same company and knows many of the players). I invited them over for breakfast yesterday, as I had spoken with BIL last weekend and he indicated that he wanted to see me and the girls before catching his flight home.
I was a little surprised to get a phone call on Friday from Mr. W. He was on the 3rd hole and assumed I had been trying to reach him on cell? But told me apologetically that he was having trouble getting a signal and wanted to call and say hello.
I was a bit stunned, as calling to check in while out of town has always been the source of a standoff between the 2 of us. I like hearing from him, and he feels controlled. I dropped that rope after he left, and I guess he's thought about it some.
We had a nice breakfast (I am a good cook, so this was something that was appreciated by them), and then they took off. The girls and I headed to the pool. We got home before dinner and a few minutes after I walked in, the phone rang. It was Mr. W.
He thanked me for the great breakfast and then proceeded to tell me all about his trip. I was less than enthusiastic, given my own thought processes... and since I was in a dripping wet bathing suit freezing my tail off in the A/C, I was motivated to hang up.
He seemed a little sad at my desire to end the call.
After dinner, I decided I would call him back to discuss what my plans were. It went right to voicemail, so I left a message that we needed to discuss something very important when he got a few minutes to talk. Then I walked downstairs and told D10 that I planned on telling her dad I was filing for D.
She had tears brimming her eyes and told me, "Mom, I'm going to be angry with you for a little while if you do, but I do understand." We discussed the need for peaceful living in our lives and she ultimately gave me her blessing... which was nice but not necessary.
This morning, I received a call from him. He told me that he was still having problems with his cell (he had been on with the provider twice at the house during breakfast yesterday, so I know this to be true) and had just received my voicemail. He indicated his door was shut and asked if we could talk?
I mentioned that my topic for discussion wasn't going to be pleasant, but he surprised me by telling me to proceed.
I began, "I think it's time we discussed how to make this separation more permanent. I need some peace and I've discussed this with D10, and she's sad but okay.
The fact is, I'm tired of thinking about you. About us. And I can no longer tell D10 to have hope for us reuniting when I feel none. So it's time to come to terms with what needs to happen."
He seemed not to be affected by my statement at all, nor did he react. He spoke definitively and with purpose.
"Betsey, I spent the entire week devoted to thinking about us last week."
I remained calm and neutral and silent.
He spoke again, with more conviction. "Is it possible for us to discuss this some more? Later this afternoon? Later this week? Any time in between?"
I asked why...
"Well, I thought about you the entire time I was gone. Including the golf course. (I guess I'm usually a verboten thought process while swinging a club?) I took a look around me, and I really can't see myself pretending that those guys are family."
Pause.
"I was in bed by 10:30 every night, which you know is not typical for me. I took a lot of flak from them for being a party pooper, but the fact is, I was tired, and I wanted to think some more."
Okay, now I'm interested... thinking might be good?
"A day into the trip, I realized that I missed you girls. Really missed all of you. Really miss YOU. And I don't see myself living like this much longer."
Then I think what I originally said sunk in.
MW: "Did you say you discussed this with D10?"
Me: "Yes. K, I've been counseling her 3-4x per week and we are both exhausted."
MW: "I understand. I really need to sit down and talk with her too. Listen. Maybe we can do this tonight, hoping she will still come over to my place?"
Me: "Well, she wanted me to talk to you about staying with me tonight. This request is not at all related to our current discussion, either. The fact is that D7 has been really awful lately, and we are both tired. She wants more time alone with me and wants to have a good snuggle with me tonight without her sister hogging me."
MW: "I'll be happy to take D7, Bets. Can I still pick up the girls so you can workout? Then we'll figure out who's going where?"
Me: "Yes, that's fine."
MW: "So, we can talk about this more? Hey, did I tell you that I played some amazing golf? That is, for me? I beat my brother every day, and you know that I've never been able to do that. I am crediting some clarity in my life for my better golf game."
Me: "Yes, we can talk about this more. "
MW: "Good, now I can call Gary and tell that [censored] to start getting his foursomes ready for the golf tournament."
Me: What in the world happened to shed light on this truth? "Okay. Next time we talk, I'll give you the update on what's happened with our tournament since you left."
So, while I'm still not sure what he plans on doing about this, I'm resolved to making a peaceful life for myself and my girls at whatever price it takes. Now he can decide if he's willing to pay the price to include us as part of his overall plan or not. And either way, I'm going to be a happy camper.
I already am.
Being at peace is highly underrated. And my girls and I are ready for the next peaceful chapter. No drama queens (or kings) need apply.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I'm gonna give some of my input on this topic...I have found that my WAS has told lies and I did not confront him all at once. I guess my plan of action was there is a "right" time for everything. So in some ways, I stewed in silence for a time being and when we were having open discussions about things, I threw things in about the lies but it didn't matter bcoz he denied it anyway or he just never commented.
I guess in my sit, my WAS didn't appear to be a liar during the good times so I took this as part of the scenario. Depending on the reason for your WAS (MLC, OW, etc...) I think plays a part in how much you "utilize" the lying. I mean, if the reason for the lies, as Betsey mentioned, are cover-ups of some sort, than the betrayal factor is different than that of someone in MLC.
I'm not sure if this is helping or not, but for me, the lies have become part of the WAS-the person he has become and not the one that I used to know. I think that if you "look" for the answers to the questions you are asking than you may wind up w/a lie as opposed to not asking at all. For example, I know that my WAS continues to lie to some extent even though I've asked for respect in that area but I've just decided that I don't ask questions any more. In the beginning it was real important for me to know what H was doing and all that, but since DBing, if I keep myself busy w/things and better myself, why do I need to know what H is doing? Avoids him lying and avoids the hurt. I guess this is one way to curb it.
Another way might be to let WAS know that you have different lives now but that you still deserve respect and dignity. Like I said, it didn't work for me but maybe it will for you.
Lies are just their way of making more of the life they are trying to live....another lie....... Tootles.......
Your latest update certainly sounds encouraging. I must admit that I thought about you on the 5th because you mentioned the 18 month anniversary on my thread. It sounds like Mr. W was not unmindful of the passage of time either.
I haven’t had much time to post for the past week but have been following the threads of others while sorting through a lot of my own feelings and issues. You seem cautiously optimistic and I think that probably best describes my feelings regarding my own sitch right now as well.
You certainly have my thoughts and prayers today. I am excited for the potential this latest conversation seems to promise.
I’ll be looking for an update soon if you and Mr. W have your discussion tonight.
) has already posted some thoughts on my thread but I would like everyone elses input.
Betsey 
