Taking a cue from you all, I declined the offer of a massage last night. LDH uses massage to get a massage for himself (I always offer to reciprocate) and of course, massage is exactly what he wants. Massage triggers a complex set of feelings for me, and when it's been 15 days since we ML, I really don't want a friggin' massage. I do yoga, thank you very much.
So I said no a couple of times and thought about asking him why he was offering a massage, did he really want one for himself, etc? Then I decided that would be too radical a change for us this week, because I do not initiate such convos late at night.
I knew he was feeling pressured to offer something he thought I would like, and that he would interpret gestures of mine as pressure, such as wearing a certain nightie, etc. So, before he came home, I made sure I was wearing a non-sexy nightie (one he says he likes a lot, though). Then I worried about the late night supper I had for him after work (I had purchased his favorite specialty beer, smoked salmon - another fave, etc.) I started thinking he might see the food as a bribe, too. So, no candles, and a very casual presentation of the food (very offhand) so that he didn't feel I was trying to lead into something. (I'm in the No Pressure phase right now). I've been in the No Pressure phase for a year, but I haven't been as aware of what constitutes "pressure" for him as I was before I came here.
So, here is what happened. He really opened up and started talking about his day, and about ideas that are very important to him, and very interesting to both of us. The only thing that comes close to being as good as sex is a really good conversation. So, while we went to bed without any physical affection (I don't even think we kissed goodnight - which was fine with me, since I am trying to avoid my own sex/desire triggers at this point) we did connect and that was really good.
Normally, I would have given in about the massage, eventually. Oh, and one more thing. A professional masseuse is coming on Friday to give him a massage, so that I can, without denying him anything, not give him his regular massages. I find it interesting, really, that I can purchase (legally) what he needs (physical touch, massage) but not what I need!
In a few days, I'll be heading into a tougher work cycle and the time of the month when I have less libido. Sometimes I think he deliberately avoids me when I'm really feeling sexy, but, maybe not (maybe it's just all-the-time avoidance, until his own sex drive kicks in, whenever that is). I think this is one difference between some HDW's and HDH. HDW's do get a respite from the sex desire thing for a few days a month - at least many do, perhaps the desire lessens a little. It never goes away for me (although I know there are a bunch of things I can do to diminish my interest in sex, many of which involve turning my attention from being/looking sexy to reading huge thick books on European prehistory or archaeology).
I have been posed to do this (read history rather than wear lipstick, ), but then, I don't get the nice flirtatious looks from the guys at the gas station and the neighbor across the street. LOL (and sigh). Also, it's a slippery slope. If I start the European history book (which actually, I plan to do), I'll gradually lose my own drive, and by next month, I'll have less interest. Then, I won't need this board (jk).
Any advice on this? Anyone done that? Does it help if the HD partner does what s/he can to dampen their own drive?
It's hard for me to relate to the idea of purposely trying to lower your sex drive. I have seen other posts of that nature here( people who want to take meds to lower their drive) and it upsets me. Personally, I have come from a place of low desire and never want to go back there again. No matter what impact my sexuality has on my relationship, I never want to return to feeling sexless, even for a short period of time; having a high desire, and doing what it takes to maintain it, makes me feel alive, happy and complete as a person. I think this shows in my radiance and energy in the world, and if H can't handle it because it's "too much pressure" then that is his problem. I think you should do whatever it takes to feel good as a person and to keep your spirit going. If your sexuality has a compulsive, destructive edge to it, then I would have some concerns...otherwise, enjoy your vitality and use that zest in a positive way to make changes in the relationship. I like your idea of setting boundaries; in much the same way, I have told my lower desire H what it is I need at a minimum to keep our relationship going. He was only able to meet me at this place when he saw I how very serious I was, to the point of talking about ending the marriage...that was the kick he needed to get over his extremely stubborn attitude. Right now I am no longer starving...just hungry,lol...and our meals could use some spice, but that's another story. J
SBH, On the subject of pressure... You have been pussy footing around for years trying to reduce pressure as have I but I am now taking a different approach. Just think about it. What actually is this "pressure"? It is your expressions of LOVE. When you look at it in that way you can see there is no reason why you should not be able to express your love for your H. Taking this view, I have started to apply MORE "pressure" to force my LDW to confront her fears and deal with them. At the same time I am making it clear to her that I am dealing with my own problems af anger and frustration through self-soothing etc. My W and probably your H has a lack of confidence about their bodies and sexuality that reinforces their LD and causes them to avoid it at all cost. To try and give more confidence and desensitise her to the whole subject and try to reduce her inhibitions I now do what I never dared to do before and get into bed naked, hug her and say "Let's talk about sex" (it's pressure but not as much as "Lets make love"). She never says much but I always tell her how much I love her etc. She is getting used to hearing the word "sex" that caused her to shiver with fear not long ago. As time passes I intend to say more about what I would like from our relationship and hopefully she will listen (and even take action) rather than freeze up. One other thing. Do you give too much attention? My desire is so high that it is nearly impossible for me not to touch and cuddle her whenever she is nearby. This gets overwhelming and annoying to the LD so I try to hold back a bit and reduce the quantity of low quality affection so the affection she does get is higher quality and more welcome. SD
SBH, On the subject of pressure... You have been pussy footing around for years trying to reduce pressure as have I but I am now taking a different approach. Just think about it. What actually is this "pressure"? It is your expressions of LOVE. When you look at it in that way you can see there is no reason why you should not be able to express your love for your H. Taking this view, I have started to apply MORE "pressure" to force my LDW to confront her fears and deal with them. At the same time I am making it clear to her that I am dealing with my own problems af anger and frustration through self-soothing etc. My W and probably your H has a lack of confidence about their bodies and sexuality that reinforces their LD and causes them to avoid it at all cost. To try and give more confidence and desensitise her to the whole subject and try to reduce her inhibitions I now do what I never dared to do before and get into bed naked, hug her and say "Let's talk about sex" (it's pressure but not as much as "Lets make love"). She never says much but I always tell her how much I love her etc. She is getting used to hearing the word "sex" that caused her to shiver with fear not long ago. As time passes I intend to say more about what I would like from our relationship and hopefully she will listen (and even take action) rather than freeze up. One other thing. Do you give too much attention? My desire is so high that it is nearly impossible for me not to touch and cuddle her whenever she is nearby. This gets overwhelming and annoying to the LD so I try to hold back a bit and reduce the quantity of low quality affection so the affection she does get is higher quality and more welcome. SD
SBH, On the subject of pressure... You have been pussy footing around for years trying to reduce pressure as have I but I am now taking a different approach. Just think about it. What actually is this "pressure"? It is your expressions of LOVE. When you look at it in that way you can see there is no reason why you should not be able to express your love for your H. Taking this view, I have started to apply MORE "pressure" to force my LDW to confront her fears and deal with them. At the same time I am making it clear to her that I am dealing with my own problems af anger and frustration through self-soothing etc. My W and probably your H has a lack of confidence about their bodies and sexuality that reinforces their LD and causes them to avoid it at all cost. To try and give more confidence and desensitise her to the whole subject and try to reduce her inhibitions I now do what I never dared to do before and get into bed naked, hug her and say "Let's talk about sex" (it's pressure but not as much as "Lets make love"). She never says much but I always tell her how much I love her etc. She is getting used to hearing the word "sex" that caused her to shiver with fear not long ago. As time passes I intend to say more about what I would like from our relationship and hopefully she will listen (and even take action) rather than freeze up. One other thing. Do you give too much attention? My desire is so high that it is nearly impossible for me not to touch and cuddle her whenever she is nearby. This gets overwhelming and annoying to the LD so I try to hold back a bit and reduce the quantity of low quality affection so the affection she does get is higher quality and more welcome. SD
SBH, On the subject of pressure... You have been pussy footing around for years trying to reduce pressure as have I but I am now taking a different approach. Just think about it. What actually is this "pressure"? It is your expressions of LOVE. When you look at it in that way you can see there is no reason why you should not be able to express your love for your H. Taking this view, I have started to apply MORE "pressure" to force my LDW to confront her fears and deal with them. At the same time I am making it clear to her that I am dealing with my own problems af anger and frustration through self-soothing etc. My W and probably your H has a lack of confidence about their bodies and sexuality that reinforces their LD and causes them to avoid it at all cost. To try and give more confidence and desensitise her to the whole subject and try to reduce her inhibitions I now do what I never dared to do before and get into bed naked, hug her and say "Let's talk about sex" (it's pressure but not as much as "Lets make love"). She never says much but I always tell her how much I love her etc. She is getting used to hearing the word "sex" that caused her to shiver with fear not long ago. As time passes I intend to say more about what I would like from our relationship and hopefully she will listen (and even take action) rather than freeze up. One other thing. Do you give too much attention? My desire is so high that it is nearly impossible for me not to touch and cuddle her whenever she is nearby. This gets overwhelming and annoying to the LD so I try to hold back a bit and reduce the quantity of low quality affection so the affection she does get is higher quality and more welcome. SD
I enjoyed reading your post, SD, but heck, three times?
You know, although you can call your pressure on her an expression of love, I bet she still would prefer that you not do that. Imagine that your wife's "expression of love" was kicking you in the crotch. She felt love for you, and kicked. You're doubled over, in pain, and she says, "that's just how I show my love for you, honey." You ask her to stop doing it.
Understand that I am not advocating "no pressure." As you know, I've tried the no pressure campaign before with dismal results. But I know that if my W said that I was pressuring her and I answered with "but it's just an expression of my love for you," it wouldn't fly.
Of course, that's HER problem, not mine. Like you, I'll still bring up the subject of sex, touch her, etc. I guess the difference is that, unlike a kick in the crotch, our expressions of love are a bit more reasonable and expected.
Sorry...I didn't mean this as a criticism of you, but it kind of sounds like that. I'm confused this morning. AtlDave's father's death is bouncing around inside my brain.
Thanks, all, for your responses. Everything I read here is helpful.
InHerJourney, of course your post made me stop and think. I could have written the first part, myself, a couple of years ago. I'm so demoralized at this point, it sort of shocked me to hear someone writing to me, pointing out how crazy I'd be to give up sexuality altogether.
Okay, so I figured out that I need to completely withdraw from thinking about sex with my husband, and not necessarily sex-in-general. Well, I'm trying to diminish the whole issue in my mind (find hobbies, etc.) but not all the way down to zero. So I did go ahead and put the sexy undies on today - but now I'm careful to dress in a room by myself, he'll never know. I can still feel sexy etc., even if I'm working on not pressuring LDH.
And the pressure thing. Jeez. In the past three days, I've realized that - whether he knows it or not (and I do not think he does), I've tailored SO MANY BEHAVIORS toward him so that I might increase my chances of sexual closeness. I'm sure you all know what I mean. But I'm reeling from realizing just how much this whole issue has pervaded my daily life, every little thing I do. Don't upset him. Don't criticize him. Give him a certain number of compliments daily. Give him all the cuddling/massage he wants. Buy him presents, etc. Of course, I usually love doing all these things for him, anyway (as part of a loving relationship) but I'm realizing that in the back of my mind, especially when the relationship is sexually dry, I'm hoping and hoping to increase my chances. To go back to doing these things just because is my goal.
In order for me to do that, I simply have to tell myself "no sex" for awhile. Believe it or not, reading about some of you who've gone months or years without it, encourages me (I can't imagine, but I may be about to find out).
The reason for the "no sex" (not necessarily "no sexy feelings inside") is that it's time he really understood how this feels to me. He is a LDH, not a NDH. He definitely has a sex drive, no question about it. It's just much lower than mine. It's lower than anyone else's I know personally, but not as low as some of the spouses described on this BB. I have tried (mostly unconsciously) the no pressure thing for a couple of years (you might say I was trying behavioral bribes, though, without knowing it). It's been complicated. Occasionally, he'll say, "Gee, if you would just wear some sexy lingerie, I'd sure appreciate it." So I would, and then, sometimes he'd respond and sometimes he wouldn't. The longest he's gone without asking for sex in some direct way is about 3 weeks. So, in 3 or 4 weeks, we'll see what happens. That doesn't sound that long - although three days ago, it sure did.
InHerJourney, I also want to say I admire the fact that you could actually get to the point where you could talk/negotiate with your H, even though I also think it sounds abysmal to have to do it. I figured out quite awhile back that once a week is just fine with me, and a compromise between me and the LDH, but when it drops below once a week - and stays that way for awhile, I am depressed, resentful, miserable, and, eventually, obsessed with what to do about it. Right now, I can't imagine telling my H that he has to do it weekly or else (even if I feel that way). Usually, the sex we have is spontaneous and we both deeply desire it, and it is incredibly incredibly satisfying. If I had sex every week but it felt negotiated, then it would be less satisfying (and more like MB for me) and I'm trying to figure out if that would work. Of course, I'm simply imagining how it would be. For all I know, putting him on a schedule would be okay with him! He wants to please me, right now he can tell I'm depressed and this morning he said, "I know I've had something to do with it," but claims he can't imagine what.
The fact that he can't imagine what, floors me. The past few days contained events that brought this whole thing to a head, and he simply can't see it. Doesn't see it. Won't see it.
InHerJourney, can you tell me more about how you negotiated with your husband? How long between bringing the problem up and getting to the negotiation? Was there a lot of anger and resentment? I'd guess that you probably spent some time trying to figure out WHY his SD was low, etc. Is there a reason that you know of? Or did you give up even trying to figure it out?
I am scared about turning relatively sexless, even for a short time, but it seems the only solution to this incredible frustration I have right now. I need to keep posting on this board in order not to lose track of why I'm doing it - and to make sure someone points out to me how stupid it is to do it.
SuperDave, I'm trying to get my mind around this pressure/love thing as well. It's been hard for me to see how my making a nice dinner and lighting candles is "pressure." What am I supposed to do, stop doing all the little loving things I've done, because they're "pressure"? I really have no idea exactly which of my behaviors he sees as pressure (I only know some of them: dressing up sexy in the evening, planning getaway vacations and expecting sex during them (which I have expected in the past), making references to sexy behaviors and what I'd like to do with him - these are all "pressure" to him). But I think he is also getting anxious about the dinners and candles. On the other hand, massage is never pressure to him (probably because he senses that to me, massage is a thoroughly non-erotic way of touching, I have training in therapeutic massage and it is inevitable that it's more like a nurse-patient thing to me than anything remotely erotic - in fact, giving him a massage is an erotic turn-off to me).
My H would thrive on more affection and would, I believe, never have sex with me if I would simply cuddle all the time. I have no proof of that statement, that's how it seems though. Consequently, I really don't like cuddling with him right now. I'm trying very very hard, though, to continue being affectionate with him (we just had a nice hug before he left for the hardware store) even though I feel sad every time he touches me. (This is a new thing, hopefully will go away).
Hairdog, the thing is: most of the "pressure" items that Dave and I are mentioning are not even remotely like kicking someone. I mean, if a person kicks someone to express love, they're disturbed. Even my LDH would agree that he would not want me to stop fixing nice dinners, dressing nicely, etc., as a result of his feeling pressure. In other words, my H has no clue what he wants. (He sure knows what he doesn't want!) I did want to say, Hairdog, that you've helped me see WHY I'm working on a no pressure campaign. I don't expect "results," I just need the information - about myself, my own drives, and about him. I need to know what each of us considers pressure and why we're even bothering to do certain things if one or both of us is experiencing it as if it were a kick in the groin.
I also need to know what direction this is all going in. Have we managed to ML 2-3 times a month for most of our relationship ONLY because I've bartered/pressured for it??? If so, I don't want any more of that sex - I don't care how good it is at the time. On another thread, someone mentioned how great the sex was with a total stranger whom he met in a hotel room simply to have sex with. Perhaps the reason I have found the sex so good in the past is simply because it was sex! Who knows? This is the only R I've ever enjoyed sex within (but I've only had two sexual partners in my whole life, so what do I know?)
And what do I do about his seductive behaviors? He doesn't intend them that way AT ALL, but he does various things I find arousing (some of them he simply couldn't help doing - like sitting there looking cute), and I almost have to ignore him altogether to not experience those cues. And I'm really really tired of experiencing those arousal feelings and having it go absolutely nowhere. (It's only been 18 days, but at this point in our little drama, I usually would have come on so strong that he would almost have to do me - he says he's always glad afterward, but you know what? I'm tired of this routine. I want him to want me and work to have me, not the other way around. Period). I probably sound like a complete bitch. As I understand it, though, after reading about the feelings of LD spouses, my desire to have him want me may be completely unrealistic.
Gotta stop, feel like my head is going to explode. Since these issues came up and I've visited these boards, I find I'm not sleeping well, and not able to put up such a great facade as I usually do. Indeed, I'm beginning to think my insomnia problem in general (which is about 2 years old) is linked to the decline in our sex life (from once a week to 2-3 times a month to maybe 1-2 times a month some months).
Quote: I've realized that - whether he knows it or not (and I do not think he does), I've tailored SO MANY BEHAVIORS toward him so that I might increase my chances of sexual closeness. I'm sure you all know what I mean. But I'm reeling from realizing just how much this whole issue has pervaded my daily life, every little thing I do. Don't upset him. Don't criticize him. Give him a certain number of compliments daily. Give him all the cuddling/massage he wants. Buy him presents, etc. Of course, I usually love doing all these things for him, anyway (as part of a loving relationship) but I'm realizing that in the back of my mind, especially when the relationship is sexually dry, I'm hoping and hoping to increase my chances.
That’s my life in a nutshell. Amazingly enough, I never realized it until just recently. I’ve only been aware of it since stumbling across SSM and reading it. It really opened my eyes to a lot of things that have been going on in my M for years.
It's a hard habit to break. But you've got company.
InHerJourney, can you tell me more about how you negotiated with your husband? How long between bringing the problem up and getting to the negotiation? Was there a lot of anger and resentment? I'd guess that you probably spent some time trying to figure out WHY his SD was low, etc. Is there a reason that you know of? Or did you give up even trying to figure it out?
Hi SBH, It is really an amazing thing that at my peak of sexuality I have a husband with little desire. I have learned that trying to analyze it to death really doesn't get me too far. Is he angry, resentful, stubborn, scared, pressured....I could speculate all day and in the end, it makes no difference. For some time I have tried to find the right combination to unlock his pysche, much like in the movie Groundhog Day, but somehow I kept awakening to the same nightmare. Changing the focus to me and what my needs are, and being strong in asserting those needs, has helped the most. It has been a slow process; first he realized we have to somehow jump-start our sex life if we want the marriage to continue, and then he began to see that some of the things I wanted were not the rantings of a sexually obsessed lunatic, but rather were ways to bring us closer and to create more harmony. Date nite was a way for us to confront the sex issue on a regular basis...we both have a talent for avoidance, so this "forced" the issue. From there, we were able to branch out to spontaneous sex. You are already having fulfilling, spontaneous sex so you are in a much better place than we were. Right now I am taking things day to day and trying to not get too frustrated; sometimes I focus on the fact that there are Americans being beheaded overseas while I complain about my marriage, and that puts it in perspective. But, I do know that I am entitled to my own happiness, so you'll see a lot more b**ching from me here. J
So, while we went to bed without any physical affection (I don't even think we kissed goodnight - which was fine with me, since I am trying to avoid my own sex/desire triggers at this point) we did connect and that was really good.
), but then, I don't get the nice flirtatious looks from the guys at the gas station and the neighbor across the street. LOL (and sigh). Also, it's a slippery slope. If I start the European history book (which actually, I plan to do), I'll gradually lose my own drive, and by next month, I'll have less interest. Then, I won't need this board (jk).
