thanks holdingon for your concern, i am really doing quite well, albeit dealing with more growth
Quote: And I don't know that I agree that he does not forgive you if you do not forgive others, but I could be wrong about that.
matthew 6:14, 15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
but i do have to thank you for this and the OW would always have that power over him, that she knew something that you did not know - something i never considered and something that is very much a factor in this...
At the risk of detracting from this very intriguing dialogue, I want to do a bit of journaling myself. Just because I need to have a place to work from shortly.
So, last night I traded in my beloved Expedition for a brand new vehicle! Those of you who have read my stuff from the early days know that 5 years ago, I purchased my Expedition on one of my crazymaking bouts. It created LOTS of turmoil between me and Mr. Wonderful, and I think we are finally healing some of these wounds.
He phoned me yesterday and left me a VM to tell me that he and the girls were eating dinner at Friday's and that he would bring D10 home to hang out with me for the night, and that he would take D7 for some good bonding time with her. I rang him back and asked if I could pick D10 up at the restaurant so she could come play "Let's Make A Deal" with me.
He didn't quite understand until D10 piped up in the background, "Dad! Mom has been thinking about buying a new car! I want to go!"
On my way to the restaurant, some past feelings flooded my thoughts. I walked in, found them and sat down. The girls were elated to see me and Mr. Wonderful said he had originally thought a stranger sat down because he didn't recognize my skinny self...
Anyway, I looked him in the eye and spoke, "K, I can't help but bring back the past and I want you to know that I'm not buying this car to make any issues between us. The simple fact is that the gas prices are killing me, and it's time to make a switch."
He said, "Honestly, Bets, I've been wondering when you were going to get to that point. I'm surprised you lasted this long. I have to say, I'm surprised because I really thought you would have done this a year ago. But this decision is yours and I support it."
Off we went. On my way home (late), my cell rang and it was him. I answered to a pretty excited man! "Hey! Are you driving your new thing home?" I laughed and said yes and he asked me to tell him all about it.
This morning, I was VERY surprised to hear the garage door open bright and early--and it wasn't opened by me or D10. Mr. W. came barging in the door with D7's stuff and said, "Wow, that is THE cutest little thing I've ever seen!"
I got to work and had to take care of some of the administrative details, but got a call from him a little while ago. Ironically, I was just about to call him to discuss some of the stuff I had been processing over the past 24 hours.
He told me he wants to come over and drive my thing (calling a car a thing is a joke between us and my friends here at work). I told him to come by when he wants to take it for a spin. Then I segued into some thoughts on the past...
I told him that I wanted to share some of my own fears, and was surprised when he told me he wanted to listen. I let him know that my childhood was full of perceptions where my mother (who was a stay-at-home mom) would ask my dad for money. If we had it, she got it. If we didn't, she didn't. I saw this not from a practical perception, but one of unfairness.
He, on the other hand, grew up with a mother who controlled ALL the money.
Hence, we both came to our M with some significantly different perceptions and experiences. He didn't want the same (which is what he got), and neither did I--but I was stronger and meaner and I got my way!
I mentioned that what I was sharing was not truth or even reality, but my perception. He said he understood. I continued by telling him about a convo that took place very early in our M. One that I was going to bring up, not as a source of finger pointing but for him to understand how that tied to my fears and views.
When we first moved to CO from CA, I was unemployed. I was looking for a job, but during my sabbattical, I opted to decorate our new house. I was a little stunned one evening when he got home from work, took a look around the family room and scowled, saying, "Betsey, quit spending all my money!"
Trigger: childhood fear. This money is not mine. Shame. After I got my job (which I still have), I vowed to myself never to be put in a position of asking to spend money ever again.
He was quiet for a moment and said, "Bets, I would NEVER deny you money or access to it if you explained things."
I got a bit choked up and said, "K, I realize this now. But at the time until now, I didn't understand that dynamic. I do now.
He thought for another minute and said, "Bets, all I ever wanted from you was to be included in your plans. I wanted the chance to research purchases with you. Not around you. And not for the purpose of exerting male control over you.
For the record, I was angry with you about the Expedition for a long time and for a lot of reasons. They represent things that had bothered me about our interactions throughout our M. I really and truly have forgiven you for that. For the record, I am not at all unhappy that you have sold it and have purchased another vehicle."
I thanked him for that statement. And he continued....
"Our money issues were not of money or things, but of power and control. I wish I knew how you felt about this earlier. We could have talked this out without all the crap."
I commented, "Well, I didn't get a chance to figure this out until now. It took for me to buy a new car to really feel the shame in full force for excluding you in such a big decision. I hope that all my vehicle purchases from here on out are not saddled with these emotions."
MW: "Well, I didn't really even have an issue with the terms of the purchase, Bets. But the fact is that you didn't even go looking at vehicles--at least not with me--and did absolutely NO research. I thought you were being impulsive and foolish and selfish."
Me: "I know you thought that. I also know it looked that way to you. I didn't mean for you to feel that. The sad truth is that I DID want that truck, and I doubt very seriously I would have taken it slower had you asked me. I was feeling very fearful back then, and I really didn't want to hear you tell me I couldn't have it."
MW: Sort of sad and sober. "I have never denied you an opinion on anything, Bets. Why would you think this?"
Me: "I know you haven't. But remember, this was a fear of mine. It doesn't mean it was rational or useful. It just was. And remember I said this is not a reflection of you, your values, your words or your actions. It was a childhood based fear of mine."
MW: "I'm sorry."
Me: "I'm sorry too. I never meant to hurt you by my actions."
MW: "I know that. And now I understand how you got where you did. Hey, I have 2 people in my office and my phone is ringing. Is this a good time to quit?"
I laughed and said yes.
So he just called me back--again, chipper. "Hey, it's me! Do you need to talk about this some more? If so, I have some time now."
Me: Wow!!!! Who would have thought? "Well, not really."
MW: "Well, it sure seemed to upset you so I want to make sure you don't go away thinking I didn't care enough to finish."
Me: "Uh, no. I didn't think that. I just thought you had to work since you do have a job... I guess I just wanted you to know that I know that money=power and power=control. I had lots of control issues because of the turmoil in my life, which has always been present. It made me feel better."
MW: "Maybe you should have become a scientist and put the chaos theory to work for you?"
Me: "Don't you think I already did a good unpaid job of that?"
MW: "Yes."
Me: "And I no longer want to be that person. I no longer want chaos to rule my world. I don't need the control because I'm not afraid anymore. All I wanted was something I felt I couldn't get."
MW: NOW getting uncomfortable. "Bueno. This is all in the past, Bets."
Me: "No, not bueno. I don't want to rehash the past just for the sake of doing it, but to learn from it so I don't feel I need to make the same mistakes again."
MW: "I hear ya. Hey, can I switch the subject now? I want to tell you about the most stupid gag gifts I got for Gary last night... I got them all at Spencer's...."
And so it went.
I feel I should point out the positives here:
1. He listened and validated. 2. He actively participated in this conversation. 3. He acted caring. 4. He explained his POV without attacking mine. 5. He discussed his feelings in the past and present. 6. He called me back to see if we needed to finish anything.
That's it from my neck of the woods. Carry on, folks!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: someone whose opinion i value very highly recently told me that my husband confessing to me after everything was completely over and done with was a complete act of selfishness on his part - this relieved HIM of all his guilt and feelings of pain but laid upon all those feelings on to an unsuspecting innocent person
That is a tight rope to walk. Are you "telling" so you can ask forgiveness, or are you "telling" to relieve your conscience? If it is forgiveness for oneself that is needed, one does not need to pour their guilt onto another. It is possible to forgive without causing additional pain.
It sounds like your H ,as well as mine, confessed to relieve themselves of their guilt, not because they were truly sorry for their actions and wanted forgiveness.
Betsey - the suspense is killing me - what car did you buy????
Seriously, what a great conversation! I doubt many "happily married" people ever have interactions on the level the two of you seem to be having regularly now. Considerate, validating, really listening to what the other is saying, and explaining emotions and fears in a positive and non-accusatory way. This is just awesome, and if you are able to do this now, just imagine to what lofty hights your marriage can climb.
Quote: It sounds like your H ,as well as mine, confessed to relieve themselves of their guilt, not because they were truly sorry for their actions and wanted forgiveness.
ouch - i have often thought of this - and the thoughts are not pretty
Well, I used to tell people, "My next car is a Jaguar." I had just not planned on buying a new car this early in the game to prove me wrong. So my next car will be the Jag... or the Audi TT... or the BMW Z4... or the Saab turbo convertible...
But, since I live in Denver and have to deal with occasional snow, I simply can't give up a 4WD. Plus, having the Expedition got me a taste of sitting up high, which I like a whole lot. So I bought less car with some different amenities in the 2005 Ford Escape, Limited edition (the car had just been delivered yesterday morning, and I bought my 2nd vehicle off the showroom floor ).
My sister and BIL are both employees and I get a fantastic savings through them. With Mr. Wonderful also having a Big 3 discount, I have lots of options.
It's way cute, red and sporty. Just like my first car. Ah, a 1974 Triumph Spitfire convertible. With more seats. Now, if I could just get rid of these damn kids...
I wasn't looking for Mr. Wonderful to be as receptive to the discussion as he was. I guess he surprised me? And I haven't been surprised in awhile, so this is good news...
Now, if I'm still here in 4 years and discussing my 2009 Jaguar, someone please shoot me?
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
While I can see the value in pointing out your positives in this conversation... well, geez, wasn't it kind of overkill? Of course I am ribbing you here a bit-- that whole conversation was one giant positive. GO YOU is right!
if I were American, I'd say "great car!" but being European (when forced to chose between honesty and good manners, we always choose the former) - I have to say I don't like it. I don't like any of your American truck-ish SUV-ish monster cars, even in their "baby version", which this seems to be. At the very least, tell me it has a manual transmission, will you??? *grin*
Seriously, I'm very happy YOU like it (after all, that's what matters!), and I must say I quite understand about the Jaguar. My next car is a Jaguar, too.
I've outgrown my need to control the transmission of my vehicles. So no, I don't do manual transmissions anymore. My American buddies will tell you how much manuals SUCK in our traffic.
What can we say? We have wide open spaces and we like big stuff! I have owned "roller skate" vehicles as well as big ones. I like them all (especially convertibles). But the older I get, the more I value being comfortable and enjoying the driving experience when I can. Basically, commuting sucks. And we don't have public transportation like you do in Europe.
Girl, you can look around and just appreciate the differences between our cultures without fearing them! And I'll tell you straight up that I feel a whole lot safer in my SUV (either of them) than I would in a Mini Cooper or VW bug... not that they aren't darned cute and fuel efficient and fun.
Just looking mean enough behind the wheel ain't enough here. You have to have the goods to deliver the message. Maybe I should have bought a Hummer, complete with the guns....
Just kidding!!!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Betsey 
