Hey all, I hate to type so I will try to respond as easily as I can.
Bets, You have a lot of good comments. I don't know how to put in Qoutes so I want attempt to. My wife left me to be with OM period. No she may not have thought about my feelings and still doesn't. However when you are married every decision you make affects both of you. So yes They don't think about you some. They think I don't want to be with the person anymore. I have someone better now that can give me what I want. My H will be ok one day, but I will be happy as soon as I leave.
I can say with almost 100% certainty that if she did not have OM she would not have left. She almost changed her mind anyway. She got mad at me and leased a house the next day. just like she filed for D the next after I confronted her about catching her and OM.
She does things on impulse and this was no different. The funny thing is she would not buy clothes or cars on impulse but she will end a relationship on one.
You were almost a WAW, but you decided to stay and save your M. Your H now has a second chance. I don't get a second chance because life is better without me. So yes it is a little about me.
gd1 You had valid points too. I believe we all want to love and be loved and I think we need basic fundamentals to be happy also. I know I am much happier when I have someone ZI love and they love me.
If it is so easy to be truly happy by ourselves , then why are all of us trying bring our S back and mess up that happiness. So yes we were all happier with our S. I will admit I am not happy. I'm not sure I can be truly happy witout my love. I ws single for 8 years after my first M and I was content with what I had but not happy.
I think we can be content, but be unfulfilled and lonely.
i don't think I ask for much, just to prove how much I love my W and share that love with her.
Bets Never will your advice upset or hurt me. You are a true friend and I value your insights.I'm just trying to be honest with myself.
Quote: I don't want this post to be mean and I am glad you and your H are happy. This is just a touchy subject to me. Please forgive me if I offended you or made you mad it was not my intention. You wanted to know about the LBS mind so here it is.
Hi Randy,
Your post wasn’t mean, nor did it offend me. I didn’t come here for a pat on the back or a round of applause – this would hardly be the place for it, don’t you think? I came because I knew I’d never find any peace within myself if I didn’t confront the feelings of remorse that were clawing at me like some feral creature. I wanted to be able to forgive myself, but in order to do so, I first had to learn what it is a LBS goes through, so I am grateful for your perspective.
And now for something I’ve been saving until tonight:
Quote: Well, Pen. You certainly have done it now! You did to me what I have been (unsuccessfully) doing to others. You made me think. You made me think hard and long. You made me think very uncomfortable thoughts. Thank you. I suppose I could choose to run from it al, but I decided that I really do need to get all of this stuff off of me once and for all.
Pamela,
I just wanted to say I’ve thought about this post all day today and much of yesterday, and it has opened a number of new perspectives for me. So first of all, thank you very much, both for your insights, and your precise analysis.
Quote: First of all, I have made it a point to never say what I would do in a certain situation. I can think all the valiant thoughts I want, but when it comes right down to it, I don’t really know what I will do in a sitch until I am faced with it. I will even go so far to say that it annoys the hell out of me when people try to tell me what they would do if they were me. Face it, no one knows until it happens.
That is something I have learned as well. I’ve done things I thought I would “never” do, and like you have come to realize that one will only truly know one’s choices when one is on the inside of any given situation. Everything else is guesswork and conjecture. I’m a much less judgemental person as a result of this, which I hope is the first step on that long road towards humility.
Quote: So, I totally understand where you are coming from. We are long past the point of right or wrong. I understand your guilt- but really, where is that guilt going to get you? You could end your current relationship based on that guilt, but for what? What purpose would it serve other than to create a lot more hurt? I say this not for your benefit, but really for all of those reading that do not understand any of this.
True again – but I did need to hear it spoken aloud. Thanks again.
Quote: Your H’s first relationship ended because he chose for it to. No one will probably ever truly understand the reasons, maybe not even him. We will also never know if that relationship could have been saved. Since it wasn’t, it is easy to sit and assign blame and say that it could. The issue here is that he felt that it couldn’t. Again, this is not really for your benefit. I think that deep down you know and understand all of this. It is certainly hard to say it though, isn’t it? I mean, it really does feel as though it comes off as self- serving. I know that feeling; I know it quite well.
Outsch – that lays the finger right on the wound – but in a good way. Yes, it is very hard to say, and it does come across as self serving. Which is probably why I keep thinking that it can't be true. *smile*
Quote: Pen, thanks for giving me things to think about. I hate it but love it at the same time. This is the type of stuff I hoped for with the BB. I like the resounding thud of my stomach once again hitting the ground as I realize yet another unsavory truth about myself. Why? It means I’m growing. Oh, I didn’t really intend to do it in front of hundreds of strangers, but, here it is.
I can only second that. All this process of “growing” certainly isn’t comfortable, but then we didn’t expect it to be – or did we? *grin*
Quote: By the way, I saw a few people asking where I was on this and various other threads. Thanks for that. In all honesty, the last big exchange (you all know the one!) took its toll on me. I need to figure out why that is. I know this much about myself: the things I see and hate in others are more often than not the things I hate about myself. This has been a tricky situation. I can’t understand it. Unfortunately, I don’t have the opportunity because it was never really worked out. The whole process made me just plain weary and very hesitant to jump in anywhere. Well, except here. After all, it is my safe place to come. And, visitors know that Betsey is not the only resident!
Pam, I had to comment on this too – because I think you’re just as competent in a conflict or “crisis” (whether on the BB or anywhere) as, for example, Betsey. You’re both born mediators, have great intelligence and maturity, a flexible mind, and a willingness to look at and consider all sides of an issue, combined with a genuine goodwill towards your fellow humans. Just look at how adroitly you handled the last “problematic situation” that came up here. So I’m sure that wherever you do jump in, no matter how “hot” or sensitive the topic, your insights are valued, and wanted.
Quote: in fact, it is the opposite of what I meant. I was trying to convey the following: two people are in a marriage that isn’t working. Both contribute their own issues. At some point, one or the other loses hope, and becomes a walkaway.
pen, i certainly wasn't laying any blame per se on what you were saying, in actuality i was asking a rhetorical question
it's so hard while in the midst of things to figure out what exactly went wrong
you can keep going back and back and back and really you can go back to the beginning of your first r when so and so did such and such - and each of us have our reasons for doing the things we do - and cast blame that we are in the sitch we are in because of such and such
the only point i was trying to make is that ultimately we have no one to blame but ourselves for the sitch we are in at the moment - no matter what it is
no matter what has happened to us - i wholeheartedly believe in we are here because of the choices we have made
i certainly don't like some of the choices i have made, and i have finally come to grips of the fact that i have to live with them, and now believe it or not i feel empowered by them
i have to converse for a minute about hindsite - what a piece of priveledged information that is eh? when we are in the midst of something we certainly cannot see the forest thru the trees, but come out of it, and look back on it, we all become experts...
huh - life is certainly funny at times
seriously, it's a kick in the pants
(i so know i am making absolutely no sense at all - but to me - it makes perfect sense...LOL)
Hi Pen - Until I read your post, I had no intention of telling NG that my approach was to consign our old relationship as dead and gone, and start afresh.
Quote: I came because I knew I’d never find any peace within myself if I didn’t confront the feelings of remorse that were clawing at me like some feral creature. I wanted to be able to forgive myself, but in order to do so, I first had to learn what it is a LBS goes through, so I am grateful for your perspective.
This just made my heart stop. What if this gnaws at him too? Should I not at least try to put him out of his misery? Something to think about. Slowly.
Pen! And I had thought you had forgotten about me!
Funny you should make the comment about being less judgemental. Me too. Except it all falls back under that whole "self serving" issue, doesn't it? It is far easier to be less judgemental when you yourself do not wish to be judged. Well, on the surface, anyway. I know that I had to fall hard to get myself back up. And, I am willing to take whatever anyone has to throw at me. So, for me, and I suspect you as well, it is not a matter of deflecting judgement. It is a matter of saying, "I was wrong to be that way." The old saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes really does hit home, doesn't it?
Thanks, Pen, for giving me lots to think about. I really needed this outlet.
Kitti, I feel bad for not responding to your post. I know how you are feeling. I just wanted you to know that I appreciated what you had to say. Process away. We're all friends here, so when you are ready to "talk," we'll all be here.
Seattle, I have tried, unsuccessfully, to respond to your questions 3 times now. I find myself digging way to deep into my background to try to explain things. I am going to give this one more go:
I said I didn't like myself. True. I didn't live up to my own expectations, and also (in my mind) the expectations of others. Instead of bettering myself, I just became bitter. It is easier, you know.
The OM WAS a symptom. It was something that felt like a movie to me. I was just letting it all happen around me. My heart was not in it, though he would tell you that it was. I was just acting out a role, trying to be the person that I wanted to be. I guess you could say I was trying it out on a fresh audience.
I talked about pre-conceived notions and how they limited me. So, you see, with the OM I could just be what I wanted. It was such a feeling of freedom to get rid of all of my "baggage." He only knew me as nice, funny, easy-going, etc. The more he told me that I was these things, the more I realized that I could be.
That is when it hit me, Seattle. About 5 months into that relationship I suddenly woke up to the fact that I could be that person all of the time, to everyone.
Now, it would have made perfect sense to have ended things with the OM, right? Yeah, but I didn't. I didn't know how. I didn't see a reason to. Like I said, it was all just a movie to me anyway. I was just waiting for the ending to happen for me.
That wasn't too long in coming. He e-mailed me, and it got into the wrong hands. Relationship over. In all honesty, I felt NOTHING. I just figured that I would go back to my own life.
Here's where the second realization hit. Suddenly my H took a stand. He looked at me with total disgust and said, "get out." Now, this will make NO SENSE to anyone, but I was sure that it would all blow over. I really and truly thought that he wouldn't care. I even was stupid enough to tell the OM that my H would be back playing sports with him in no time. I really thought it was all that easy!
What hurt the most was that my H very accurately pointed out that he thought things were better between us, and he pin-pointed it to the time that I decided to infuse the "new" me into every relationship. He was right, of course. However, he said he had no reason to believe it was for his benefit. I can say all I want that it was (really, it was!) but I know my actions spoke for me instead.
This may all sound very confusing. Well, it is. I am just trying to let you inside my mind at the time. I was not rational. I didn't think consequences. I didn't think I was hurting anyone. I loved my H, but I just didn't think that I would ever get what I needed and wanted from him.
What could have changed things? I know that facing up to losing him was the hardest thing I ever had to go through. I wish that when things first went bad that he would have told me that's where we were headed. I really thought that we would just keep plodding along. I never thought of the possibility of divorce. It was just something I threw out there for attention. It was kind of a temperature check for me. If I said I wanted out, and he wanted me to stay, well, that was enough for me.
I said before that if I had thought myself financially secure, I would have left. I'm sure that makes no sense after reading what I just said. But, it's true. I just felt like I had to keep upping the ante. I would have cut off my own nose to spite my face, as they say. It would have been the biggest call for attention of all, but it would have been one that no one heard. How could they? It would have seemed I was doing (and getting) what I wanted. Really though, it would have been yet another thing that I did without thinking of the consequences.
Thinking is hard! I used to try to avoid it at all costs!
So, now that I sound like a total lunatic, I hope that this can help you in some way. Betsey was right when she said that an OP is not taken as a means to hurt your spouse. I don't think that anyone ever sets out to intentionally hurt anyone else. Once it's done though, sometimes it is just easier to slide away from it than to face it.
Let me please say that this is not me anymore! I know now that I have to go through the hard stuff to appreciate the good. I am not lazy anymore. I want to do the work. Hopefully it's not too late. If it is for me, though, I hope someone else can learn from my mistakes.
Well, Pen, mark the calendar because we're in disagreement on this issue--at least on my own personal front. I must state that I placed a caveat on this discussion before we proceeded--that it was not wise to lump everyone in the same box and apply a cookie cutter diagnosis and course of action.
Linda actually said what I had been feeling during the time of my discontent:
Quote: I wasn't happy in my marriage but I didn't want to end my marriage. I wanted to understand what it was that was coming between our love, the resentment, the criticism, the withholding, the fear and anger. So until it was 'fixed' I didn't feel in balance, content, happy.
We had done a few rounds of MC... and it wasn't until he left that I realized he went because I wanted to go. I noticed (in hindsight) that he had not opened up on his issues.
I assure you, had I decided to leave first, I would have been forced to put the needs of my girls and him on a back burner to give me clearance to chart out my new path. Yet everytime I set those wheels in motion, all I could see were big red lights flashing--intuitions that told me there HAD to be a better way. I didn't know what that might have been, but I knew that a better solution was out there.
I dislike generics as much as I like labeling. I prefer to be someone who sees situations as uniquely individual, therefore, there is no book or counselor that should give a cookie cutter Rx without knowing the intricacies first.
I love the challenge of thinking outside the box. And if more of our spouses were solution centered rather than problem focused, I doubt we'd be here.
Randy--what I was trying to say in a long winded way was that in a true partnership, a committed spouse would be communicating issues with you. You indicated that one day she just got mad and left, right? Unless she's rabid-dog-like-crazy, that's probably not the case inside her head.
It may have taken on that appearance because of her dysfunction, but I'm willing to bet she wasn't looking for solutions for quite awhile. That's why the bomb seemed to come out of nowhere. I really just don't want to see you absorb 100% of the blame in a situation that doesn't deserve that assignation.
You WOULD have a batting average had she allowed you to take a turn at bat. Instead, she played the first and only inning and then called the game--pointing fingers at you and telling the spectators that it was your fault. The fact is that maybe she wouldn't have considered your opinion and perceptions or even your solutions, but had she been reasonable, would have entertained your side of the story.
Pam, I'm going to close this post with you. Pen said much more eloquently what I've been trying to say off the BB for some time. You have PLENTY to offer me and everyone else. Your mediation skills are excellent and you DO express yourself well. Just because Meredith and I articulate in a manner you enjoy and admire doesn't detract from the gifts you obviously possess. This goes back to my original thought...
We ARE uniquely different. We think differently. We hold different values. Sometimes they conflict. But a true diplomat is someone who can dissent, tell the other person to go to hell, and make them look forward to the journey (thank you, Henry Kissinger, for that statement). A diplomat sees that differing opinions are good.... and perhaps to give the dissenting parties something to consider and contemplate.
You do that awfully well, my friend.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I found something in a book last night that I thought I'd share. I particularly thought of Randy when I read it, but thought it might hit home with others too.
This is Principle #9 from a book of 365 principles to heal and transform your relationships....
I can feel rejected only when I am trying to take something "We can only feel hurt, rejected, or heartbroken when we surreptitiously take from our partner under the guise of giving. If we feel rejected, we are being asked to take a look at where in the situation we are giving to take. We can only feel rejected when we get our hand slapped as it sneaks toward the cookie jar.
Wholeness makes no demands. No one can reject us when there is nothing that we need. In moving forward, fully giving, and asking nothing, we cannot be pushed away, because we are irrestistible. It does not matter what the other person's behavior is because we are not trying to have them do it our way to meet our needs. Even if they pushed us away, we would openly feel ourselves loving them, becasue we are not trying to get something from them.
Nobody can stop our love, nobody can stop our giving, and this is waht we really want, just to give to them. We can give even from thousands of miles away. Only when we are giving to take can we feel hurt at all.
Today, let go of what you have been trying to take, and give fully. Give your support without asking that anything be returned to you. Giving is not a form of manipulation or a sacrifice to get something back from someone. When you truly give, it will move you forward, open, enlarge, and enhance you.
Oh, and there's this: A Broken Heart is Always an Attempt to Control Someone Through Guilt A Broken Heart means that we are on the losing end of a power struggle. Basically, our broken heart is an attempt to make others feel guilty so that they will meet our needs or do things our way; it's a form of emotional blackmail. The attempt to control will neither bring happiness nor get our needs met; it will just create a bigger power struggle.
Holy COW!!!!! I think I need to head out and buy that book immediately! Who is the author if you don't mind sharing?
Pam, your post was beautifully executed. I know you are no longer the way you were when you first started this journey. I am not either. Hopefully, being here has given us the impetus to make changes that are good for us in the short and long term.
Thanks for sharing all of it.
A big hug for you today!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: I also picked up "If it Hurts, It Isn't Love (& 365 other principles to Heal & Transform your Relationships)" by Chuck Spezzano. Each page has a principle which is explained fairly clearly - some are more obtuse than others - followed by a short exercise. So far it's okay - there are many good thoughts to chew on.
Hi Betsey - I also picked this book up this week. I am enjoying it.