Pen, after reading your sitch, I don't know what to say. You see both my wives left me for a married man. My first wife ended up marrying him, he is now deceased. My current W left me for her boss where we all work and he would not leave his W.
You can't imagine the pain of being the LBS.I think I know it well. A person can stand only so much rejection. It makes you feel you are worth nothing and will never be happy again. I was very bitter towards women after my first W and after 12 years I still don't like her at all.
I have not gotten angry with my current W, maybe it will come, but I hope not. I have questioned what is wrong with me and why she doesn't what to be around me any more. What does he have that I don't. What is he saying and doing that attracts her to him.
The first one was a smooth talker and I am not. Maybe this one is too. I do know she didn't leave me for sex.
I don't think you really want to see in the mind of a LBS. It is real scary. I am scared of my own mind. i hate myself at times for not giving my W what she needed and now that I know this I have not had the chance to show her.
I never thought my W would cheat on me. I trusted her more than any one ever. I felt secure in our marriage and vowed to be with her the rest of my life. My mistake was taking her for granted and when she dropped the bomb it woke me up and I realized I had screwed up.
I have made changes but now it may be too late. Yes I made the changes for her, but now they are for me.the first D I lost 45 lbs, this time I lost 70. I would go days and not eat anything.
I don't want this post to be mean and I am glad you and your H are happy. This is just a touchy subject to me. Please forgive me if I offended you or made you mad it was not my intention. You wanted to know about the LBS mind so here it is.
Feel free to pick my brain anytime. I think it helps me too. God Bless you.
Sounds like you guys are in a good Q&A session? I won't disturb you much here.
Seattle--the book in discussion is called Living with the Passive Aggressive Man, by Scott Wexler. GD1 and I have differing opinions on this subject. She likes it, I hate it.
I think the title should read, "Things you should know about passive aggressiveness" instead. It doesn't tell you HOW to live with the PA man--no coping strategies, no ways to help them overcome their fears or how to get to middle ground. It merely informs the reader what passive aggressiveness is and offers some convenient typing.
I personally think it's a huge waste of money. If you must read it, go to the library and ask them to special order it. What I know about passive aggressiveness has been mostly learned by 1) college level psychology courses and 2) living with men who exhibit the behaviors (my father and Mr. W.).
Randy, you said:
Quote: You can't imagine the pain of being the LBS.I think I know it well. A person can stand only so much rejection. It makes you feel you are worth nothing and will never be happy again. I was very bitter towards women after my first W and after 12 years I still don't like her at all.
This is what I was trying to address with you in your thread. I hope that maybe as a LBS and someone who could have been a WAW, I can help you overcome this perception--or at least to attempt to do so?
If I had been the WAW, I can promise you that the thing furthest from my mind would have been how Mr. Wonderful felt. I would have to be in INCREDIBLE emotional pain to feel there was no other way. Mr. Wonderful has confirmed that this statement is definitely true.
It really is not a rejection of the spouse as much as it is a coping mechanism. If your W has exhibited patterns of seeming to be happy for 10 years before picking up and moving on without warning, I'm going to take a venture to say that she refuses to address the conflict that brews under the surface.
How, then, is this a rejection of you? I realize full well that you perceive this to be the case. I understand it too. But if she doesn't give you or her 1st H a chance to work through things, it really isn't personal is it?
Her inabilities, inadequacies and character defects do NOT make you worthless or unlovable. I wonder how I could phrase my thoughts so you could see yourself as an entity that is not at all related to her?
If you could see yourself as a human man, one who loves and feels deeply, you would also be able to see that she is a separate entity. Neither of you requires the other to be happy. Therefore, neither of you has the capacity of making the other person unhappy.
Sure, triggers exist that anger us. But it is OUR responsibility to ask questions so that we understand the behaviors for what they are. It is OUR responsibility to process these things. It is OUR responsibility to identify deal breakers--behaviors that conflict with our core value system or are just plain annoying. It is OUR responsibility to encourage intimacy by sharing these things with our partner without projecting back.
If you never had a chance to get to bat, how do you know you're a shitty hitter? How could you get a batting average if you never stepped up to the plate to take a swing? Does that mean you have a 100% or a 0% batting average?
You have the power to make that differentiation, friend. Not her. Not anyone else but you.
I was almost the WAW... and I am sure that many of you would like to judge me for being here and taking issue with Mr. Wonderful for doing first what I considered for a long time. My only defense is that for the past 5 years, I was damn sick and tired of pretending there was nothing wrong. Of living in an emotionally sterile marriage. Of getting sex without intimacy. Of being told that the problems were in my head and ones I was creating out of boredom.
Even if some or all of them were true, I knew enough to know that I couldn't continue living that life any longer. It's why I don't judge Mr. W. for his choice. I wish he would have found a diplomatic solution first. But since he didn't, I just have to trust his feelings that this could not have played out with any success any other way.
Even if we go our separate ways, I have my dignity back. I know I wasn't crazy or immature for needing the things I was saying I needed all along. I know I wasn't unreasonable for wanting them in the context of being married. I wasn't happy being where we were. SOMETHING had to give.
I don't mean you should find sympathy for your W for walking out and breaking a promise. But if her pattern is such that she has not been able to change the rules of engagement for her own sake, I just don't see the rejection of you as the case--but one where she is rejecting her own happiness.
Just because she thinks she is happier running away doesn't mean that it's true. Where is there nobility and dignity in walking out? There isn't any. The shame is hers to bear, not yours.
While you probably have your own faults, you're a good and decent man. You have a lot to offer--and I think it would really help if you could see yourself through those glasses. You just need to cease any thoughts that allow you to play the victim.
I should know... I played that card myself for awhile. And guess what? It didn't work. I wasn't happier until I started reclaiming the life that was rightfully mine to begin with.
I hope this didn't hurt you, as it wasn't my intention. I just know that my worst enemy in tough times is me. My negative thought patterns bring me back to places that no longer serve a useful purpose. I think it would push you into the next stratosphere if you left it behind as well. This is luggage none of us should be carrying.
My two cents worth, of course.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Betsey, that was very well laid out. I think I needed to hear that as well. Now I just need some time to process it and see where it leads me.
I know I'm on my journey to becoming "whole" but for some reason I can't shake it all off. I will use your words here to help give me a push in that direction.
You're just sooooo insightful and sharp w/your tongue. Thanks!!!! Tootles............
Betsey, that was very well laid out. I think I needed to hear that as well. Now I just need some time to process it and see where it leads me.
I know I'm on my journey to becoming "whole" but for some reason I can't shake it all off. I will use your words here to help give me a push in that direction.
You're just sooooo insightful and sharp w/your tongue. Thanks!!!! Tootles............
Quote: If I had been the WAW, I can promise you that the thing furthest from my mind would have been how Mr. Wonderful felt. I would have to be in INCREDIBLE emotional pain to feel there was no other way. Mr. Wonderful has confirmed that this statement is definitely true.
It really is not a rejection of the spouse as much as it is a coping mechanism.
how true these words are
most of you know that i was the waw for my first marriage - and these words could not be closer to the truth
for those lbs - and believe me i say this with every essense of my being - this is NOT about you - this is about THEM - this is the only way they know how to cope with the world THEY have created - THEIR perception is not YOUR perception
notice i say THEY have created, please always try to remember that this ISN'T about you
i cannnot say that enough
i have to say also, thanks for the support while i process what i need to - i have to get past this and into a place where i feel safe - i am not there yet, but i have to tell you that i am getting there much faster than i could ever work thru things before
but i have to thank each and everyone of you for being honest - honesty is SO CRITICAL to the growing of ourselves
what does the 12 step program state? admitting there is a problem is the first step?
your post is, as usual, so beautifully written that I'm almost convinced. Almost, but not quite. To me, these two statements contain a contradiction, however small.
Quote: If I had been the WAW, I can promise you that the thing furthest from my mind would have been how Mr. Wonderful felt. I would have to be in INCREDIBLE emotional pain to feel there was no other way. Mr. Wonderful has confirmed that this statement is definitely true. It really is not a rejection of the spouse as much as it is a coping mechanism.
Quote: My only defense is that for the past 5 years, I was damn sick and tired of pretending there was nothing wrong. Of living in an emotionally sterile marriage. Of getting sex without intimacy. Of being told that the problems were in my head and ones I was creating out of boredom.
So yes, the WAW leaves because he or she is in pain, but he (let's use the generic) is also rejecting the spouse on some level. Or let me rephrase this - he is rejecting the marriage as it is at that point, and of course the spouse is a part of that marriage. I think the "it is all about the WAS and their emotional pain" tempting, but probably inaccurate. Each sitch is different, and it some it probably "is" all about the WA - but I'd say in most cases it's a joint effort, and a toss-up who leaves first. You were almost a WA, and now he's a WA. To me this shows you both had issues that needed addressing, and it seems to me you addressed yours with a vengeance - but only after someone broke the deadlock and left. Whether he addressed his will remain to be seen. Had you been the WA, it would still not have been "all about you", but the reasons you've listed above would have remained valid, and part of the decision.
Pen, sometimes insightful, but never comfortable to have around.
First, thanks for the synopsis on the book, i'll check around to see if i can check it out of the library first.
Second, i really like what you have said and agree with it entirely. both you and KK. seems a lot like what Pam posted earlier, which i also appreciated.
i like this communal thread thing, it is a nice forum to share some thoughts. i'm glad we're all adult enough to tackle the tough subjects without getting too sensitive.
Quote: but I'd say in most cases it's a joint effort, and a toss-up who leaves first
so what came first? the chicken or the egg?
i am seriously dealing with this issue as of late - pen your statement here deserves some conversation - do we constantly go back to who did what to whom first?
let's start with this...
we can all go round and round about who did what to whom that made whomever do what they felt was necessary to do
but it all comes down to the eternal truth
we are all free moral agents and we CHOOSE to do what we do because what is COMFORTABLE to us at a certain time
Speaking for myself, I wasn’t going to go back to who-did-what-to-whom-first at all – in fact, it is the opposite of what I meant. I was trying to convey the following: two people are in a marriage that isn’t working. Both contribute their own issues. At some point, one or the other loses hope, and becomes a walkaway.
Now, the LBS claims “if only I had known how much xxxx bothered you I would have changed it". With hindsight, it is easy to say, yes of course, they would (and could have). But how do we know? How do we know that the “shock” wasn’t the only thing that would bring about any changes in either of them? We must remember that bad habits are as sticky as burrs, and overcoming them is extremely difficult. Some smokers need a heart attack or a thrombosis to finally admit they have a problem, and kick the habit – and a WA/LBS situation is the equivalent of a marital heart attack.
I’m not saying I’m right, nor that it applies to all (or even most) of the sitches, I’m just offering it as food for thought.
Hi all, Yep , the book is Living with A Passive Agressive Man. I think Bets already KNEW that's what she was dealing with and so she read , hoping she'd learn HOW to live with one better. I was like someone said above: I felt that there was something not quite right, but I couldn't put my finger on it. I mean, i was married to MR. Nice Guy, so if there was something I needed and wasn't finding....well it must have been me, right? Then a therapist diagnosed Mr. Nice Guy as being attachment injured and yep, we all have some of those isseus, but he was adopted so had the abandonment of birth mother thing and then 6 months before he came back and searched me out he found out that his adoptive mom had early onset Alzheimers.....so I think it fair to assume that my conflict avoidant MR. NG was looking for the unconditional love that mommies give and hadn't much of a clue about what partners should be thinking about giving each other and taking from each other. For me, the book read sort of like my life: oh THATs what was up when he withheld sex, that's why he said/did/didn't do that. The thing about P/A partners is that the 'sins' are of OMISSION rather than COmission. They don't usually name call, punch, criticize out loud...something you can pin down ..it is all in the withholding, omitting, NOT doing, feeling , saying. And if you don't have P/A tendencies yourself (I think I am a nurturer/fixer) it is difficult to understand what is going on in the P/A mindset. So, basically, the book says that a P/A man tends to be afraid of abandonment like everyone else BUT the difference is that he blames his partner for his fear. When he realizes he actually NEEDS you, he is afraid but also angry that he needs you. And when you need him: Whoa, watch out, cause he closes down. He WANTS intimacy but is so afraid of it that he sabotages. Sex isn't about pleasing his partner, but more often pleasing himself....and his partner should please herself. Well, ok, but where then is the intimacy? So, I found it a good book cause it defined some ambiguous things that I could never before understand. The gist is that P/As are driven by fear and anger and they hold you to blame or transfer the blame onto you. And living with them? Well, it is difficult unless you can LOVE them gently back to NORMAL so to speak...You have to confront, but lovingly and patiently and blamelessly. So you need to be a Mother Teresa. In Bets case, she has done a great job, and the result is that HER Mr. W has finally admitted that maybe HE has some issues. Mine never could. I was loving and patient for lots of years and finally realized that I was never going to get what I needed and thought was a reasonable need to want from a partner in life. And I sort of gave up with giving on my part...and that is when the marriage really went to hell. Because the P/A man never seems to get that needing is ok, kinda nice even, and SAFE. They resent needing. But they expect their partner to give what she has been giving for years and years and if she stops...there is hell to pay. How DARE she? And they just don't get that reciprocal is ok, it is important, it is part of it...that maybe only moms should be expected to give unconditional love...and that partners should give reciprocal love. Anyway...if you are doubting yourself and have felt that no matter how you try to address issues, you are somehow always to blame....then you might be dealing with a P/A man and this book gives you some understanding into what they do and why they do it. Yep, it is short on how to LIVE with them or CHANGE them....but it is a maladaptive coping skill they have adopted to protect themselves, so the key is making it safe enough for them to figure that out and to patiently lead them into finding a better way. I regret that I may have had a chance to do that with my X back in l995, but I didn't know the nature of the beast then. And all the excuses I made for his 'different'-from-my behaviors/responses/reactions actually just enabled him. If I had read this book and had been very, very lucky, there is a chance we could be happily and healthily married. So I will always regret that I didn't learn more, learn better back then. In all, I think P/A, attachment injured/ emotional stilllifes all have similar etiology based in fear and anger. And I think P/A souls call out for nurturer/fixers who enable each other in many ways. I say that I fixed and was perceived as a controller but that X was a COVERT controller and much more devious and destructive.
Anyway...an easy read. If not the library, try Amazon.com USED books and you'll probably find a cheap copy.
In the other Q and A stuff: the happiness, making someone happy or un etc category: I think we do have to rely on ourselves for the most part to choose to be happy. But I think we all need certain fundamental basics to be happy. I, for one, (eternal romantic)could be happy hungry but with a man I felt deeply intimate with. I could be happy, feeling cold and very poor, if I had someone I loved to share my blanket with...ok, lame examples, I will stop now My point is that I don't believe that you can be happy about your most important relationship if that relationship is stagnant, destructive, if you are hurting the one you love and vv. You can TRY to solve the problems, you can CHOOSE to confront your needs and issues, but if your partner can't wont'....then I don't think you can just choose to accept that your basic needs aren't being met and choose to be happy. I wasn't happy in my marriage but I didn't want to end my marriage. I wanted to understand what it was that was coming between our love, the resentment, the criticism, the withholding, the fear and anger. So until it was 'fixed' I didn't feel in balance, content, happy. And then: when above, people are talking about 2 people responsible for their own needs and happiness...I can understand BUT I feel that in a marriage a 3rd 'unit' is created, a WE. And that the WE takes on it's own entity. Some of SELF goes into that entity and is slightly changed. Personally, I think that is ok and even more than ok...that is the part of the sharing, caring, love that I really like. Mutual interdependence comes close to putting a label on it. So, we are responsible for taking care of ourselves, but also taking care of the WE. Am I jsut running at the mouth again? Oh well, back to reality.
Betsey 
