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Betsey,

How about just letting yourself feel what you feel so that it can move out of you? I agree with the others who say:
1. you've paid a pretty big price
2. you've felt remorse and made amends
3. you've grown immensely as a result
4. you're entitled to be someone other than a superhero sometimes (i.e, human like the rest of us)

p.s. to Cathy, I like to read your thread... and I'm guilty as charged. A writer, I am. And not knowing what to write or how to put our thoughts together plagues us all sometimes!

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Hi guys - I LIKE this party, as painful as healing can be, it seems like this thread will be read for a long time yet

Overnight, I made a decision about letting go of the old, and wondered how effective I would be at following through on that decision. The litmus test? Just reading through some of the posts here, I'm no longer filtering things from the perspective of 'is this why NG did it, is this how he felt or still feels' - I am actually just reading about you, my wonderfully supportive friends.

I feel stronger. Thank you all for your gifts. Slowly.


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Kitti,

Thanks for such an interesting post. I am so incredibly humbled at all of the folks who are willing to candidly share their experiences and thoughts here. (that means you, Betsey, Pen, Pamela and others)

When and if you feel compelled to dive into that water yourself, Kitti, it will be when you are ready and when doing so will help you go forward somehow.

The shame issue is such a biggie, huh? One we all seem to deal with in some way, no matter what our roles have been in the M that brought us here. There is a lot to work through. I know that being able to talk about the reality of my H's A and our M here has helped me tremendously to get past the shame I felt for a long time as the LBS and what was fueling it. And to explore the shame my H has tried to communicate to me that he feels, and the ways in which even my most justifiable/understandable reactions contributed. What a web it all is!

It has also helped me to clarify my own values and get a whole lot better at seeing where my daily actions match them and don't match them so I can make changes. That is the biggest gift of all for me because it has changed my life the most.

Kitti, you've come such a long way and given a lot on this BB. I suspect you've given a lot to yourself as well. I admire you for your journey. If and when you decide you might wish to share some of it with us, well, that's icing on the cake. The hard work is all you, girl.

take care,
wonder

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Well, well, well. Isn't this interesting stuff today? I guess I'm relieved that there are others in this boat with me?

I can't say I have had any epiphanies since my rant yesterday. I'm still working on it. I managed to pray for myself, Mr. Wonderful and OM as well. I think that's the most anyone can ask of me right now, and it's all I can do anyway.

I ended up taking the girls to IHOP last night, because I didn't want to grill or cook (even though the rain had stopped). While we were out, Mr. Wonderful left a VM. He mainly wanted to talk to D10... who phoned him back when we got home. She asked if I had anything to discuss with him and I said emphatically, "NO". Another surprise? I am also a little angry at him.

Why? Although I have contributed my half to the demise in our R, I didn't bring it down singlehandedly. The reason I found solace in OM was because Mr. Wonderful was not taking care of business at home. I decided that not talking to him at the moment was my best option and I wasn't angry when I asked D10 to relay my message. Just tired and quiet.

I'll get there...

Wonder, I will tell myself those things. The fact is that I learned plenty from my nearly blurry PA but mostly EA. Lots of unpleasant truths were revealed and things that were ultimately fixed because I could finally see them.

I can honestly say the lessons were valuable, although it seems a bit premature to say that they were worth the hefty price.

Kitti, if we're in this boat together, you can count on some help to navigate through those dreams when you're ready. I suspect the reason you brought this up is that you ARE ready. I know the fear is daunting. Getting emotionally messy is frightening, and it's never easy to do.

But you're right: it's the ONLY way you can truly heal. Otherwise, your subconscious is going to torment you in a variety of ways until you DO deal with it.

Did I ever tell you about one of my haunting dreams? The one that scared the living cr@p out of me until 4 years ago began around the time I got married. It consisted of watching Mr. Wonderful get killed in a motorcycle accident, and occurred during times of transition during the course of my M.

It made me leery of watching him climb on his motorcycle, but it didn't take me too long to figure out that it was metaphor for something entirely different.

I stopped having it 4 years ago, after I had a hypnosis session--ironically, one that dealt with my abandonment issues. However, I think it was more foretelling than I ever knew: I really believe it was telling me that an event would occur that would be out of my control, and that there would be no turning back.

IF that is correct, then it is true. Even if it was a warning to change, I didn't take notice and make the adjustments.

Kitti, I don't think I want to become a dream interpreter, but I think you already have the answers in your heart. Be patient with yourself. I know I am giving myself the same latitude--the first step in changing and adjusting is to realize there is something that needs fixing.

Thanks to everyone for their two cents worth here!

Betsey


"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."

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Bets,
I have finally caught up on your thread and it was a real eye opener. You really need to forgive yourself. That is in the past and it can't be changed. How do you expect your H to forgive you if you can't forgive yourself?

Now about the shame you and others feel. I think my W feels that also and I'm afraid it may be enough to keep her from coming back. What could your H do (if anything) to help you get rid of the shame?

I ask this because I have forgiven my W and I am trying to forget it as much as possible. I would like to convey this to her. I have told her I forgive her, but it was at a time she didn't want to hear anything nice from me and still doesn't.

You have paid the price for your sins. If you have asked God for forgiveness then it is done. Now forgive yourself.


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Hi KKitty...
I've started having dreams again too, must be summer solstice, ya think? Dreams are mostly for release and letting go of the worry, fear, abandonment, anxiety. I think of it as the brain getting so filled it up, it has to let things out while we sleep, while we can't hold onto them. So think of how much ROOM you've made in your brain lately!

I have no deep dark secrets to relive (at least none during the marriage and nothing I can REMEMBER (thank God for Halfheimers ) BUT along this vein, when I asked X to leave the first time , in l995, I remember while we were separated I 'made up' a guy who I almost, but not quite had 'feelings for'.....and I told my husband this because he had withhold the things my made up guy gave...for years, and i wanted X to know that I needed these things from him, and would probably find them elsewhere if he couldn't give them. But even that LITTLE act of a MAYBE person is something that my P/A X probably could never forgive. To him,it was my betrayal not about my telling him what I needed from him. And of course I now see that my using fiction to tell my guy what I needed from him was not particularly healthy communication on MY part. (I've read that living with a P/A partner often brings out similar coping skills in the 'party of the first part'.

And why I brought this up, dear Bets, is: how much of this has been told to Mr.W? Maybe this is something you need to think about, if you haven't already told him all. If PAs hold grudges forever and punish in kind...well, just a thought.

Thanks for the post...I call you when I'm headed to Denver just in case we can arrange a serendipitous meetup. You are probably busier than anyone I know at the mo, so instead of 'making plans' I just call when i'm in town on the off chance. Actually, when I called late, I was driving home, it was after 9 and cell was free! Just wanted to pick up the Slim4life stuff and let you know I found EAS 1 gram carb/protein drinks at the supermarket and have been having one for breakfast each day...100 cals and it seems to easily stop food cravings for a meal. I plan on having them in my car for trips to Denver too. Easy lunch.

Now for my true confession:
I used to feel bad EVER wishing anything bad on anyone. Then, I wished some badass on people who were hurting my loved ones. Finally, I have been wishing badass on OW, X and X's lawyer. At first I felt guilty, but lately, I just feel that the kind of badass I 'm wishing for is more KARMA WITH AN EDGE . I've decided to just not feel bad about it at all. It's there. X asked me (before he was X and while he was hiding affair with Dr. HO....don't you want me to have a nice house to live in (while he was depleting @ $500,000 of money into a house I had just built for him )and to be happy? Well, dickhead, NO,now that I think about it....NO. And lately, I am not going to justify my wishes...they are childish, but I am no saint. My latest dream was that I went by 'his' house and the HO and her family were all there talking about her upcoming wedding at the place where X and I had chosen to marry. And I was asked if I didnt' wish them well or something in the dream and found myself perplexed as to what to answer. I doubt I will ever be HAPPY for them. I'm sure a large part of that has to do with the idea that if he can be happy with her, then maybe it was ME after all. The worst thing about PA love partners (and I hope no one is offended by my labeling) after the withholding part...is that they seemingly are adept at getting us to doubt ourselves.

Healing is such a long term objective for us all , ain't it?

Well don't mind me, I have a trial on my birthday and I am doing anything to put off thinking about it so I am just feeling sorry for my lonely self and reading all this stuff about guilt and shame and thinking: lets all go back to kindergarten.
gd

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Hi Betsey,

I'm curious. And since our aquaintance is fairly recent, you have no way of knowing that this phrase of mine always precedes a completely indiscreet question, and that there's absolutely no need to answer any of them if you'd rather not. *smile*

What I'm curious about is how closely the discovery of your A and Mr W's leaving are linked - did he find out about it and leave in a huff? Did he leave, and find out about it later? Did he ask you to stop talking to OM, and you couldn't at first? Or would he have left anyways, A or not?

The other thing I'm curious about is this: we've talked about forgiving yourself, and forgiving OM - but how about forgiving Mr W for his part in the whole scenario? Have you forgiven him for being the kind of husband that would make you vulnerable to another's attentions, and then not only leaving, but refusing to make a decision about your future for such an extended time? Or is this something you've put on hold, and want to process with him once he makes a decision?

Pen

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Linda--Thanks for your thoughts! I hear what you're saying and I think I'm gonna do something about it. Let me know how the EAS bar works long term. I'm down 1 more lb. and am getting closer by the day.

Pen--I haven't put that on hold at all. In fact, when Mr. W. called last night and I found myself not in the mood to chat, THAT's when I figured out I was angry with him for his part in this drama and figured out that I still had work to do forgiving him too.

No, it took him 6 months to leave after I told him about OM. He didn't even ask me to stop talking to him--that was something I figured out that I needed to do on my own. How I told him... well, that was a very weird story all by itself.

Some bizarre stuff was being discussed by OM--things with a distinct sexual nature. I was heading back east with D10 and Mr. W. was taking D7 to Montana. Well, a very dramatic twist came into the story with OM and I began feeling the effects of how wrong the whole picture really was.

I began to wish/pray for some big reason for me to be able to cancel my trip without losing $800 of airfare (for 2 of us). A few hours later, I went to pick up D7 from daycare (which was right next to my office) so that Mr. W. could exchange cars with me and get headed north... meanwhile, D10 and I were scheduled to leave bright and early the next morning.

As D7 (then D5) sat on my lap, I began to sense something very wrong. She began to vomit and entered one of her cyclic vomiting episodes--which are actually seizures. She was in the hospital within 2 hours and all of us had to cancel our trips. It was divine intervention at its finest.

To this day, I thank God and whoever else for granting my prayer at her expense. I'm very grateful for that, though I hate watching my baby hurt and for knowing she suffered.

Anyway, we got her out of the hospital the following afternoon. The next morning, Mr. Wonderful had gotten up early and come back upstairs to bring me coffee--only to find me sobbing. I told him I needed to talk to him. He reacted so stoically and unemotionally. As if I had told him I saw a neighbor hit someone else's dog. Like he didn't care? But nonetheless, he hugged me and held me like he hadn't done before.

That was July 2002. He moved out January 2003. So you see, there was quite a bit of time in between. I had also just begun counseling. After I told him the truth was when I decided to come clean with the C. THEN she was able to help me. At that point, I was still undecided as to whether or not I was going to stay... I had been hell bent on leaving him for quite some time.

I have forgiven him for leaving and for sitting on the fence. I just have to work on what led up to it.

So I have to say I appreciate your insight to this and for asking the tough questions. Obviously, I need them. Your final question? Yes, I think he was going to leave anyway. Otherwise, he'd have given me a shot at fixing things, wouldn't he? At the VERY least, he would have talked to me about things that bothered him? He didn't. That came with the notice that he was leaving after Christmas and needed the checkbook to put down a deposit on an apartment close to work....

Ugh. You'd think that memory wouldn't hurt after a couple years, but it still does. Not sure if it's the shame or the sequence of events or the memory or all of it. In the end, who really cares? I can only change what happens here and out.

Betsey


"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."

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Hi Friends.

Betsey thank you for coming to my thread.Your right I should look at this as a seperate process.

However I'm still having a hard time with my sitch.I find it hard to see where I need to go and what I might be doing to make this worse.

I can see other peoples path why can't I see mine.

Seeing him refile for divorce and seing the papers after having a ok counuling session came as a shock even though I knew they just might be coming.

I'm sorry to hijack your thread.

But I'm so heart broken and I just wanted to thank you for your kindness.

Later Friend.
Love,
Briget


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Bets, I think 6 months after the telling of the EA is a relatively short time for PAs to decide to leave...meaning that it seems that they process slower and that he held in his resentment for 6 months and let it seeth. Plus, that book on the PAs says distinctly that of all their fears the fear of change is the most troubling to a true PA. So his taking 6 months to react...well that seems like it was just a 'day's worth' of time in his brain and a direct reaction to the biggest PA fear: abandonment, rejection.

So yep, his withholding affection and desire is part of the pay back...I think Mr. W. is definitely punishing you and doesn't GET that at the same time he is really punishing himself. We all need to grow up

Yes, you do need to forgive all around, him included.And Ithink that forgiving comes in pieces...when he comes back it will be like a burden taken from your shoulders and that will be mostly the forgiving...and when you both feel the trust come back then it will fly away. Least that is what I remember from our reconciliation back in l995. The difference in us and you guys? I don't think we learned anything much...sadly, although we both experienced pain back then and then a resurgance of love...we just didnt' let ourselves grow and learn so ended up here now.Bummmer.

Maybe compare the ingredients to your mildshakes/drinks ...but htis stuff has a good deal of vitamins and protein and costs about $1.75 a can.I bought the 1 carb variety and French Vanilla is the best tasting.

Of course, I still gained weight yesterday....I really do this. Go on these weird binges where even NOT eating I gain wwight. But it is usually in the fall and not at a time when I weight the most ever. So it is kinda f---ed and I find myself angry at that too. Boy, for someone who rarely got angry I am FULL OF IT these days.
gd

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