I am so glad that this isn't going to knock you off track from finishing with your OM. I also know you can't force your feelings to come back....takes time just like getting in this situation takes time.
DB you A_ _ off.....well by your post about the OW, I guess I got the impression that you might want your H and M a little more than you thought you did, even though you closed by being a bit ambivalent about it again.
On your "facts", I remind you that these are the "facts" as you preceive them. They might not be the "facts" as your husband percieves them. Case in point:
He said "Well... come on... these delineations of yours about what we are doing are not as clear to me as they are to you... I am not all that confident about you and me, and either are you." You have to admit he is a bit right at the end of this statement, neither one of you are confident about your relationship. Seems as if you both too out of gas to either work on it or end it.
He said "Oh, you do not really want to break off with OM. You love OM. You have done this whole "separation" year your way, on YOUR time table, and now I am supposed to adjust my timetable based on a break up with OM?" From what you have posted, I can't say as I really blame him for this attitude. He was patient for awhile, and now something natural has happened, just as natural as you doing what you did with the OM.
I'm just saying that it's reconciliation-sabotage, and I'm not sure how I feel about DB-ing under those circumstances. Come on A, this is your emotions talking here. It is no more sabotage than what you were doing. You know that when an M is ignored (as it has apparently been in your case for awhile) that someone is likely to stray, looking for what they need.
A - I would say this, even if you can't make up your mind to pursue your M, then I would recommend that you don't sabotage it while you are thinking about it. Your ultimatum: I said "Fine. When is she coming? Give me a date." is not going to help you here, but hurt you instead. If he had given you ultimatums (maybe he did, but you don't mention it) how would you have responded?
To me relationships are all about timing, and when the timing is off, someone has to do the hard things to get the timing right again. You and your H were off time, you went to OM, the H apparently did not do the right thing to help you out of the situation, and now that you are getting ready to perhaps work on your M, your husband is now possibly pursuing another relationship. Like I said, someone has to do some heavy lifting here to get it started, and as much as you hate to hear it, it sounds like you will be the one to do it now.
"Perfect love is rare indeed - for to be a lover will require that you continually have the subtilty of the very wise, flexibility of the child, the sensitivity of the artist, the understanding of the philosopher, the acceptance of the saint, the tolerance of the scholar, and the fortitude of the certain". -Leo Buscaglia
Quote: Yes, I had an open A, I realize that!... but H has clearly sabotaged this reconciliation at the 11th hour... most men on this forum with straying wives would KILL to be in his shoes, with finally a real chance to reconcile with their "selfish" W's after a year of zero progress, and what does my H do as soon as I start talking and acting seriously about coming back? He starts up a cyber affair...
New to this thread but have been following it some. Hope you don't mind if I pipe in with an opinion. You are over thinking things. You are assigning motives that are not there. Annalise, you don't have any idea why he has decided to start a relationship with someone in the "11th hour." Your perception of what has been going on is probably completely different than his, infact, based on some of the things he has said it would be safe to say he does percieve the situation completely differently than you do.
I have a theory about what is happening with your husband. He has no trust in you. It's really very simplistic. The man does not believe what you say because, what you say is not backed up by action. It's fine and dandy to tell someone you are going to break it off with the other man. What holds water though is actually breaking it off with the other man.
Your husband has lived with your sense of ambivilance for a year now. He has taken his training as a therapist and tried to respond to the circumstances in a productive way. His responses do not mean that he is not being eaten up alive inside Annalise. I have stood in front of my ex husband and smiled and it would outwardly appear that I am calm and emotionally fine with the situation. Inside I have died a thousand times but he will never know it.
Maybe your husband is doing the same thing. Maybe he has done it until he can't do it any longer. Maybe his loss of trust due to your ambivilance has finally gotten him to the point that he has given up and feels he needs to move on instead of wait around for you to do something.
You seems to both be waiting around for the other to do something and neither one seems able to take any constructive action. DBing is about taking constructive action, it's about being willing to be the one to make the first positive move regardless of what the other person is doing.
In my opinion your husband's response to your affair was very positive. If he had played it any other way he would have driven you right out of the marriage. I've seen many, many people here on the DB board do exactly as your husband has done.
There comes a breaking point though. There comes a point where it is time to cut bait and walk away. That is only human nature. I understand your struggles and conflicts. I'm not judging you BUT I think you are failing to see that your husband has his own struggles and conflicts also.
You seem to base every action you take on his actions. You want to know when this woman is coming to town so that you can begin to work on reeling him back in. Reeling him back in and salvaging your marriage is not dependent on when this woman will be in town. It's dependent on whether or not you begin to take some positive steps of your own.
The first being....winning his trust again, showing him that you do mean what you are saying by backing it up with some action. Cathy~
Thank you for your post. Yes, I do think it is possible that I am "overthinking" the dynamics of my H's recent behavior, good point. And, of course I do realize that this is very painful for him despite outward appearances.
QUOTE: "You seem to base every action you take on his actions. You want to know when this woman is coming to town so that you can begin to work on reeling him back in. Reeling him back in and salvaging your marriage is not dependent on when this woman will be in town. It's dependent on whether or not you begin to take some positive steps of your own."
This is true, of course! However, I am simply not personally motivated to DB at this point!! That's the fact. And IDEALLY I do not want to have to force myself to "do it anyway." I think DB will be more effective when my heart is in it... AFTER I have broken off with OM (which I am mid-way through doing) and AFTER I gotten over the worst of that grief.
However, I may not have the luxury of waiting for that "ideal" time to DB, and in that case I MIGHT choose to force myself to do it sooner, such as if things escalate with this potential OW. In that one instance, you are correct, I would be basing my actions on his actions. That is not always wrong, people do that with eachother constantly. I do not ALWAYS base my actions on his, though. My decision to quit with OM came from inside ME, and had nothing to do with anything H was doing... I made that decision when H was behaving the same as always.
QUOTE;
"winning his trust again, showing him that you do mean what you are saying by backing it up with some action."
Yes... I agree. Keep in mind, I have NOT spent all year promising to break off with OM. Far from. All year long I have been pursuing OM and not kidding myself or my H about that. Unlike the vast majority of people who stray, I have never once deceived my H, not through any of this. This is why H and I both feel the "trust" in our M has not been as violated as would normally be expected in an "affair" situation.
I only told my H two other times that I was breaking off with OM, and both times I followed through, in good faith, fully intending for it to be permanent. However, it only held a few weeks each time. As soon as I went back, I told my H immediately.
This is the third time I have told H that I plan to stop with OM, and I am taking different steps this time to make sure it "holds." If it doesn't, my plan is to re-assess my committment to my M. It strikes me lately that my inability to break with OM may be, IN PART, a way to avoid working on a M that perhaps I would rather let go of at this point than continue to work on. I don't know... but that is something I am grappling with.
Geat Buscaglia quote, and very wise words about R timing. And yes, I do realize that my feelings about H sabotaging our reconciliation plans are a bit egocentric... I am trying to push past those feelings.
QUOTE:
"Seems as if you both too out of gas to either work on it or end it."
YES! We really want to do neither. I could force myself to do either, though. So could he. Quite the conundrum.
Even after I cut off with OM, I am not real hopeful the ambivalence about H and my M will improve all that much, so I think it is going to be a matter of just forcing myself to get back in there and hoping for the best. Kind of like making yourself get out of bed in the morning, even though it's the LAST thing you want to do... but then once you're up and around, you feel fine... THAT is what I am hoping for.
Yeah, the "heavy lifting" you speak of is a problem, because neither of us motivated to do that, and half of me really does just want to move on from BOTH OM AND H... be on my own awhile, and find another relationship one day, one that is more POSSIBLE than the one with OM, and more NATURAL than the one with H. Two of my sisters think I have not given this option enough serious consideration, and they may be right. They think I am acting like OM and H are my only two options, and they feel that is a very narrowed perspective. It may be, but one of the reasons I hate to bail on my M right now, is because H and I have never had a time just to ourselves... I had two kids when we met, and the moment the last one left the nest, we separated over an ongoing conflict, then my A started. So, we've never even had a chance to see how the R feels without the distraction (and safety net) of kids... I would like to do that before giving up.
About OM... Looks like my H is not the only one with 11th hour gambits. OM pulled the plug on phone contact between us, something he has never done before. He wrote me saying that since we have not talked on the phone in several months, he did not feel we should. He thinks we should just stick to e-mail, because he says it is too difficult for him to hear my voice and resist asking to see me. He says he does not want things to "escalate" between us again because I am making progress with my M.
This is a bunch of BS. I don't think it is intentional BS, but BS just the same. OM is not selflessly interested in the success of my M. No, I am pretty sure the reason he does not want a phone conversation is because he knows I am gearing up to "say my piece" and he does not want to have to deal with a BEC... (big, emotional conversation). Also, I notice that whenever OM's feelings for me are running high, he can tolerate that internal conflict only for a short while and then he shuts down. I know that when I said I wanted to cut off, it must have brought some of his feelings to the surface, hence all his disparaging commentary about my M and H. But now OM has reeled his emotions back in, and is now acting like the master negotiator he IS... He knows the thing to do when someone is backing away (as I am )is to do the unexpected and back away yourself, rather than try to hang on. Hence, his little "no more phone then" gambit.
I am sure he thought I would panic and beg him to let me speak with him, as I normally would. NYET. I decided to maintain authenticity while also staying my course. I told him that it is impossible to have a real dialogue on e-mail, and that my feelings were very hurt that he no longer wished to speak with me, especially at a time when it is important that we do speak, but that I would respect his wishes, of course. He wrote back trying to soften the blow of his decision, and of course we exchanged several more unnecessary e-mails on this ridiculous topic.
I spoke with my father, who knows my whole situation well, and my feelings about it. He says that because I do not want to be OMs mistress, I made the right decision months ago by cutting off meetings. He says he is 110% sure OM would have never left his W for me if I continued to see him, since OM's marriage is fairly good. I confessed to my dad that I still have irrational hope in my heart for me and OM, and Dad says stay the course anyway and cut things off. He says that by "holding onto the ball" so tightly all year, I have never given OM a chance to catch it. He says the only thing to do is throw this ball to OM and see if he catches or lets it drop. My dad points out that doing this is not a "gamble," (as I have always thought of it) because I don't have OM anyway, so there is nothing to loose.
Strangely, my dad believes that when I totally cut from OM, and successfully stay away, there is a good chance OM will come back ready to deal. I told him "No way, dad, OM will let this ball drop, he has no kids, but he has too many other solid reasons why he does not want to bust up his M." But my dad said "Mark my words, if he cares for you, it will not matter what obstacles are in the way, you will hear from him."
This conversation with my dad was very comforting to me. It makes me feel stronger in my decision to stop all contact with OM. Because, I think my dad is right, S... if OM's feelings for me are strong enough, he will not let me go no matter what, and if they are not strong enough, then nothing lost. My dad says that under NORMAL circumstances a man's feelings for a woman can increase over time, and lead to a desire to further the R, but that in my situation, spending more time with OM will not help... my dad says that giving him more time may indeed increase OM's feelings/attachment to me, but because he is M, he will always try to have his cake and eat it too, as long as I continue to be involved with him, there would be no reason to give up W. This makes me feel better about giving up on OM NOW rather than later.
My dad is very "back east," urban, and has a sort of "people will be people" viewpoint of these sorts of situations. (He "dated" two married women back in his day, with not much guilt!). My dad is more about strategy than anything else. He seems to think that since I care deeply for both men and since (right now) my feelings for OM are strongest, that it is important for me to leave the door cracked open with OM, especially since the future with H is so uncertain.
Dad seems to think I should take a savvier atitude with OM. He said "Hon, you were involved with this OM 13 years ago, and now again... what do you want with him, exactly?... be completely honest with yourself." I said "To spend the rest of our lives together." He said "Have you ever TOLD him that?" I said "No! Of course not! I could barely get him to take me to a movie! I have told him I want to steal him from his W, so that we could have a real relationship, but I have never talked about spending our lives together, I think it would scare the pants off him."
My dad said "This is such a big mistake women make, trying to negotiate for a goal that is not even made perfectly clear, or setting their sites too low. You should say whatever you feel you need to say to OM, and tell him that you want the two of you to spend your lives together, then stay off his radar screen and let him grapple with that. You may never see him again, but if you do, he'll be where you want him. This is the way to go. Since you are firmly decided that you don't want to be a side-dish, you have nothing to loose, and the worm could turn with OM, you never know for sure. Meanwhile, you get to get out of limbo and move on with your life and fully attend to your M if you want."
Uggghhhg! This is not how I had planned to break off with OM. I was going to neatly CLOSE with OM, you know, the usual "breaking up" routine, not just up the ante and stay away. Twice before I have "closed" with OM, so he is expecting my usual break-up melodrama.
I have already said almost all I have to say to OM. When school finishes in a few days, I am going to say the last bit, and spill all the beans as my dad recommends, then BAM, I'm gone. No parting words, no goodbye. That will be SO hard for me, but I feel it's best...
I think it will EASIER for me to stay away from him like this, because I will feel like it's in his hands now, not mine. My dad says it has always been in his hands, not mine. He's right, the choice has always been OM's, and he chose W last summer, after agonizing over the conflict. But he has never had to face the results of that choice, which is loosing me. I think he will stand firm, but since I do not like his decision, I am not going to make it any easier for him by giving us closure and breaking the tension of his conflict. Let him sweat it out, wondering if I am back with H, or on my own, or perhaps abducted by aliens. Let him wonder if I still worship him, and if his W will ever care about sex, or anything except shopping.
However, it will be important for me to not "hope" for OM to contact me. I have to "fully close" this R out, in my OWN mind and heart, AND I PLAN TO!... otherwise, I feel my M (or any future R) will be sabotaged by this loose way of cutting off with OM.
Anyway, I discussed my dad's thoughts with H. Because I do not want to finish with OM in any way that would make H feel as if I weren't "really done." H says he is going to pull the chair out from under my poor old Dad when we see him next. At least we are trying to keep a sense of humor. H says he does not care how the hell I cut off with OM at this point. He says "When you are as done as you can be with him, let me know and we'll take it from there."
Whew! Girl you can write! The writing HAS to be cathartic though, judging by how much you do and how much thought goes into it.
Interesting about your post, as the overwhelming majority has to do with the OM, and your hoping he chases you after this gambit. To me this means you really haven't made up your mind about much of anything in the way of cutting him off. I looked over your string of posts and surmised:
Optimist-Pessimist - I really have yet to see much optimism from you Passionate-Reserved Passionate - yep! Active-Passive Active - but doing the same thing over and over.... Concrete-Abstract - seems like you deal quite a bit in theory and supposition to me. Decisive-Not Decisive? Have you made one that you have stuck with? Spendy-Thrifty Not Addressable Sensitive-Critical Seem sensitive to your needs, not very sensitive about your H's. Tactful-Blunt Your exchange with your H about his OM seemed a bit less than tactful Idealist-Cynic Idealistic yes, but that is frustrating you too. Carefree-Worrier Carefree? A - you have been doing alot of worrying here.
I just point out how people see other people is all. You might see yourself one way, but does your husband really see you in that light too?
I also pointed out a few posts back that your OM was using your emotions against you to keep you on the side where he wants you. " and is now acting like the master negotiator he IS... He knows the thing to do when someone is backing away (as I am )is to do the unexpected and back away yourself, rather than try to hang on. Hence, his little "no more phone then" gambit." Are we now in agreement that he is doing this?
A - this post makes it clear to me that you really still want the other man, and failing that you are too scared to do either stay or go from the man you are with.
I would just say this: make a decision! You will feel better after that. You will have some control and say over your life, instead of wallowing in the limbo that you have been in. It won't be easy from the get go, but the sooner you make one, the sooner you can be happy. Happiness will take awhile though, whether you decide to stay or go. Staying in your current situation only brings you unhappiness, there is no upside. Making a decision and sticking with it presents the upside of you moving forward with your life, and at least pursuing happiness.
I would say right now you aren't really pursuing happiness, just contemplating it. Contemplation is a good thing, except when you do it for too long!
A - I am not intentionally being hard on you. I only read what you write and respond.
My personal experience. When the bomb was dropped on me, I knew not how to deal with it at all. I did tell her that my end goal, no matter what she saw was her and I together again. I tried to stick to that, but I had limits too. If I had read DR & DB, or knew of this site then, things might have been different. When it got where I couldn't take the pain anymore, and nothing seemed to be changing, I made a decision to divorce. I still feel that she was supposed to be the love of my life, but I couldn't wait any longer in limbo. It took awhile, but now I know everything happens for a reason. I took what I learned from that experience, plus the experience of dating other women and kept learning. I am now a happy person, and I am sure there is someone for me out there. If not, I am a happy person anyway!
A - let go of the thought of the OM. If you can't find it in yourself to be with your H, then let go there too. It may be a relief for both of you. In any case, concentrate on yourself and make yourself happy. Find a way not to need someone else to be happy. Once you can do that, good things happen!
"Make decisions from the strong part of you, not the weak." -- Dr. Laura Schlessinger
"My basic principle is that you don't make decisions because they are easy; you don't make them because they are cheap; you don't make them because they're popular; you make them because *they're right*." -- Theodore M. Hesburgh, President, Notre Dame
I'll admit I've stopped by several times and not found the right words to say. Much of what I would say would fall close in line with the advice that you have been given by sinjin and cathy47.
I do have a question for you though and I appologize if it's already been addressed. Does om's w have any idea about your r with her h?
and one other word of caution..never believe what anyone tells you about their spouse especially if there is a possible alterior motive behind it. This is in regard to your comment about om's w's unlikely hood to ever be interested in anything other than shopping. Unless you know her on a personal level you have no right to make such a comment. I could easily claim that my h wants to be nothing more than a financial provider and give you plenty of examples to back my statement but I would be giving you a false impression.
One other comment as well...a few posts earlier you remarked at not wanting to have some weird open marriage with your h...sorry to have to point out but you clearly have been having an open marriage it's just up to now been one sided.
Thanks for the comments, LL... no, OM's W has no idea of the A. Yes, I am very aware that spouses often give warped views of their mates when talking to the OP. But actually, OM has never said a harsh word about his W to me. The comment I made was an impression I formed on my own, from many conversations OM and I have had, both many years ago, and now. I do think I have a right to make a comment on her or anyone... people on the forum make horribly negative and unfair comments about their spouse, or (especially) spouse's OP all the time, and never get scolded... I don't see why I should not feel free to make comment on W in any way I see fit, so long as I do not use profanity or reveal her identity. I do not think she should be "off limits" for comentary just because she is the W. All coments are always biased in some way. Rest assured, I know for a fact that OM's W has some very fine personal qualities, of course! Most W's do, most people in general do.
As for my M being "an open M" at present, I disagree. An open marriage is a lifestyle choice where both parties agree to and are comfortable with sexual and/or emotional involvements outside the marital twosome.
I do not pass judgement on people who choose that lifestyle, truly... I only called it "weird" because it would be weird for me and H. My H and I have not chosen to have an open M, nor are we "comfortable" with extramarital involvements, as people in open M's are. Far from. This year has been torture for both of us.
To me, it is not fair to call my M "open" just because we are honest about our infidelities. I realize that most A's happen in secret... but does that mean that lying and sneaking around in order to preserve the illusion of monogamy is somehow not an "open" M, and mine is? That does not make sense or seem fair.
I realize my H and I are all screwed up THIS year (going on fourteen months to be exact) but keep in mind we have been married almost 14 years, 13 of which have been totally momogamous. We both feel we are at a crossroads now, and may decide to reconcile or split... but "open M" is is not something we have , or want to have. What we have is an M in a classic infidelity crisis, minus the lies.
Thanks, S for the pertinent quotes and your comments.
Yes, believe it or not, even though you make some good points about the "opposites" I list about me and H...H would agree in full with my take on that. For example, when I say I am "carefree" I do not mean that I am perfectly so at all times (especially in a crisis!)only that , in comparison to H, we are quite opposites in that and many ways. My family has noticed that from the very beginning. I don't think it's an insurmountable M problem, but is a big issue.
Yes, I know most of my post this time was about OM... because that's where I'm at right now, dealing with that. I can't deal with the M in earnest till I deal with that. That is the one thing I do feel sure of.
Yes, clearly I still do really want OM and still have hope still, I have always been the first to admit that, but I am tired of being in limbo and trying to end with him despite those feelings, in hopes the hope will fade in time! I think my feelings are part of the letting-go process... they must be, because so many H's and W's on this forum post about their spouse going thru the same conflicted feelings about the OP.
When all is said and done, I am trying to end an R with someone, an R that is a big part of me, and that I would like to continue in almost as many ways that I would like to end! That is hell. I have already "decided" to end it, and that was really hard, but DOING IT is even harder, and sticking to it will probably be hardest of all. Yeah, maybe the reason it is so hard is because (as you imply), my decision itself is not solid enough. I don't know. It's as solid as I can make it right now, so I gotta work with that, and hope it works.
Yes, I agree that OM may be consciously or unconsciously manipulating my feelings to keep me in limbo. Or, who knows, he has been very conflicted about me from the beginning and I have always led the thing, so he might truly wish this to be over now, and is trying to help me get over him by nixing phone contact! I just don't know. I am suddenly tired, actually, of trying to guess H's motives and OM's motives... the possibilities are endless, and I barely know my own motives.
I am trying my best to follow thru on my decision, and that's all I can do... one day at a time, trying my best.
A lot of what you say is very wise, S... and I do take it to heart. Thank you!
Quote: Thanks for the comments, LL... no, OM's W has no idea of the A. does that not tell you anything about his "integrity" at least in regard to relationships? Yes, I am very aware that spouses often give warped views of their mates when talking to the OP. But actually, OM has never said a harsh word about his W to me. The comment I made was an impression I formed on my own, through what HE has told you. from many conversations OM and I have had, both many years ago, and now. I do think I have a right to make a comment on her or anyone... people on the forum make horribly negative and unfair comments about their spouse, or (especially) spouse's OP all the time, and never get scolded... I don't see why I should not feel free to make comment on W in any way I see fit, so long as I do not use profanity or reveal her identity. I do not think she should be "off limits" for comentary just because she is the W. All coments are always biased in some way. My purpose was not to say you can't or shouldn't say whatever you want. I wasn't intending to "scold" you. I was only pointing out to you what you yourself just said "all comments are always biased in some way" do you not realize that your opinion of om's w is biased? sure you have the right to make such statements about her but that doesn't mean you are right or justified in making them as you have no real idea of how she is in the r or who she is as a person. Rest assured, I know for a fact that OM's W has some very fine personal qualities, of course! Most W's do, most people in general do.
As for my M being "an open M" at present, I disagree. An open marriage is a lifestyle choice where both parties agree to and are comfortable with sexual and/or emotional involvements outside the marital twosome. you and your h have accepted this manner (at least on your behalf) for the past year.
I do not pass judgement on people who choose that lifestyle, truly... I only called it "weird" because it would be weird for me and H. My H and I have not chosen to have an open M, nor are we "comfortable" with extramarital involvements, as people in open M's are. Far from. This year has been torture for both of us.
To me, it is not fair to call my M "open" just because we are honest about our infidelities. I realize that most A's happen in secret... but does that mean that lying and sneaking around in order to preserve the illusion of monogamy is somehow not an "open" M, and mine is? it is open because h is aware of your actions and is at least somewhat accepting of it..thus he's accepting an open m at least for you for a certain amount of time. That does not make sense or seem fair. fair? if one spouse is unaware of the others extramarital activities they are unknowingly involved in an open marriage. They may not choose to stay in the r if they knew their spouse were involved with op
I realize my H and I are all screwed up THIS year (going on fourteen months to be exact) but keep in mind we have been married almost 14 years, 13 of which have been totally momogamous. We both feel we are at a crossroads now, and may decide to reconcile or split... but "open M" is is not something we have , or want to have. What we have is an M in a classic infidelity crisis, minus the lies. yes, but through the duration of a "infidelity crisis" if the spouse is willing to hang in there while the other see's someone else or contemplates seeing someone else for the duration that they stay it is technacly an open marraige. even if a m on the brink of d. If a couple tries swinging for a year but then decides to stop were they not swingers during that time?
A.
I get the sense you feel I've meant to attack you with what I've observed. That is not my intention at all and perhaps you should ponder yourself why a view of your current marital situation as an "open marraige" is so offensive to you and what that means.
Your sit has nothing to do with me and I understand that some things are very subjective but this seems pretty objective to me. I'm not throwing my personal values, at you as there's no reason to do so.
Quote: I am suddenly tired, actually, of trying to guess H's motives and OM's motives... the possibilities are endless, and I barely know my own motives.
not surprised at your tiredness, most here can at least on some level relate to that. Thing is the only motives you should be spending any time pondering are your own as those are the only ones you can be sure of.
The writing HAS to be cathartic though, judging by how much you do and how much thought goes into it.