I think it would be a great idea to take a vacation together. A road trip would be even better. I find that I get alot of communicating done on road trips.
Maybe you and your H could agree not to"work" on the M while you are traveling, just enjoy each other's company and the sights? Take the pressure off, and you might be surprised at what you two notice in each other.
I don't know where you live, but 10 days on the road seeing and experiencing things might be nice. Beaches? Camping? Mountains? Dancing? Dining? Ballgames? Concerts? Fairs? Amusement Parks? Zoos? Museums? The possibilities for fun are endless. Just take off together with a general idea about where you are going and play it by ear!
What do you think? I think you get a 2 for 1. You get your time filled so that your mind is occupied, and you may find some nice feelings for your H too.
Certainly, travel is more than the seeing of sights; it is a change that goes on, deep and permanent, in the ideas of living. - Miriam Beard
This morning my H and I were talking and he mentioned that I seemed to be having a very rough time wrapping up with OM. I said yes, it is rough, but I knew it would be. He siad "Well, take your time, maybe you are rushing it a little too much." I said "Well, maybe... my sister is really pressuring me to end it without a bit more stalling, because she's worried about me, and I do feel rushed." He said "take your time."
This was not so unusual. But he did seem more RELAXED about me and OM lately. Last night, he made a similarly relaxed comments about his desire to let me work this out myself, on my own time frame. That is a CHANGE OF TUNE. He has always maintained he was "sick of being in limbo."
My H returned to cyber-sex last month, after a year of "waiting" for me to return to the M with no success. I did not like this, but it was only fair he should be able to do this, since though we live together, we are sorta separated, and I was not talking of giving up OM.
After my little conversations with H last night and this AM, my women's intuition told me he was suddenly too relaxed about me and OM. I questioned him about the cyber sex, which I have done on and off, and he is always very honest. He chats with the women and when he started he formed a little friendship with one of them, but it faded.
Now he has a new little friendship. I will have to omit details here, "to protect my identity" in case I ever decide to run for Supreme Court Justice, but... this woman is from a foreign country. She is my age (40) and my H has given her her ONLY fufilling sexual experience of her life. She is coming to the US on business, and to see her kids who live here. She wants to see my H aand I asked my H if he was going to see her. He said "Yeah."
I said "You MEAN, you will see her only IF I am not cut off with OM right?!?!? Surely, you do not mean you will see her if you and I are reconciling, right?"
He said "Well... come on... these delineations of yours about what we are doing are not as clear to me as they are to you... I am not all that confident about you and me, and either are you."
I said "Hold on. You make delineations too! You told me I had to give up OM before we could reconcile, which makes sense! Delineations make sense!"
He said "Yes, I did say you must give up OM before we could reconcile, but I have been thinking, maybe that was not the best approach."
I said "WHAT? You only think that now, because you want to see this foreign woman. Look, we do not want to wind up with some jacked-up "open marriage" here! We have both said that before, we agreed on that... that we did not want a lifestyle change in that direction. I am IN THE PROCESS of cutting off with OM. I plan to FINISH this process when school lets out, in another week and a half. At that time, I thought we were going to head straight back to monogamy and try to make this work. That is what you wanted, but now that you have met someone you are acting like this is just one big unclear mess, so that you can justify seeing her. What do you want?"
He said "Oh, you do not really want to break off with OM. You love OM. You have done this whole "separation" year your way, on YOUR time table, and now I am supposed to adjust my timetable based on a break up with OM?"
I said "Fine. When is she coming? Give me a date." I wanted to know this because I wanted to make SURE I was wrapped up with OM before then, and then try to reel him back in somehow before she gets here. Which will be hard, because as you all know, I am barely motivated to save my own M, even before this. Now with this turn of events, I am even more discouraged.
NO, H would not make this woman up, or exaggerate the situation to manipulate me. Never. He is absolutely not that type.
I asked him three times to tell me when she was arriving, but he sidesteps the question. He was all excited about our "post OM road trip" idea when I brought it up last week. But last night when I mentioned it he said "I think we should wait on that, till you are working again, that way we will have more money to spend." So, my guess is maybe she will be here soon, and that he did not want to be gone.
Since I was not real motivated to save this M anyway, and was hoping to feel better about it in time, maybe this is a sign that my M has run it's course. I don't know. I still love him and don't want to give up, but I do not feel like "fighting" for it any more than H felt like fighting for me.
You are panicing right now out of jealousy... Is this correct?? Just yes or no
You are feeling guilty about pushing hin in that direction, YES or NO??
YOu thought he is a great man and he will discuss issues with you and he will understand and that GAVE you little comfort ( before ) and you didn't end everything with OM YES or NO??
I see that you are incredibly smart woman,and I am sure you can appreciate that your H did listen did try to help but everyone EVEN your husband has some levels that enough is enough...
not an advice just a suggestion, either be with him COMPLETELY and continue to talk about your M issues and solve them or just go and let him have his own life...
Marriage is real and affairs are NOT
Oh s---t something just came to me, I had dreams ( not once few times ) doing this, posting this type of messages on internet, oh god, I knew my W 's affair without any evidence I knew my grandmothers death without knowing it, I knew certain things happened with my life, I never took this seriously but NOW I am scared.....
I did have dreams or thoughts or visions about excatly what I am doing now
I ve got to go
I am sure you know what to do..... because you are smart, I wish my W has same knowledge as you have...
Dont forget you are lucky person DON'T you forget that
Thanks for your response, I did ponder your questions. I do not really comprehend the upshot of what you are trying to say about your dreams and your postings, but best of luck-
Quote: You guys can't have it both ways, sorry. You can't say "Oh, look, DB methods can sway your spouse! Try it!" And then turn around and say "Shame on you Annalise for even suggesting that your spouse could or should do anything to sway you." JEEZE... talk about an INCONSISTENCY! Either Infidelity is SWAYABLE or not. Make up you minds before you all drive me batty.
Okay, I was reading through your thread and had to comment on this. You are here on this board. This board is about DBing. DBing is about changing YOURSELF, not expecting your spouse to change. Expecting your spouse to "sway" you from infidelity, is avoiding taking responsibility for your behavior.
For example, I have a serious problem with anger. And my husband has cheated on me. I suppose if he hadn't cheated or lied, or had become this wonderful upstanding man before I realized my anger was a problem, it might have changed my behavior. But because I can't change or control anyone or anything but myself, I chose to work on my issue first. Dynamics can only change when one person changes.
Your H isn't posting here - you are. We can't help your H to DB you back. You said you were going to give OM a year to come around. Please tell me that this year you are giving OM is not the same year you are "giving" your marriage. You can't work on a marriage with a third person involved.
Honestly, I am not sure you want to work on your marriage. It seems as if you are struggling with a decision to D or not. You seem really ambivalent about being married to your H. What do you need from us as posters? Are you being an advocate for misunderstood people involved in infidelity? Do you want help in making your decision about your M? Do you have anything about yourself that you feel you could or would want to change?
You seem at peace with your decision to continue to pursue OM, with the only regret being that he doesn't feel the same way about you. If you are at peace with your feelings and your decision, you certainly don't have to defend them.
I prefer that my husband be monogamous because it hurts so deeply when he hasn't been. I truly believe that if my H was in love with someone else, I would file so fast it would be crazy. Your H is choosing to deal with it. Does it hurt him? I don't know. But if it does, then it isn't fair to use him as a "safety net" in case things with OM don't work out. I am not saying you are, I am just saying that that would be enormously unfair. You seem to desire a passionate connection with someone who wants you back just as badly. It seems like neither your H or OM is giving that to you. So maybe neither one of them is the one for you?
You have a lot of really hard questions to answer, and some painful feelings to face no matter what decision you face. I wish you luck in that. I thank you for posting some thoughts that really challenged me to think about things in a different way. I will probably pop by sometime to say hi again. I hope nothing in this post offended you, and you take it as it was intended, as yet another opinion and perspective in a sea of very human people, all trying to do the best they can.
Ending with my usual Hugs to all, Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
Okay, Myrrh - read to the end before you shoot your mouth off! Sounds like you've made some really hard decisions. I am so sorry to have replied to a long-ago thought. No offense intended at all! Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
I have to say I am not surprised, and I would bet that you aren't really either. You had to know that sooner or later this could happen. Now you are getting to feel what it is like to have the shoe on the other foot.
To me you have two choices, let him go (which you would have done if the OM would've ever committed to you), or get off the can and start doing something about your M.
Not to be too hard on you here A, but you have been taking your own sweet time about deciding what to do with your M (it's all about YOU remember?) and now nature has taken it's course with your H. Is it still all about you?
If you decide you are going to be married, then commit to it. You have to start DBing your A_ _ off and make some changes in yourself. I know you have stated before you need your H to change, but first change yourself and then maybe you will see some of the changes you want in your H. He has no reason to change now, as he has nothing to lose with you, you already love someone else. He probably feels as if he has little to gain either, because you keep going back to someone who doesn't want you over him.
A - your husband has now met someone who he thinks makes him feel good about himself. When is the last time you made him feel good about himself? You have the advantage as you are with him and she isn't, so take advantage of that.
Your husband has shown EXTREME patience up to this point, so now it is your turn. No demands, just decide if you want him or not. If you do then no demands, and be the woman you want to be and your H wants you to be.
You are a very smart person, and seem to know how people interact and what they need. Put that to work for you.
I think you misunderstand my point about my H's behavior being more than honorable but less than motivating to me. But I have belabored this point so much I can't keep trying to explain it to you all who don't get it. Rest assured, my point is not in any way indicative of me avoiding responsibility or self change. One can be highly self-directed and also evaluate their own environment for motivational factors, which is healthy and helps people overcome those factors when lacking.
"Your H isn't posting here - you are. We can't help your H to DB you back."
I know! It would be nice if you could!
"You said you were going to give OM a year to come around. Please tell me that this year you are giving OM is not the same year you are "giving" your marriage. You can't work on a marriage with a third person involved."
Of course not! If you have read my posts, that should be very clear that I understand that!!!!!!! I have made that very same point to other posters in my situation!
"Honestly, I am not sure you want to work on your marriage. It seems as if you are struggling with a decision to D or not."
Yeah. I thought that was pretty clear. Struggling with that decision is my right. Divorce is still legal, last time I checked. I have no chldren at home, and H and I are STRONGLY leaning toward reconciliation, but divorce is not something we have ruled out. That is OUR option, and OUR decision, and we do not believe divorce is "wrong" or necessarily bad. D always takes adjustment, but it is not always "devastating" and we don't fear that option, if we are unable to reconcile.
"You seem really ambivalent about being married to your H."
YES, after 13 years of "relative certainty, I am currently ambivalent. Marital ambivalence is common, and usually not permanent.
"What do you need from us as posters?"
Just exactly what I have been getting from most... support, new thoughts, things to consider, challenging questions to help me examine my self, advice, etc.
"Are you being an advocate for misunderstood people involved in infidelity?"
Maybe sort of. Only because I am in the minority here. Very few "strayers" come to sites like this, because they do not WANT to consider their thoughts and actions in light of their marriage. They are not as into self insight as I am, more into denial. I am here because I am conflicted, and still care about my M. But it is not the ONLY thing I care about, in my situation.
"Do you want help in making your decision about your M?"
That would be okay, but a M is so complex that I don't really think I could share enough of it online, or enough about myself, for anyone to really help with that task in a meaningful way. My sisters are helpful with that, because they know what makes me tick, and they are on intimate terms with my M problems.
"Do you have anything about yourself that you feel you could or would want to change?"
YES! I do see MY problems in this M, and have been working on them. I am over-sensitive, and not tolerant enough, and insist on my way too often, for example.
"You seem at peace with your decision to continue to pursue OM, with the only regret being that he doesn't feel the same way about you."
At peace? You must be kidding. You have not read my posts. I am hardly at peace... but nor do I believe in TOO much public complaining about my pain and misery...doing that too much just validates those feelings. I would rather put that energy into reflecting on my situation and deciding what to do about it. I do wallow in my pain sometimes, but I try not to! It's no good.
"I prefer that my husband be monogamous because it hurts so deeply when he hasn't been. I truly believe that if my H was in love with someone else, I would file so fast it would be crazy."
Almost half of all married people "fall in love" with someone else at some point. It's human nature.
NOT ALL, but MOST women and MANY men who have affairs report afterward(when surveyed anonymously) that their WAS an emotional component to their affair, often described as "love." Of course, they DENY this to their spouses for same reasons they lied about the affair... to avoid hurting the spouse, to avoid the WORK of sharing difficult, authentic feelings, to avoid the work of filling the gaps in their marriage, and to avoid spouse's anger and judgement.
"Your H is choosing to deal with it. Does it hurt him? I don't know."
YES. He is a psychotherapist, so he has told me it hurts a little less because he TOTALLY understands the human dynamics of it, but it hurts.
"It isn't fair to use him as a "safety net" in case things with OM don't work out."
I agree. That's not what I'm doing. This is a 13 year marriage that I have been faithfully devoted to up till last May. We were looking forward to grandchildren together. I have every right to "selfishly" hang onto him and this M until we get through this crisis one way or the other, and I intend to.
"You seem to desire a passionate connection with someone who wants you back just as badly. It seems like neither your H or OM is giving that to you. So maybe neither one of them is the one for you?"
Very insightful. One of my sisters happens to agree with you. This is something I am considering. But, H and I are also considering that this connection may be able to be improved in our M, too. We have a great "foundation" and a decent connection/rapport... I just crave more, and if we start working on that , I might get it. But we are both exhausted from a long, wonderful, but contentious marriage, and having trouble getting motivated to pres on, and sometimes think we should just quit. We will work it out. Not every problem is meant to be solved lickety split.
"You have a lot of really hard questions to answer, and some painful feelings to face no matter what decision you face. I wish you luck in that."
Very true and thank you!!!
"I thank you for posting some thoughts that really challenged me to think about things in a different way."
VERY COOL. That is my bag... I want to be a psychology teacher, and am working on that degree.
"I hope nothing in this post offended you, and you take it as it was intended, as yet another opinion and perspective in a sea of very human people, all trying to do the best they can."
YES I knew this day might come. And actually I already knew a bit of what it feels like to have the shoe on the other foot, because he did the cyber-cheating thing way before my A. However, this is the only time a little "relationship" has ever formed... it is painful, but actually not as much as one might imagine, because we have been separated a year now.
This turn of events does not change the fact that I am going to finish wrapping up with OM. I feel I need to do that for ME, not just my M.
Then, I can focus on my M, and this new turn of events with H and potential-OW. Do I want H and my M? I have been ambivalent about that all year. And I still am! I can encourage myself to see my H and my M more positively, and to reaize that ambivalence is natural in this situation, and I will do that, but I cannot FORCE my feelings to come back. I hope I will be less ambivalent as I heal from OM, and begin to re-connect with H if I can.
"DB my ASS OFF?" Don't know that I can muster THAT much enthusism, S. I have barely begun grieveing the loss of another relationship, and H is starting one up, apparently. The presence of potetial-OW makes me less inclined to DB, not more. Here's why...
The facts: H KNEW I was fading from OM, and KNEW about the real steps I was taking to cut it off (such as no visits or phone calls with OM in almost 4 months, and recently verbalizing to H and OM my intention to end it, after I said my piece to OM). My H also knows I have been on this DB site. I also engaged in many productive talks with him about how we might improve our M and I suggested a trip with him and expressed genuine enthusiasm about healing our marriage, as a team.
Yes, I had an open A, I realize that!... but H has clearly sabotaged this reconciliation at the 11th hour... most men on this forum with straying wives would KILL to be in his shoes, with finally a real chance to reconcile with their "selfish" W's after a year of zero progress, and what does my H do as soon as I start talking and acting seriously about coming back? He starts up a cyber affair...
I'm not saying I don't "deserve" it or that it isn't his "right"... sure... fine... I deserve it!!! And it's his right!!! ZERO argument from me there, S...
I'm just saying that it's reconciliation-sabotage, and I'm not sure how I feel about DB-ing under those circumstances. Maybe thisis just our marriage coming to some kind of "natural close" now that the kids have left the nest. I need to talk with H some more about our options, after I end with OM, and I'll then decide...
If DB is going to be a team effort, I'm in!!! If he's not fully "in," though, I am uncertain what my decision will be. I may just cut losses in that case. I'm not much of a crusader at heart... I'm into MUTUALITY... I'm TIRED of crusading with OM, but at least, for whatever reason, I was highly motivated to do that in this one exceptional case in my life. I am not highly motivated to single-handedly DB (crusade) with H. He "deserves" it no doubt...but I am exhausted, stressed, and terribly ambivalent about my M, and not even sure solo-DB (crusading) is an effective strategy. Actually, I think MOVING ON might bring someone back from an OP (or cure ambivalence on both sides) just as quick or even quicker, for all I know. I think it's a risk either way.
