I am having trouble with desire and other validated sense of self as described in PM. We are to become more differentiated, which means less reliance on others for validation. So seeking the desire of another is NOT differentiated. So I should stop worrying about the desire of another. So I guess I need to work on NOT wanting the desire of another. But then a PM is described as a marriage between two that DESIRE each other. Our own integrity should prevent us from staying married to people that do not desire us. Afterall, would it make sense to marry someong that you know does not desire you. So after 15-20 years, is that really any different, should a person belittle themselves by staying with a spouse that does not desire them?
So here is where I get confused:
1) To differentiate my self I must not want the validation(Desire) of my spouse. 2) It is a violation of my inegrity to be married to someone that does not want(desire) me. 3) But ending my marriage for not receiving desire means that I want desire, which prevents me from being undifferentiated in #1 above.
I was thinking about this in the midde of the night as I lay far away from my wife in bed. She came to bed and said goodnight and then rolled to her side clear up against the side of the bed with her back to me like she does EVERY night. So there I am thinking that I want to touch her, and yet, the little voice in my head says no. I tell myself that I need to wait for her to make the move on me, which of course will never happen. I then tell myself to stay cool, she probably won't touch me, and I need to somehow be ok with that. Now I could alter the situation by actually tap her on the shoulder for sex, but that violates my integrity since that would feel like me using her body, even if she gets into it. So there I am thinking that I can stay close to her without gettting to upset, but at the same time thinking that I can not stay married to a women like this that does not desire me. So on the one hand I think I am differentiating, but at the same time Not differentiating, and then feeling bad about the whole situation. I just can not resolve this catch-22 in my head.
Quote: We are to become more differentiated, which means less reliance on others for validation.
That's true. Note the bolded part of the sentence.
Quote: So seeking the desire of another is NOT differentiated. So I should stop worrying about the desire of another.
Not quite. NEEDING the desire of another, for the purpose of DEFINING yourSELF is not differentiated. Yes, you should stop worrying about whether your W desires you for now and concentrate on defining yourSELF within yourSELF and FOR yourself, so that you do not DEPEND on validation from your wife in order to "see" yourself. Maybe this is where you're getting hung up. What you're striving for here is to know who you are, and be cool with that, without being dependent on what your WIFE "approves of" about you to tell you who you are. Does that make sense?
Quote: 1) To differentiate my self I must not want the validation(Desire) of my spouse.
You're confusing validation with desire. They are NOT the same thing. Does this help remove some of your confusion?
Quote: 2) It is a violation of my inegrity to be married to someone that does not want(desire) me.
This is almost certainly true.
Quote: 3) But ending my marriage for not receiving desire means that I want desire, which prevents me from being undifferentiated in #1 above.
Scratch #3 off the list entirely, it is useless as a point. Ending your marriage is NOT your only option, even if your W doesn't suddenly jump up and down with desire for you (and she almost certainly won't, at first anyway). OF COURSE you want desire, but WANTING and NEEDING (as part of your self-definition) are two different things.
The thing that will tell you that you are on the right track is when you become more interested in examining yourself and your role in the marriage than in pining for desire and validation from your wife. You will become less needy and more introspective. It will feel as if a great weight has lifted from your shoulders, and you will suddenly see things in a new and different light. You may even be able to see things from your wife's POV.
I can so relate to this post. Kind of funny before I got on-line I was reading the DB book and something I read was that we have to know who we are and be okay withourselves. And the things our spouse does for us and the feelings the contribute should be incing on the cake not the entire cake.
Hi CeMar, I empathize with your need to feel desired, and I am struggling with the same thing. At this point in your marriage, it's not going to magically happen. You have to be willing to take the small steps...steps that really don't feel so great. It's more like asking her to make the effort to connect, with the hope that at some point natural desire will kick in. I feel you need to talk to her directly and let her know that it's not okay for the two of you to go to sleep on opposite sides of the bed. Let her know that you understand she needs her sleep and her space, but that you need a connection with her. Tell her what you have in mind (perhaps 15 min of hugging is a good place to start) and ask if she has any suggestions. It will feel like effort and work, because that's what change is...and you have to be willing to go through it. Believe me, I know exatly what it is that you want, what we all want on this board, but you have to get there step by step. I get tripped up all the time by sensing my H's lack of true desire, but over time, he has made increasing effort and we have had some great moments. It is not easy, but you have to jump in and get started, and give up the fantasy that she will just desire you. J
I agree totally with IJ. Something else I have picked up from the book is that we wait around for feelings to change before we change our behaviors.. I know I have. But it is when we change the behaviors that the feelings change. I hope I make sense. Also I read my last post and I hope I didn't sound harsh. What I said I ment but I wasn't very clear..I didn't realize that. And CeMar I can also relate so much it hurts.. It makes me feel crazy at times because I can get other men to find me attractive but all I really want is H to find me attractive and I don't feel it is there something I have struggled with for three years. Hang in there and I think IJ has words of wisdom. All I can say Is I understand and hope it gets better.. ;-)
Cemar: Does your wife's opinion of you define who you are, as a man? If it does, then this is other validation. If you can look at yourself and see an attractive and virile guy, then you are self validating. The trick is to be able to hold on to yourself even though you feel yourself slipping towards NEEDING that validation from W. Not wanting it, but NEEDING it. Do you see the distinction?
Also I didn't get a clear answer from you regarding her desire cycle being backwards. Basically are you saying that you do not accept that as a legitimate thing?
And that she must reverse how her body operates if she hopes to remain married to you?
Cause I think that wanting a person to be passionate and expecting them to completely change how their body operates are two totally different things.
I want desire, I do not necessarily need it from her. But if she can not provide it, then in the long run I must find it from someone else. So I am not sure if this is need or want. I can say this, that life without a lover sucks. And Lovers DESIRE each other. So is this need or want, I am not really sure.
As for how she works, she can get arroused if I do lots of foreplay, assuming I don't get rejected first. I can understand the arrousal thing being backwards for her. But I also understand that much of DESIRE in women is a state of mind. I want all the things that you HD women do. I want LOTS of affection, I want flirting, I wants LOTS of sex with lots of variation. I want deep emotional connection in the process. I want foreplay FOR ME. I want oral sex FOR ME. I basically want it ALL. I want the FULL PM.
And most importantly, I want it ONLY when she wants to do it. It must NEVER seem like effort on her part. It must NEVER seem like willingness on her part. I want the women I married to return. I married her specifically because she WAS HD. I would NEVER even consider dating a woman in the condition she is in today. No man in their right mind would date a women that has little desire for sex. That is so incredibly INCOMPATIBLE.
From everything I have seen and read, some women are great at sex, and others are horrible at it. And the difference, always their DESIRE for sex. I guess this is why Michelle always states up front that the HD partner has to really show empathy for the LD. It is her way of saying that you have to set your sights really low as the LD partner will never really be capable of matching up with a HD partner.
So, Honeypot, if her arrousal pattern is backwards, how can a couple overcome this without the Man having to do all the work. And how do you get it to the point where the woman LOVES to ML on her own. Afterall, sex only truly works when both people WANT to be there.
Cemar: Did you read any of Eyesopened posts? She is a formerly LD wife who is reaping her rewards as I write.
And, to refute your hypothesis, she has not turned HD. Her sex drive is not in overdrive. But her willingness to please her husband was increased by 100%. She wants to please him and she wants to feel desire. Most of all, she wants him to be happy and to feel loved. Isn't that what we all ultimately want from our spouse??
Would this be enough for you? If you knew that your wife WANTED you to stimulate her to feeling desire, would this be okay in your mind?
I see you going down a pointless road, in insisting that your W become HD. That is like her insisting that, in order for your marriage to succeed, you must become LD. You could never do it, although you might have some periods of semi-success.
I don't personally expect my H to become HD, although he definitely has his moments. And in fact, with many women out there he would be the HD partner.
I do expect him to WANT to WANT me and to make a serious effort to put our sexual relationship at the forefront of his life.
If your focus has been on turning your wife HD, then I can see why she is resistant. Perhaps you can change your focus and she will respond better...?
While I can certainly identify with the feelings you express, I just can't go along with you on this one. There's no doubt that I have enough problems and failures of my own, but I sure see some big ones in your last remarks - ones I've seen from you before. How about:
Quote: No man in their right mind would date a women that has little desire for sex.
I take exception to that. Are you saying that the LD husbands of all of the women on this board are not in their right minds? Are you saying that anyone who can't see the value of a good woman outside of the bedroom is out of their mind? What about an honest, loyal, faithful, supportive, woman who loves life, loves and cares for her children and does her best to provide a nurturing home for them and her husband? Is she worth less than a woman who wants to f**k three times a day? I think not.
Quote: It is her way of saying that you have to set your sights really low as the LD partner will never really be capable of matching up with a HD partner.
Sorry, I can't buy that either. There's NOBODY on this board that gets less than I do (at least not that I've seen) but even I haven't given up hope. If you think having an LD partner is "so incredibly INCOMPATIBLE" and if you think that the LD partner "will never really be capable of matching up", then what's the point of even trying? What's the point of being here? Why not dump the old bag and go find some hot one?
But the kicker is this one:
Quote: So, Honeypot, if her arrousal pattern is backwards, how can a couple overcome this without the Man having to do all the work
Backwards? Did you really say backwards? So anybody with a different arousal pattern than yours is backwards and has a problem that needs to be "overcome"? I hate to burst your bubble, but horny as I am, I still doubt that I would have much interest in ML with someone displaying that kind of attitude. Why would I want to ML with someone who thinks that the way I get aroused is backwards and needs to be fixed?
I'm sorry to flame you. As I've said, I agree with a lot that you've said as far as wanting to be wanted and wanting your W to ML with you because she WANTS to ML with you. But I also have problems with some of this kind of stuff. I don't know, I'm new here and may well be reading you wrong, but it sure isn't coming across as understanding and trying to work on your differences.
LD men would love to be with LD women. I think my own father-inlaw and mother-inlaw are exactly this way. THey have not had sex in probably 40+ years. Can I understand the mindset of a LD man or women, not in a million years, it is totally foreign to me. But that does not make them wrong, just different.
Quote: Are you saying that anyone who can't see the value of a good woman outside of the bedroom is out of their mind? What about an honest, loyal, faithful, supportive, woman who loves life, loves and cares for her children and does her best to provide a nurturing home for them and her husband? Is she worth less than a woman who wants to f**k three times a day? I think not.
The LD women you describe is full of very admirable qualities, and yet, that type of women can make NO deposits in my Love Bank. She is not talking my love langauge at all. The sexual women would be making BIG deposits in my love bank. Since I have 3 children, they need mom #1, so I have to keep trying, at least until they are grown up enough.
Quote: If you think having an LD partner is "so incredibly INCOMPATIBLE" and if you think that the LD partner "will never really be capable of matching up", then what's the point of even trying?
What I was trying to say here is that Michelle says several times in SSM that the HD man needs to show A LOT of empathy towards his LD wife. I believe that this is code for "Realize that they have much to overcome, and even their best efforts will not be what you were hoping for, so please set your sights MUCH lower." The question is if I can find a level of acceptable desire with her that she has any realistic shot at filling.
As far as the Backard arousal pattern, I meant that some people expeience desire in a way that is very differnet then most people. My wife can experience arrousal if I do enough foreplay. But this type of sex sucks. There is no connection emotionally being made. It's like going shopping all day every Saturday with someone that is only "Willing" to shop. They are such a drag on the shopping experience that eventually, the one with more desire for shopping says, what the heck, why bother shopping with this person anymore. Who wants to drag someone around that does not love shopping. Sex works the same way. I want to have affection and sex with someone tha WANTS the affection and sex almost as bad as I do. Froom what I see from my wife and from the wives of men on here, these LD women don't see sex as an EMOTION. They are hung up on the frequency and the mechanics of sex. They have to get WAY beyond that. Sex is something that you have to DESIRE in order to be good at it. LD women tend to be clockwatchers at sex, and this totally RUINS the event. I have seen my wife as both HD and LD. In her LD state, she is the complete opposite of what I want to be married to. Every book or website I have read gives examples of solutions to the HD/LD problem. They all show examples where the LD actually regained their HD abiblities, or at least learned to fake being HD very well. I have never seen a solution where remaining LD worked.
Remember, in PM, for a truly passionate marriage to exist, the spouses must learn to desire each other, and that includes physical desire. The name of the game is DESIRE.
