180: as in degrees. About-face. Do the opposite of what is usual. Try something completely different. Surprise by acting (reacting) opposite to what is expected.
Hi Chocolateeyes, I was over at the KLA forum and noticed that you posted here.
If you have a copy of TSSM marriage, Michele explains what a 180 is in the chapter, "Melting the Ice", on pages 160 - 170(hardcover edition published in 2003). She states:
Quote: Think about where you and your spouse get stuck. Take stock of what you're doing in those situations, and then promise yourself that the next time you encounter that old situation, you'll do something different. My suggestion is that you do a 180 -- you change the way you and your spouse interact by doing the exact opposite of whatever you've been doing that hasn't been working. Weiner Davis, Michele. The Sex Starved Marriage, p. 160. New York: Simon and Schuster, 2003.
It helps to think of marriage as a system or perhaps even a dance. The parts of a system are interdependent and seek balance or homeostasis (there are more factors but these are the two I always remember ). Therefore, if one part of the system (you) changes, it may cause other parts of the system (your wife) to also change. However, you often can't predict what the other spouse's change will actually be (it may be positive, it may be negative, it may be major, it may be minor, it may be 2 steps forward and 1 step back once or several times before balance is achieved, it may be temporary or permanent, or perhaps your change has no noticeable effect on your partner). That's why Michele's advice to monitor results is crucial IMHO. She also advises to look for patterns in your marriage and to think back to when things were better and identify what was different then. A problem also arises because of the familiarity of the "old steps". In other words, even if the changes are positive, there can sometimes be a pull on one or both spouses, even the one who initiated change, to go back to the old way of interacting simply because it feels familiar, which is why her advice to monitor the actual results rather than rely on feelings and to stay the course were very helpful for me.
Michele gives a couple of examples of 180s in TSSM (same pages as above) that illustrate the technique.
In my marriage, I did a 180 by turning the frequency of LM over to my husband (an approach advocated by Dr. Pat Love who wrote the foreward to TSSM and that also followed Michele's advice to "just do it" and to keep doing what's working). That didn't mean that I gritted my teeth or that he had to beg or ask. ML with him was fun and pleasurable; he was only dissatisfied with the frequency. In our case, I made myself available and approachable (much easier once I realized that I had an arousal pattern supported by research cited in TSSM, which was that touching my husband or being touched by him led to arousal especially if I already felt emotionally close to him) and often initiated because he liked that. The change in him (besides being happier and more relaxed) was that he started spending more time with me and being more affectionate and romantic (fairly common according to Michele in TSSM). But, we also exhibited a little bit of the 2 steps forward, 1 step back dynamic at least once for each of us.
If he had done a 180, he could have told me how he felt when I carelessly turned down or didn't recognize his advances. This would have been a 180 because he seldom expresses his feelings especially negative feelings. Since this never happened, I can't say for sure what I would have done, but I'm almost certain I would have made the same changes as above. No matter how bad things were between us, I loved him and often wished he would tell me what he wanted (even when he initiated it was more likely to be him asking me if I felt like ML or if I wanted to ML rather than saying that HE wanted to ML). The fact that he would talk to me about his feelings also would have decreased or bridged the increasing emotional gap between us.
Also, if he'd completely stopped pursuing and initiating, that would have been a 180. I would have noticed that he seemed to have lost interest in ML and would have wanted to know why, which might have led to a discussion about how he actually felt and what he really wanted (BTW, it turns out that his need for physical affection goes far beyond ML to also include lots of nonsexual physical touch such as foot and neck rubs).
As for Schnarch, he references marriage as a system but he relies more on Murray Bowen's family systems theory, which is a bona fide THEORY, and is distinct from general systems theory, which isn't a theory so much as a way of seeing and explaining things throughout the universe (that sounds confusing, wish I could articulate it better). Bowen's theory (BTW, Bowen was a psychiatrist), which includes a specific number of distinct interconnected variables, including differentiation and multigenerational transmission, was the prevailing theory taught in my marriage and family therapy courses.
I have a degree in social work and additional counseling courses through an employer (when I decided to go for my master's degree, I chose computer science because it was far less frustrating or likely to cause harm). Most people don't realize how revolutionary and nontraditional Michele's approach is. We were taught that marriage and family therapy have dismal success rates (people who are going to divorce generally do anyway; people who want to stay married when they go into counseling usually do and it often has little to do with counseling). Also, we were taught that marriage counseling generally required the active participation of BOTH spouses and often focused on identifying and resolving family of origin issues and helping spouses to communicate and resolve conflicts better. If only one spouse entered counseling, the focus was often on whether the individual should stay in an unhappy or unsatisfying marriage and how to accept and live with the decision, rather than trying to save or improve a marriage without the participation of the other spouse. Things may have changed since then, but I'd be surprised.
Schnarch's approach is also innovative and revolutionary (and also probably has a higher success rate than traditional therapy) in combining marriage and sex therapy (usually seen as two separate disciplines with sex therapy focused more on pathology and physiology rather than interpersonal interactions) but even his case studies in PM show the active participation of BOTH spouses.
Hope this helps and that it wasn't too confusing (the more I talk about this stuff the more I realize how much I've forgotten except the caveats given to us as students to avoid the temptation to analyze other people or assume that we know what they're thinking, feeling, or experiencing. ).
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
Thanks, and thank you also, Tim, for your replies. I kept seeing references to the "180" thing on the Forum, but did'nt really understand what it was.
Quote: Also, if he'd completely stopped pursuing and initiating, that would have been a 180. I would have noticed that he seemed to have lost interest in ML and would have wanted to know why, which might have led to a discussion about how he actually felt and what he really wanted (BTW, it turns out that his need for physical affection goes far beyond ML to also include lots of nonsexual physical touch such as foot and neck rubs).
That is what I HAVE done, exactly, and my desire for things like backscratches and just nice kissing and stuff is EXACTLY the same. But I can assure you, my wife NEVER ASKED what was up, and we've now gone on this way for almost three years. I know that she KNOWS that I'm frustrated and sad; we've talked about it before in our marriage many times. I thought that this "180" or "he who cares the least, wins" gambit would at least get her ATTENTION, but it has not.
Upon recommendation from the female C, I've tried turning off the affection too. It was supposed to draw her attention to the fact that we weren't intimate, or maybe make her see how it feels to be ignored, or something along those lines. If she even noticed, she hid it well.
Chocolate, I guarantee that she has noticed. Whether or not she shares it with you might be another story.
When you say you've done a 180, does that mean that you have backed off from initiating sex, or have you backed off of ALL affection?
In my marriage, I took what I was given for years and then...I don't know..one day I just snapped. I suspect that it was because I had a two month old baby at the time and was already on thin ice, sanity wise. That was literally the last time that I have been willing to be silent or "go with the flow" in regards to MY sex life.
I am not doggin your choice for celibacy, I am just wondering how on earth you remain affectionate and kind? I think that if I had expressed a need for more sex and it was not met with something along the lines of cooperation, that I would have shut off myself completely. Now, admittedly, this would have been the WRONG thing to do but I was at the end of my rope at that point.
I'm sure you're right; my wife is not stupid, and I am sure that she's noticed. I guess it would be more accurate to say that she hasn't done anything ABOUT it, either in terms of confronting me on what's bothering me, why I've shut it off completely, or -- God forbid -- show some more affection of her own.
To clarify, I have not only stopped initiating sex, but I have stopped with ALL affection that is beyond what she gives me. This, like others' stories on the board, consist of a goodbye peck on the lips or cheek. We don't even kiss each other goodnight anymore.
Simply put, I got tired of being the ONLY one in our marriage who would show any affection at all, despite my having had MANY conversations with her over the years about how important it was to me. She gives our kids backscratches, but not me, altho she knows I LOVE it. Now even if her SEX drive isn't what mine is, how in the world would that "hurt" anything to throw me that one bone? So no hand-holding, no affectionate kisses, and I've even stopped with the endless compliments that I used to give her about how gorgeous she looks (she still does).
As to how I remain kind, I do. I help with the dishes, help with the kids, encourage her in her pursuit of a college degree, I tell her what a great mother she is (and she is). We are simply best friends now, and it doesn't seem to bother her.
Have I given up? I guess so, but I gotta be honest with you all, the ENDLESS BATTLES, CONVERSATIONS, NEGOTIATIONS, ad nauseum, that many of your LDs are having to have with your ND/LD spouses wears me out JUST READING IT. I cannot even IMAGINE going thru that, and STILL not getting much in the way of meaningful results. So I have chosen to just live in a sexless marriage, at least for now, while my kids are still at home and while so many other areas of my life are going well.
I'm not saying it's a SOLUTION, but it does help my day-to-say sanity.
By giving up, you are giving your LD wife the DREAM marriage. Many LD's want friendship or companionship. This is what they love. She is love starved and does not know it. But you are giving her many of the things she needs, a man to help around the house, to help with the kids, help pay the bills. In other words, she is using you, just like my wife uses me. They get most everything they need, and they don't have to be physical. They WIN!!!
My M is much the same except that I do get some affection. We do hold hands, we hug, she tells me that she loves me. But no sex and no kissing other than the good-bye pecks you mentioned.
Like you, I'm unhappy with it, but after 28 years I've learned to live with it. I'll do fine for a while, then go into a period like I'm in right now where it really gets me down. It'll be this way for a while, then I'll get back into the mindset that there's more good than bad in the relationship and decide that I can live without sex. Maybe that will get easier as I get older.
Guys, I've read the last few posts written about being celibate. I have been married for 15 years and for 14 of those, the S has been VERY saddening. However, I have tried to live the Celibate lifestyle and I explode with anger and frustration. I can not give my wife the touching she wants and not be S. The only way I could take on a life of celibacy would be to more into another room in the home when sleeping, and take on a general attitude of this is my room mate, not wife. I can not do that, but my W has pushed and pushed me into that mind set.
I have to admit when reading your posts I have felt heart broken and a general anger toward my wife and women in general. Thank GOD for ladies like Mojo and Honeypot who help me understand that this HD/LD/ND problem is not just a 'Man/Woman' problem--it is also a 'Woman/Man' problem as well.
). Therefore, if one part of the system (you) changes, it may cause other parts of the system (your wife) to also change. However, you often can't predict what the other spouse's change will actually be (it may be positive, it may be negative, it may be major, it may be minor, it may be 2 steps forward and 1 step back once or several times before balance is achieved, it may be temporary or permanent, or perhaps your change has no noticeable effect on your partner). That's why Michele's advice to monitor results is crucial IMHO. She also advises to look for patterns in your marriage and to think back to when things were better and identify what was different then. A problem also arises because of the familiarity of the "old steps". In other words, even if the changes are positive, there can sometimes be a pull on one or both spouses, even the one who initiated change, to go back to the old way of interacting simply because it feels familiar, which is why her advice to monitor the actual results rather than rely on feelings and to stay the course were very helpful for me. 