Hey Paul. Yes, I was on vacation during your intro to the group. It was during that vacation that I ML to my W for, yes, the first time since Sept 2003.
No, PM has not helped the frequency, but it is helping my attitude. I have not yet told my wife the basic deal: "I did not sign up for a celibate marriage...we need to work on this, and (the kicker), I will take your actions from this point forward as indicative of whether you are willing to work on it, and will adjust my life plans accordingly." PM is helping me realize that I deserve better treatment, that I need to be honest with myself (that I CAN'T be happy with celibacy), that I don't have to agree with everything my wife says and does, including that I don't need to agree that sex is not that important.
My W is a case. I love her very much, and, if sex had never been invented, we would be an almost perfect couple. But the sex issue is there, and, by its very dismal-ness, is HUGE, especially compared to how great everything else is. Getting her to understand that me wanting to ML is not "just about sex" has been an uphill battle, and PM has made me understand that, basically, she needs to figure it out for herself. I can't lecture her into bed. I can't use the Socratic Method to induce her to kiss me. Hell, I can't even suggest she read SSM completely to figure out where I'm coming from.
A note on her reading of SSM. She read the first chapter and said it was "your basic book telling the lower drive person to give in." Then, she read selective sections in order to show me all the things I was doing wrong. So, which is worse--having your W not read it, or having your W use it against you?
You have some hard work ahead of you. You have to decide whether your children need the two of you to be together. You need to decide if your W would actually work to improving the ML part of your marriage if you told her that you are not willing to live that way...would she choose divorce over passion? You need to figure out what you truly deserve, and whether you have the integrity to stand behind your convictions that you deserve it. It's tough. It's heart-wrenching at times. And nothing is guaranteed.
I have a 3 year-old daughter who we adopted from China, and who I think needs to see us stay together. Yet I am wrestling with the realization that maybe mom and dad aren't setting a very good example for a loving couple to this little girl. Maybe she needs to see her dad stand up for himself and for what he believes in. Which is worse, growing up and knowing that your parents stuck together just because of you, or growing up with two parents in separate homes, one of which stood up for himself?
Quote: I do plan on reading it, but I'm curious if it's really working. For example, you say I have to read it, but has it helped you? If so, how? It doesn't seem to be frequency! I can't really tell if the people advocating PM are really getting a better sex life, or if they're just learning better ways to accept the crappy sex life they've got.
I can tell you it is DEFINITELY working for me. It may not be entirely evident in my postings so far, but for sure both the quantity and the quality are way higher now than they were before I read it. Just learning that I didn't have to just wait around for W to figure things out was HUGE. Yes, we've had some heated moments, and yes, things are still not where I would ideally want them, but life is a LOT better now than it was 3 months ago. Our love for each other is growing, and I have no doubt that we're "on track to getting back on track", if that makes any sense. I can definitely see that we're on an improvement curve. We still have a LONG way to go, but we've also come a LONG way already!
For some reason the words "choose divorce over passion" really resonated with me. It sortof boils it all down to the nitty gritty, doesn't it?
Let me ask you this: Is this why you are reluctant to have any true PM discussions with your W? Do you feel that she would choose divorce over passion?
You know, I know that people out there probably struggle with my religious beliefs but this is the ONE time that I can trumpet why my situation is cool and I'm gonna do it, lol. My H would choose ANYTHING over divorce. Now that is a little screwed up in that his motivation to preserve the marriage is not 100% love and devotion for his wife, but hey it has worked in my favor.
So at times, I have felt like the Catholic church's teachings regarding marriage were a dang prison sentence but, to be truthful, it works the other way too--when you are highly motivated to avoid divorce, you are willing to entertain a lot of options that you otherwise would have poo-pooh'ed, such as increasing your passion level.
I don't know if I am explaining this well, but I had to respond.
Btw, didn't you mean "WHOM we adopted"......hmmm???
Honeypot, who is taking up your habit of picking on people's grammar and spelling due to lack a nookie.
Although it has been several years since I read the book, I can tell you Paul that it gave me a way to speak to my husband about sex. A way to dialogue with him and really GET to him, in a way that my other methods weren't doing.
So, no, just reading the book (or any book) is not going to get you more sex. Being willing to lay it on the line and deal with the consequences (the really scary part for most of us HD people) is what will change your marriage.
Giving her a book, or two or ten, is not going to do it. YOU have to be willing to spell out for her just what she can expect to happen if she decides not to make this a priority. It sucks, but trying to gently nudge her into coming to this realization on her own probably will not work.
Honeypot, whose frequency is up from 1x/6 weeks to 4x/week for two years and counting..
But HP, like you said, the sword cuts both ways. H will do anything to avoid D, but he also knows that your religious beliefs mean that you hold the same values and views. Your threats of D are bluffs - and he knows it. At least that's how it is in my M.
WB, H knows that I would pursue SOMETHING, an annulment or living in my own apartment or whatever, so it wasn't an empty threat. However, it does lessen the impact of "married for life" doesn't it!
And how can you say that your wife knows it's a bluff?! You've already divorced her over it! What's to stop you from doing it again, when the kids are grown? Don't you think your W thinks about that and worries about it? Man, I would if I were her!
Quote: Is this why you are reluctant to have any true PM discussions with your W? Do you feel that she would choose divorce over passion?
I think it is a distinct possibility.
Remember, her mantra is "You have to be okay with me saying 'no.'" And yes, I've told her, that it would be easier to take her 'no's if she said 'yes' once in a while. Her pat response: "you have to be comfortable with my 'no' before the 'yes' will come." And on and on it goes. My point is, me presenting her with the "crucible" would probably prove to her that I am not "okay" with her saying "no."
And yes, I know she loves me and would prefer to not get divorced, but there is still some doubt that she will "choose passion over divorce." This is a fear I need to face. I know this.
Thanks for asking, though. And, you're right, it should have been "whom." My grammar gets worse when I'm in a sexual deficit. Just imagine how bad I am when I'm well lubricated!
Hairdog, whom Yoda told, "face your fear you must!"
I'm with you on what needs to be said to my (and your) wife. Didn't sign up for celibacy; check. I deserve better; check. I can't be happy this way; check.
Like you I struggle with just how to communicate this. I mean, it's not like the subject has never come up. It has come up often. Sometimes I get hostility, sometimes I get apologies and promises to change. Whatever. I wrote her a lengthy letter with all this and more, which is still sitting on my hard drive ready for action. The advantage of saying it in a letter is that I can get out just want I want to say, just as I want it. From previous experience, I know that a face-to-face conversation will not work that way. Maybe I need to take a debating class. The disadvantage of a letter is it just seems wimpy. I should be able to stand there and say what I need to say, to her face. The most important thing is getting the issue on the table and working on it. I can't take much more waiting around for her to do it on her own.
"Then, she read selective sections in order to show me all the things I was doing wrong. So, which is worse--having your W not read it, or having your W use it against you?"
That is hilarious. I'm not sure of the answer to your question, but my wife would never do that. She's more into avoidance than confrontation. I'm sure she's hoping I've forgotten about the book. Maybe if she stalls long enough, I'll forget all about sex!
"You have to decide whether your children need the two of you to be together."
Yep, and that's reason 1A why there will be no divorce or seperation. They need me and I need them too. I can't imagine not being able to come home, hang out with my kids, have dinner with them, put them to bed, etc.
"You need to decide if your W would actually work to improving the ML part of your marriage if you told her that you are not willing to live that way...would she choose divorce over passion?"
Ooooooh, good question! She's very against divorce - her parents are happily married for over 40 years, and that's how she sees herself too. We shall see, I guess...
Paul, I wanted to comment on the "letter vs. talking" issue. I am a great advocate for my clients when I am talking in front of a judge. I can think on my feet, answer questions coherently, keep focused when they interrupt me, and generally get all my points made. When I am talking to my W about ML, however, I am like a deer in the headlights. I fumble, mumble, get off track, and generally do not make my points very well. I have tried to write her letters. These are literary masterpieces. They make the points logically and coherently. But when she reads them, all she sees is criticism, to which she reacts. And yes, writing letters or emails is definitely a wimpy way to make a point.
So what is the answer? I have often thought that I should stick with what works: stating my points with my written materials in front of me. It works with the judges, why not my W? That way, when the interruptions come, when she says something totally irrelevant, when she avoids answering a crucial question, I can go back to my "outline" and figure out what to do next.
I know this sounds very "formal" and perhaps somewhat obsessive, but I'm not sure what else to do.
I haven't tried writing letters to W, but I have used them successfully in dealing with D16. I just simply state at the beginning of the letter that my purpose is say my piece without interruptions and arguments. I say what I have to say and follow it up by telling her that I am very willing to either listen to or read her side. I finish it all up by telling her that if she is willing to discuss things in a calm and rational manner, I'm at her disposal. It may just be our personalities, but it has worked well for us. We've had some lively e-mail exchanges that ended up quite productive. Face-to-face conversations tend to degenerate into shouting matches. We both jump on anything the other says and start trying to score counter points. But in letters each of us can present complete and cohesive statements and are able to complete our thought/point without interruption.
I haven't tried this with W. I'm not suggesting that you try it with yours. I'm just saying that in dealing with a teenaged D, it has helped us diffuse the hostility and talk about divisive subjects in a much more calm manner.
