Your post really struck a chord with me. I wanted to take you up on your offer of talking about this subject.
My H has an OW that he has been intermittently living with... they are very involved. Unlike your sitch, my H IS ambivalent. I suspect he could define the term, actually.
But what struck me is that--like many of the WAS described on this board-- he told OW many of the same things you write here.
Quote: Over the years, he increasingly questioned the marriage, tried for a while to encourage common interests, but never really able to find any. She’s a morning person, he a night man. She’s a social person, he’s a loner. There was a big gap in their respective IQs and education. They literally had nothing to talk about. When he came home from work, they’d cook dinner, and then she’d go to bed. She wasn’t affectionate towards him.
My H said many of these things... and when I heard them, frankly I was stunned. That picture was vastly different than the marriage I experienced with him.
I guess my question is how much of these stories are reality? How much of this stuff is really justifications for walking away from a conflict that requires them to look inside at themselves? Or projecting their internal unhappiness, depression or self esteem issues onto the marriage?
Michele talks about "differences" in her books quite a bit. And when I look around, most of the happily married couples I know could also fit a lot of this scenario.
I hope I'm not offending here because that isn't my intent. I'm trying to understand my H's choices--ones so many others have made from the posts on this board-- and I really don't believe these kinds of differences are the crux of it.
Quote: He thought it a bad marriage, and believed she felt the same way. I don’t know how “hard” he tried to find an emotional connection to her before calling it quits – I wasn’t there...Let’s assume he has tried all he could.
I'm using your story as an example since it's the one posted here, but this is a generic question.
Doesn't not knowing that your spouse doesn't agree with your assessment of the marriage mean: 1. you didn't ask but assumed you could read their mind (or didn't really want to know the answer)
or
2. you asked and received a false answer?
In some cases, maybe the LBS suddenly becomes emotionally invested in the marriage when the WAS is walking away-- but my experience was that I began looking at the things my H was saying about our marriage when he began SAYING them-- it was not that he was leaving... it was that he was sitting there telling me that he felt neglected at X or Y time, that he wanted more time doing A and B-- and initially I was in shock, but I was very eager to deal with it. It was throwing out things like "morning person/night person" that made me feel like one or both of us had gone crazy.
Quote: is it sufficient to say “I am and always will be incompatible with this person” to leave?
One thing I have come to believe is that every marriage without abuse can be saved and made good-- because a marriage is what you want to make it-- but to do it is a choice and there is work involved, most of it on ourselves not our spouse. But who can say what is sufficient? That's a very individual decision that we have to make based on what we believe in.
My values about marriage are that marriage is a responsibility and a committment to love someone and protect them and work for and support each other's growth as well as our own, not an arrangement of convenience, a whim, or a vehicle to provide me with happiness. That has weighed heavily into any decisions I've been faced with.
Through DBing, I came to see how many of my interactions with my H during the beginning of our S were more about not dealing with the pain I was feeling over his A than anything else.
I suspect the same is true of his actions and choices-- that it's more about his own pain than about me. People who are not dealing with their own hurt tend to hurt others. So what seems sufficient to me is to work on myself and strive to live what I believe in.
Thanks Pen, for bringing up this subject and for wanting to discuss it. It's something I think about often and hope I've added something to the dialogue.
Wonder's post echoes many of the thoughts I had when I read your post about your background.
Quote: When we met, my h told me that his marriage was over, and they were only together because of the kids (D14, S9, and S7)... Over the years, he increasingly questioned the marriage, tried for a while to encourage common interests, but never really able to find any... He thought it a bad marriage, and believed she felt the same way.
Thus the story as presented to me. I’ve been able to substantiate pretty much all of it, either through personal observation, or through involuntary comments the children made. He's a just man. The one error of judgment he made was to think she also considered it a bad marriage – she didn’t.
Isn't it mostly like that? The WAS tells OP that "the marriage is over" (although they are still at home!) when the spouse doesn't even know it.
The WAS often claims to have "tried to work on the marriage", while it appears to the LBS that they were doing quite a lot to sabotage it, in fact.
All marriages go though periods of lull and stress. If at this point an OP appears on the scene and the WAS is in the throes of 'limerance', what earthly chance does a dull old marriage (with responsibilities, and history) stand against the excitement of 'starting again' with one's new and better love?
I imagine that even those who claim that they and their spouses have NOTHING in common did once find their spouse interesting and exciting enough to date and marry?
My H claimed at bomb time that the only thing we had in common was our D. Nothing could be further from the truth. What does he have in coomon with OW no.1? She was a good friend of mine, so I do know her. And I can tell you that they have this in common -
1) She is a heavy smoker, H has started smoking post bomb.
2) She is up for a certain practice in bed.
Er, I can't think of anything else!
Same field of creative work? Intellectual parity? Common hobbies and activities? Common general interests? Nope, nope, nope and nope.
But then, who am I to say?
Livnlearn
PS: In the early years of our marriage, H used to say we should have got together even earlier (we had been friends for seven years before). Sadly, rewriting of history is all too common in these situations.
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Let me chime in here: Most often, the adulterer tells the OW or OM whatever will get teh OW or OM to feel POOR HIM, LET ME MAKE IT BETTER. Do you REALLY think any adulterer or wannabe adulterer would say: I am running away from my responsibilities and need someone who will give me a b---job with a smile and who will make me feel special and wonderful. I have too many resentments against my spouse and am not willing to change for him/her but want to forget MY mistakes and start over cause it is easier. My opinion is that the WAS is stuck in believing that REAL love is the puppy love, limerance, falling in love....and that despite children, job stress, financial concerns, kids in school, TEENAGERS, that that REAL love should always be there or else something is wrong. Most of the WAS were rather pampered and spoiled and are self absorbed if not selfish...and the 'neglect' they often FEEL (which is real to them) is more that their spouses have asked for a little reciprocity in that regard and the adultery or WBA says: what, you want something from ME? OK, I am venting here, but it galls me that there has never been a wandering spouse who says: I'm just not willing to take on the responsibilities of marriage and committment because its too easy to find someone who doesn't know my mistakes and will go all out trying to please me. Falling in love is FUN and EXCITING. Being a husband and dad and grandad isn't that much fun.
Oh well: anyone who has been or is considering being an OW or OM needs to understand that the philanderer isn't going to tell them the truth about much..only a version based on blaming the spouse. Tell the truth, has their ever been a philanderer who didnt' tell the OW OR OM: SHE (or HE) just didn't understand me. Good grief.
This is not to blame the OW OR OM who has a different kind of blame/guilt/shame to bear. Put the blame on whichever one goes looking too, no matter how weak, depressed , MLC'd or 'misunderstood'. And yep, I do have no fondness for women who make themselves available to married men because it is somethign I couldn't/wouldn't do and I expect more from women. But that's just me and I don't tend to judge people who have that in their past but I do not associate with those who have it in their present. Well now, I will get off my Sunday Soapbox and shut up. I HAD to vent today. gd
I'm not the least offended, and I think you bring up many important (and valid) points. I'm sure many WAs are fleeing from their own demons, rather than their marriage and their spouses. I'd even agree that, to a point, differences can enhance a marriage.
On the other hand, some differences make it hard to maintain an involved marriage. The morning person/night person issue is, I do believe, a problematic one. How can you actively work on your marriage if you only see each other for half an hour each day? He'd ask her to stay up longer, so they could talk/watch tv together, but she said she needed her sleep. That left the weekends. But even there, finding things that both enjoyed was difficult. He told her he needed more physical affection (not just sex, but hugs, holding hands, etc) but she said she wasn't a touchy-feely person, and would never be.
If one person really enjoys dinner parties/social outings, and the other despises them? If one person loves spending hours on the computer, and the other won't touch them with a ten-foot-pole? (These are just random examples for many similar issues) If there is really nothing both like to do together, and everybody lives their own seperate lives, connected only through the mutual love for the children?
He never claimed any of this was her "fault", that she was a kind person, a loyal friend, and an excellent mother. That she had a right to be her own person, have her own preferences and pursue her own interests. He'd just come to the point where being physically present in the marriage without any emotional connection for the next twenty years seemed a dreary prospect, whereas she thought simply "having" a husband, a beautiful home, and three wonderful children was as perfect as it could be.
Let me reiterate that the situation as described above I got not only from him, but also from his children. I had a few very intense discussions with his D14, because I wanted her to be able to express her feelings, what pain, insecurities and confusion she might have, openly. She's a wonderful girl, and a tribute to her mother's parenting skills. During those discussion, the girl herself made many comments about her parent's marriage, even though I really just wanted to talk about "her". She pretty much painted the exact same picture of their household as her father - two loving parents living in different worlds. One particular comment was "I don't know what they were thinking when they got married - they are polar opposites in every way".
He didn't chose me because of sex, he chose me because we could talk. For hours, about life, politics, science, whatnot. To this day, she doesn't see that, thinks she had a great marriage, and that he left for a pretty face.
I hope I didn't offend you either, Wonder, and I can only imagine how painful your situation must be for you. One of the reasons I came to this site is that I wanted to see the LBSs perspective, and I've learned much from all of you. Each sitch is different, but I hope the insight into the WAs motivations and reasonings will prove to be helpful to you, too.
Please feel free to continue this conversation, and don't be afraid to ask hard questions. I think they could benefit me more than anyone.
Hi Pen. I won't judge you even thought my H has a OW.But know that it is very hard for most of us if not all of use to do that.We have a very hard time not viewing the ow as a vital part of the destrution on a home and family.Not the full source of the blow but part of the bomb that rainned down on us.
I have a question.What if anything could his wife have done or said that would have stopped you in your tracks and made you stop seeing him?
I have not contacted her.In the beginning of this mess I tried but she wouldn't talk to m.I have since stopped and really don't see a need to.
I know that these things need to run there course and I'm waiting it out while getting that life I'm suppose to.
But I still tinker with the idea of making her see what she is doing.
Later Friend. Briget
The grass is always greener over the septic tank... Erma Bombeck
Treat hate with Love... DR. Martin Luther King
Pen--Thanks for taking residence here and answering them for fellow posters. I hope it isn't too uncomfortable in the hot seat?
I think it's important to distinguish that each and every situation is different. Just because the motives may be similar, all the people and circumstances are different.
My BIL had what sounds to be a similar sitch to Pen's. Wife #2 would not meet him halfway (or any way) to accommodate some of his needs. One of them was to be supported by her (not in the financial sense).
His burning need to go to college and get his degree was important. Yet all she would do was threaten him if he wasted HER money on something useless, especially since he had a good job. She was a nurse, had her degree, so what gives?
He stated his case for change before he left the 1st time. He suggested C and she adamantly refused. When he left, she played victim and was not hesitant in telling all their family members and friends what a horrid person he was. But their private convos were different. She begged him to come home and work on their M.
He did so, only to find out that she only had hell in store for him. For 4 months, he read books on how to work through things... and he got nowhere. She gave NOTHING but asked for everything in return.
It was easy for others to point to my sister, the OW, as being the problem. But she was not. She was someone like Pen--one who offered friendship and compassion. They WERE just friends for a really long time.
This isn't to say that those of you who are LBS are like BIL's XW. Far from it. I suspect that most all of you are willing to make the changes and meet the WAS somewhere--anywhere--and be reasonable.
There are those who are unwilling to do that.
I really and truly see a whole lot of similarities amongst our WASs here--regardless of the OW or not (because mine has not got one). They appear to be running from themselves. Not from us, even if they say so, and not TO OW.
I've never been a black and white person. I've always seen a zillion shades of gray. I really won't become someone who sees most of life's issues in black and white either. I'm a much more compassionate person now that I know it's good for me. And I dislike labels just as much.
Wonder, I think this is an amazing statment:
Quote: People who are not dealing with their own hurt tend to hurt others.
I think this is entirely accurate. All I have to do is walk into my Ds elementary school and see this at work. UGH.
Thanks for all the thought provoking discussions.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
thank you, too for a very thought-provoking post. Some of the points you made I already responded to in my post to Wonder, but I didn't want to ignore yours. I perfectly agree that many WAs rewrite history, forget all the good and remember only the bad, simply because it suits the need of the (their) moment. I'm not sure in how far this applies to my own sitch - my h married his ex because she was pregnant, and he thought it was his responsibility to care for them - and you don't need to have much in common with someone to sleep with them. Over a decade and three children later, he hadn't changed his expectations of what he wanted out of a marriage, she hadn't changed her style of living, and he finally decided he shouldn't even expect her to - after all, she was her own person, who had a right to go to bed at eight, and not be touchy-feely, and enjoy parties more than hanging out at home and talking.
We were friends when we met, and discovered we could talk for hours. It was just an e-mail/chatroom friendship for the longest time, since we lived on opposite parts of the globe. After it turned into a PA, he realized he had to make some very hard choices, especially because he adores his children, and the though of hurting them was gut-wrentching. He wasn't too worried about his wife, because (as I've said before) he was convinced she wouldn't care one way or another. I told him to think about it, talk to his wife, and that I'd be fine with whatever he decided - although I don't have kids I could vividly imagine the pain of not being able to see them on a day-to-day basis. The last thing I wanted to do was pressure him. In the end, he discovered that his wife did care about remaining married, but he thought it was mainly for financial/status reason - after all, they'd spent virtually no time together for years, so he believed her life would hardly change through the divorce. She'd still have a house, her children, and financial security (even if not quite as much money as before). This was his side of it - how she felt, I cannot know.
He asked her if he should stay for the children, and she said she only wanted him to stay if it was because of her - not a very smart thing to say to a man who's just gotten through telling you he's in love with another woman, and wants to leave. Here she missed her only chance to hold on to him, and DB bust, if that was what she wanted. Had she said she wanted him to stay no matter what, and fight for her marriage, I can honestly say I would have quietly disappeared out of the picture.
Once again, I hope I didn't offend, and I know how difficult it must be to be as generous as you've all been to a former "OW" while you are still in so much pain yourself. Thank you for that, and for the insight you've provided.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. You certainly didn't offend me.
I was one of those people who was attracted to my husband precisely because he was in outward ways and interests my polar opposite... but in many less visible ways, we are very much alike and share similar traits and backgrounds and ways of looking at the world-- at least before he started rewriting our marriage. In fact, he says the same about me.
When he left, he said he could not talk to me, that we never talked about anything, that he and OW could talk about things. A while later, when I asked about this more--when he wanted to come home-- he said "we could always talk about anything, Wonder-- that's who we have always been!" When he was severely depressed, he told me there was no one else he could confide in... only me.
You see, the story changes.
He once said to me that OW was not his type, but as they talked more, she "morphed into his type". I think this is telling:
If you tell people what you want, you are more likely to get it. He told her things he wanted from me that he had never once uttered in my presence. She interpreted this as "I know your W is just never going to meet your needs... maybe I could be that for you." But the truth is, when he did tell me what he had said to OW, none of these things were things I was unwilling to give-- they were things he never said he wanted. Since then, he has received all of them.
The value given by or trouble created by "differences" is--like most things in life-- entirely a matter of how one chooses to view them.
But you are right, of course, that one cannot make an M work by living separate lives and refusing to appreciate your partner's uniqueness as a precious part of who they are. When you look for negative, well, guess what you see.
Every single difference cited by my H as a reason to leave has also later been "taken back" by him. This is the kind of twisting of reality that goes on.
Marriage isn't falling in love. It requires compromise and negotiation-- it requires a mindset that each person's needs are equally important. Emotional connection is not an accident... it is the result of actions.
I guess from the LBS perspective, I would say of the WA (again, being general here but using your example)-- how often did he decide to go to bed early to fall asleep near his wife? Or decide to spend a Saturday afternoon doing something his wife loved to do because it pleased her to have him try it with her? Or ask her how she most likes to show her affection and have it shown back to her? Or suggest they talk to a counselor or read a book together about ways to strengthen their emotional connection if he felt it lacking?
Living separate lives is making a choice to avoid the issues, just as walking away is.
What I find interesting as the LBS is when WASs like my H say they respect and care about their spouse, even compliment us... this as they treat us without compassion, are dishonest and do things that they know are destructive to their marriage and hurtful to us. Let's face it, this is not how people respect and care for one another. Again, they're seeing only themselves-- and I suspect usually from pain not malice. I asked my H if he would consider me caring and respectful if the situation were reversed. The answer was no.
My stepdad left his first wife for all the same reasons we have been discussing. He later met and married my mom. His daughters, though angry about the situation, all saw my mom as more well suited to him. What I saw was my mom change all her habits and interests to match his, make excuses for his not treating his depression and enable heavy drinking. When he passed away, she became herself again. It was generally all about him.
He's told me that he later realized was that he could have had a good first marriage if he was willing to talk to his wife about his wife instead of to another woman, and that he had found out that he would never be happy all the time. He never said that to his daughters.
I suspect my H will learn this too... in some ways he is learning it now. I have learned a lot too.
first let me tell you that I'm extremly sorry that you're going through such a difficult situation. And I don't intend to shrink my part in the pain my h's LBS had to go through - my mere presence was part of the package, and it certainly influenced his choice. I understand the anger, the pain, and the need to lash out. I'm sure my h's ex-wife felt all of these emotions. I'm glad, very glad in fact, that she was able to overcome them and forgive me for my part in it, mainly because it was very important for the children, who of course were aware of the tension between us. They're breathing much easier now, knowing they are free to love both their mother and their dad, and that none of this is about "them".
You ask if there was anything my h's ex-wife could have done to make me stop seeing him - like I said to Livnlean, if she had said she wanted him to stay and work on their marriage, I would understood, and left.
once again, I perfectly understand where you are coming from - and I'm sure what you've said applies to thousands of WAs who are simply in a state of confusion about their own pain, which they try to project outwards towards their spouse. You sound like a person who would have been willing to work, and work hard, to make the necessary changes to improve your marriage, if he'd only been willing to meet you a small part of the way.
However, this may not be true of everyone. The members of this board aren't a representative average of the population - just the fact that you looked for ways to stop your divorce, found this message board and started posting/working on yourself is proof of an open mind, flexibility and a desire for change. Others might never get to that point, and simply ignore the warning signs, take no responsiblity for their own actions, and when the bomb explodes, assume it is "all the WAs fault" who "left a perfect marriage" just to chase the excitement of a new girl.
Each sitch is different, because people are different. But your post was very thought-provoking, as usual, and I thank you for giving me more to consider.
gd 
Betsey