Friends: Season 5--New perspectives

[holdingon]

Betsey,
Your post last night was frighteningly familiar. As you know, my H has been having an A for over 18 months now (so much for the 6 month average). Last week, I needed to talk to him about some issues with my son and was appalled/frustrated/unbelieving that he seems to be in the same place emotionally that he was in November (our last R talk).

Granted, I don't really know where he is... I don't know how much if any time he has put into thinking about what he has done. As a conflict avoider, in all likelihood, he's done none...

However, he did say that he knows he is wrong, he feels guilty about what he is doing/has done, so I guess that is a step in the right direction.

But in his mind, he still thinks a D is the answer. I'd give him one just so he would see that it is not, but I refuse to do any of the work associated with a D... my heart won't let me go there, and I will not help him along on a path of his choosing.

A girlfriend described it as we were walking down a common path, and my H saw something that interested him... I continued along the path, growing, changing all the way... my H is still stuck, trying to convince himself that he really does like what he has found or trying to figure out how to get out of his M... but not doing either one too effectively.

However, I've also been increasingly feeling that I don't want this broken shell of a man who doesn't want to get rid of his baggage so he can live a happy life. I really don't know if he has what it takes to do this work.

I know all too well what you mean, here, too. And do WE want to do the work to get them to the point we are at, much less to having a great R?

I KNOW you don't want to hear "he needs more time." I know you think there is SOMETHING that will snap him out of what he is doing. For your H, this may be true... however, you did quote something to me the other day "when the STUDENT is ready, the teaching begins."

Your H is listening. Your H is facing some demons, granted, he is still blaming you for many of them. Your H is still all about HIM. Frustrating, yes... unbearably so. But, if you push him now, Betsey, I believe you WILL end up D. Will he then have a revelation? Who knows. Your H and my H seem to be SLOWLY (slow as sea coral) making incremental progress. Your H is talking to you, sharing, etc. The ONLY solution I have for you (and God knows, I ain't the answer lady) is to let him keep working on it... IF that is what you want. IF you are done, then file. Not because you need a catalyst, but because it IS the right time.

[gd1]

It's a crap shoot, ain't it?
Always, a catch 22.
Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

You are brave and inspiring and I THINK if the rest of us had you to speak for us with oUR WAS...that we would have a lot of saved marriages. So why aint it working with yours?

Could be....well, a lot of things.
I worry about the 'you know I'm a conflict avoider and that is just the way it is ' crap. See, the defense mech here is that deep down I think he believes that being conflict avoidant IS A GOOD THING.It looks like you have told him and even gotten him to admit that it isn't a good thing...but he is still clinging to the idea that he is a good guy a nice guy because he is conflict avoidant. It's worked for him all his life. I don't think he is willing to give it up. and dammit, why can't you just be the old Bets in that ONE WAY and then change all the other stuff that you've been changing that he didn't like....

problem is, I have no clue what you can do about this, and know that my X was exactly the same way. Logic doesn't seem to work. Emotion doesn't seem to work. So we are back to the 2 x 4. It would help if some guru friend just up and said: listen W, the fact that you are conflict avoidant is what caused all the probs in the first place. YOU. And you 've managed to teach your kids that 'nice people are conflict avoidant' and that is setting them up to FAIL as adults. GET OVER YOURSELF. You are just one big friggin COP OUT of a human being.

Well, thank you for the vent
Literally every talk show, book , therapy class says: conflict avoidance the number one killer of marriages....and yet these P/A dickheads cling to it like it was written on stone.

Its like he HAS come a long way, but all that work doesn't matter if his premise is wrong...and I think his premise is wrong.

It could be that losing his family is the only thing that will make him realize that he needs to CHANGE some really bad false assumptions, just like you did. And it does sound like he might recognize that, but just doesn't know how. So how does he get help? It seems he is telling you that Marshall didn't work for him. So what kind of therapy/therapist would?

I remember way back, l995...I DID take a stand. H, unless you are ready to work on our issues , I want a divorce...lets do it. It so shook him that he decided to work....then, he didn't have a HO, and I do think that makes a difference...so maybe that is a gambit that you will have to take.

Oh Bets, this is just way too hard. Life isn't supposed to be this much work.

I don't know how you've held up as long as you have. It isn't fair, it isn't just.... maybe we need a Tampa party 'fix' where your H hears in the background "hey, Bets, come back to bed" (Worked for Wonder Woman)

Love ya! gd

[Underdog]

Believe me, I've been mulling over pretty much everything everyone has said. You have all given me some stuff to work with.

One thing I forgot to mention in my post last night and yesterday afternoon. Yesterday afternoon, Mr. W. called me to "ask me" whether or not I wanted to get D7 back at the crack of dawn on Saturday morning or did I just want to keep her Friday night? I found myself fuming, but since I don't ever want D7 to think she's not my #1 priority, I told him Friday night would work just fine.

And I stewed. I also agreed to bypass the 24 hour rule to address what I felt was insensitive of him. But I compromised on bringing it up later that evening.

He hedged his bets by calling me from his car on his way to get D7. He apologized for springing the last minute changes on me. I told him I appreciated his consideration.

At the end of convo #1 (later in the evening), we were discussing the art of getting angry. I mentioned to him that I felt better after his second call because I WAS angry with him. He seemed extremely surprised and commented, "Really? I would have never guessed. Why were you angry?"

I responded, "Well, because I wasn't asked."

He replied, "Yes I did. That's what I was asking when I called. Wasn't it?"

I said, "No, our usual schedule is for you to bring back the girls in the afternoon sometime. I had made plans. You gave me a choice between 2 that worked for you without asking me specifically if it was okay with me. Because how I see it is that you asked me to forgo my Saturday plans only or both Friday and Saturday."

He said, "Hmmm. I see what you're saying. I really was asking if having a 7:45 tee time was okay with you. But I realize I didn't speak well enough to that."

POINT TAKEN.

Pam, this is what I was going to tell you in the chat.

I also followed that part of the convo up with the following:

Me: "No matter what happens, you are still the dad and I am still the mom, and nothing that happens will change this. We are going to be communicating actively for the rest of our lives. So that is going to require that we are both very specific on our needs and wants, and wording them appropriately. I have as much work to do in this area as you do. Either way, we're going to have conflicts. Lots of them. And it's going to take 2 heads to come up with solutions."

MW: "I agree."

Linda, I KNOW this is hard. I've never thought otherwise.

Right now, I'm going to combat some of my anger with action. Earlier this afternoon, I left Mr. W. a voicemail asking him to call me back. He called me from his cell, from his car. Good. Nearly 99% of the time, I get a guy that is friendly and upbeat.

Note to me: I know I've mentioned this before, but maybe there is real estate that looks like a car that moves? I could move him in so I could get a more positive side of this man?

Anyway, we discussed the tornado warnings and sirens and he asked me, "You wanted to talk about tornadoes with me?"

Me: "Goodness, no. That would be a pretty lame reason to call, dontcha think? Unless one hit the house or either one of our office buildings?"

MW: Chuckling. "Yeah. So what's up?"

Me: "Would you like to go see Harry Potter with me and D7 on Friday night?"

MW: No hesitation whatsoever. "Hey, that works! I don't golf until Saturday. What are we going to do about dinner?"

Me: "Well, we still have a couple days to hash it out. We can figure it out as we go."

MW: "You sure D7 will sit through it?"

Me: "I'm not sure of anything. But since she was watching Chamber of Secrets when I got home yesterday, and I've had quite a few successful theater ventures with her, I'm leaning toward a yes."

MW: "Oh, D10 is going to be jealous! That is, unless your folks take her first."

Me: "Well, you'll just have to ask her."

His cell started to lose signal and we hung up. My next topic will be brought up on Friday, when I ask him to plan a camping trip in the motor home after D10 gets back. That's one thing that we find fun doing as a family.

I don't have the answers, guys and gals. Mr. W's brother and SIL are really puzzled by this stuff. My BIL is also a conflict avoider, but he's said through SIL, there is more here than just that. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I smell fear.

Linda, I might not have posted his exact words about Marshall properly. He said it didn't work. Not that Marshall didn't work. He and I both know what didn't work was his withholding information to help him. He's terrified of what lurks under his surface. And I'm wondering if he's brave enough to go there and deal with those demons.

I know I'm the one who says resentment is based on neglecting self care. Well, he's been appeasing himself by occupying himself with activities he enjoys: golfing, bowling, fishing, reading, etc. But he's not taking care of his emotional and spiritual needs. And I really and truly believe that his center is so off balance that he doesn't see that they need to occupy the stage with physical needs.

He feels resentful because I am balanced and he is not. It's easier to assess blame in my direction for my many past transgressions than it is to own up to his own (yes, Pam, you are accurate on that). If I have a little more patience, I believe I can show him that it is possible.

My jury is still out on whether or not I want this man back. I'm not sure if he's ever going to get on the path he needs to be on.

I don't know. I really don't. But HoldingOn told me in a chat to pray for him to have courage to face this stuff. That is what I know I can do with conviction and sincerity.

Thanks for all the input. I am very grateful.

Betsey

p.s. Triple J, you pick a movie weekend and we'll make it happen. Make sure the weather is supposed to stink or be hot as blazes....

[Underdog]

p.s. Karen? I need to devote some time to your incredibly insightful post. It was compelling and deserves a reply. But D7 is now raiding the fridge.... will have to wait until tomorrow.

Merrick, been reading your stuff too. Thanks for the e/m. I'll do yours justice with a fresh head as well!

[merrick]

Hey Bets-

The only thing I wanted to add to your sitch is that you scare the $hit out of me when you talk about these hormone changes. I have this vision of winning W back--only to have menopause kick in and then I become the WAS. I sometimes actually think having a WAW may be better! Any insight?

On the serious side--I truly understand your frustration on MW's lolligagging through la-la land. I was curious. Was MW aware of your EA and to what extent? How did he react? Anger? Indifference? Did he draw nearer? I wonder if this offers any clues?

Anyway--52 days until Denver (we beat the Rockies tonight).

[KutieKat]

bets - wow - i have been away for two days and come back to all of this

what a blessing this board is eh? you have many things to ponder - but in the end, only you can make the decision

i read with total interest the whole "growing faster" theme and i have to soak that all in before i can respond, but surely this has to be what everyone talks about when they finally say they "let go"

i have to go back to something love2win said

Well, IMHO, either way we end up leaving them feel "guilt-ridden". If you file, it may make him wise up but I don't think so. I think it will take a while for him to realize what he's doing and if you go this route, it would be "after" the D. Once again, YOU...would be making the call, making the decision, taking the blame.

hmmm - that is pretty powerful stuff right there - when you mentioned that you were entertaining the possibility of starting the 'd' process that immediately sounded like a 'control' thing - mind you this is only my opinion - but we share past 'control' issues so my thought was that you are trying to control the outcome

i guess what i am saying is this - you have every RIGHT to control YOUR outcome, but you are banging your head against the wall if you think that by initiating a 'd' that you can control the outcome of k - to tell us that you would like to initiate this to get him to move - well do you see where i am going with this???

just something to think about - i don't want you in limbo anymore darlin - i know what that feels like, and quite frankly it sucks

but next time come out and tell us - i think i am gonna initiate a 'd' because I JUST CANNOT STAND TO BE IN LIMBO anymore and i want to move on with my life

maybe i just see a difference, i don't know...

i can't wait to get back home so that we can 'chat'

[Underdog]

Good morning all!

KK--Darlin' you don't have to worry about me DOING anything right now! As I prefaced earlier, these were just thoughts rambling through my head. Musings that I feel I cannot ignore.

You know me well enough that if I end up filing, it's going to be because I'm darned sick of this stuff and I want to really put all of this behind me. Who knows?

Merrick--I wish I could tell you that the hormones have nothing to do with anything. Ever since I've had to deal with them, I haven't had mood fluctuations or surges in sadness. Now that "my train has left the station", I am paying close attention to how I feel before the event, during and after. It is VERY different than before.

Look at it this way: all of us, including your W, will take this path. So you'll get stuck with the experience any way you cut the mustard! There are lots of books available on the subject, and maybe this is a good point to steer all men in our age bracket to read one or two? I can promise you that the more compassionate you are and the more understanding you have about the process, the better off everyone will be.

Karen...

I know we have had so many uncanny parallels. And I believe I've posted my conclusions, which match yours: I don't want him to be the "victim" any more than he's already become (in his mind).

After a few chats and input here, I spent the evening and night really mulling through things. Mike, I appreciate your e-mail. And if I went the D route, it would be for the reasons you mentioned. It's well thought out and I would be lying if I said I haven't considered your perspective.

What works best for ME and the girls--and him--is the friends approach. He seems to be thinking more warmly and happily when we are interacting as friends. Hence, my invitation to see the movie. And I think he really misses me as his friend too.... he accepted it before I could say Bob Barker!

I know some of you who have been posting with me for the duration know that Mr. Wonderful and I started our R as friends. After doing things for a few months as friends, we went out as a couple in a big group of friends... where he finally admitted to finding me very atrractive and date interest worthy. We had done nothing up to that point other than go out to lunch, bowling or sit outside our building on a park bench and eat lunch together. (We worked together.)

If I can barrage that fortress using the "friends" method--one that I've journaled and seems to work the best--I think there might stand a snowball's chance in hell that he won't want to choose to see me as the sole problem.

Myrrh and HOn were right that he's finally sharing some of his more negative feelings with me. I don't look at it as a baby step or anything. But I have to comment that it is very different than the guy who's shown himself to me over the past year+.

I guess I didn't expect to feel angry about his perceptions. Well, that is just more of an indicator to me that I've asked him to open up. He's doing it. But I asked him to be honest, and I think I need to put some of the content aside to see the bigger picture.

So here goes my list of positives:

1. We DO talk. Often. As friends. He phones me 95% of the time just to chat.
2. He told me the other night that he cares deeply for me and about me, and that the decision he will ultimately make will be for each one of us first and the girls 2nd.
3. He is finally sharing a part of him that has been closed off and sealed for a year and a half. I don't have to like what he's sharing, but it's something different.
4. I began this journey feeling VERY negative, worthless, unattractive, unhealthy and hopeless. I need to accept that he's got to start here too, in order to change for the better.
5. Whether or not he will agree to this statement, we DO have a lot in common. We love music, being outside, camping and reading.
6. He couldn't be married to a nicer and more understanding person than me.

(Unfortunately, I'm human too. And I have my own set of character flaws and defects.)

Merrick, you asked a question about my EA. It lasted about 10 months total. Mr. Wonderful found out about it when I told him about it. I was a mess and he held me but acted like I told him I had run over the neighbor's dog.

He had that glazed over expression in his eyes that became obvious to me after he moved out... one that told me how empty and dead he felt inside. I wish I knew then what I know now... but I had just begun counseling myself. I was in no position to really evaluate anyone other than myself. And I was desperately unhappy and lonely at the time.

After he left and in MC he told me how he figured out that he didn't love me anymore: he didn't feel rage when I told him. I have my own theory on this, though.

He was so dead inside, I don't think he felt anything about anyone, including himself. He compared his then present feelings to how he felt when we were dating and my ex came a-calling. Well, things were different, so that explanation didn't sit well with me--then or now.

I see it as a smokescreen for the much larger issue: he's desperately unhappy being him.

Pam and I had a chat yesterday afternoon, and she was able to point out some similarities between Mr. W. and her H. It was what spurred me into really contemplating what has worked in the past. Being connected to me as a human is what has the best chance of working. At least right now.

I can manage to do that too. I'm going to ask him to plan a weekend camping trip after D10 gets back. It's an activity that is fun, relaxing and a way to connect with us again. If anything can point to any magic in this equation, it's that. We'll see.

In the meantime, I'm going to be a very busy ranger. I've accepted an unpaid position to sit on a committee to rewrite Medicaid determination criteria and eligibility. It's going to require a great deal of my free time and energy, and it will last for about 18 months.

I was hand picked, along with one other attorney gentleman who also has a special needs son, for this job by our state Medicaid director (the one who invited me to come testify). I was very hesitant to agree to do this, because of the time constraints. However, it was something I felt I could change for the better, and I will make lots of new contacts and gain more insight and perspective into a world that was previously unknown to me.

I have to end this on a more fun note, so I'll sign off by saying that the day Mr. Wonderful asked me to go out as friends, I was wearing an ultrasuede mini-skirt. He's a leg man, and I've got plenty. Tonight, D7 and I are going shopping for a more 40-ish appropriate version of the same! Which, of course, I will wear tomorrow night for the movies.

Betsey

[holdingon]

you have every RIGHT to control YOUR outcome, but you are banging your head against the wall if you think that by initiating a 'd' that you can control the outcome of k - to tell us that you would like to initiate this to get him to move

Yep.

I have been thinking about this ... cause you know, i do think too much... and I was thinking this morning that you are slipping back into letting the sitch control you, or trying to control your H... neither of which is a good place to be. WE need to just get on with life. WE need to just let our Hs be. I have no desire to initiate a D so there is really no reason for me to lament what if I do... my goal here must be to ride this out, and I need to do that from a distance, while enjoying my life the best that I can, in spite of the circumstances. It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life.

[gd1]

Hi gang,
A word about not doing anything about a divorce...letting the WAS do it all, not interfering:

That is the path I chose. When my now X told me that he didn't want to try anymore, I took the "Stop your Divorce" approach of: well ok, I can see that you have made a decision and I will abide by it. I said that while I felt I was willing to do anything to save our marriage that I just couldn't do the work of divorce, so that I was going to count on him to do the work needed for us both. And then I didn't do anything OVERT, tho I admit to trying some things covertly throught the therapist.

Well, all it did was piss him off. I was the fixer and HOW DARE I not do this one last thing. He really expected me to do the work of it. For a long time there was a stalemate. He didn't file, wouldn't give me paperwork so that I could see where our finances were headed, etc. Meanwhile the therapist was trying to get X into therapy. But then all hell broke lose with some unfortunate (or planned) disasters that ended up with him accusing me of all sorts of crazy stuff (trying to poison him comes to mind.) And all this was just excuses for not facing his own issues, but it really damaged our relationship forever. He finally filed (I think the OW forced the issue), the lawyer did the rest to make hostility as high as possible. He used the 'excuses', the accusations to justify his trying to get everything he could money wise and still be a nice guy.

SO: just in my case, the waiting for Godot didn't work out well and just increased the anger and resentment. Perhaps there are 1000s of situations where the waiting worked out beautifully, but I write this just as a warning: the PA walkaway is a very DIFFERENT type of person: the blame, the smoldering anger/resentment, the years of conflict avoidance...I think we are dealing with a live wire situation and whatever we do or don't do is seen as controlling. Sorry to sound so pessimistic, and again, this is but ONE example.

Can't offer advice, only prayers that your cases will be different.

Hugs to all, gd

[SadBurl]

6. He couldn't be married to a nicer and more understanding person than me.

I couldn't agree more

I was wearing an ultrasuede mini-skirt. He's a leg man, and I've got plenty. Tonight, D7 and I are going shopping for a more 40-ish appropriate version of the same! Which, of course, I will wear tomorrow night for the movies.

Forget the 40-ish appropriate version (brings up imagines of floral ankle length floaty skirts ) If you've got the legs get them out. As a maiden aunt of mine always said if you've got it flaunt it ! It is summer after all.

Have a great night tonight.
God bless