my 2 cents, for what they are worth. First of all, I can relate to the anger about the "timing" complaint - I felt it too, without even being involved. Interesting, I thought, he keeps her in limbo for almost 2 years, with every opportunity to make his thoughts and wishes known, but flips over a letter given before a 2-day vacation? Every nerve cell in my brain screamed "EXCUSES"! Then I thought back, and remembered that my husband has often done the same thing .... not tackled a difficult issue with someone at a certain time because he "didn't want to ruin their vacation". Might be a male thing, might be a PA thing - I'd take note of it, and move on.
Regarding the rest of your conversation, it was exquisite in every sense of the word .... beautifully orchestrated, mature, kind, validating - every positive adjective one could think of would apply. It was so perfect, in fact, that it actually left me with a sense of uneasiness. It semed to me that at this point, your insight into your own mind and that of others far surpasses his. Not surprising, since you've spent the last two years (?) working on yourself, while he has spent them avoiding the issues. Add to that your obvious verbal/argumentative skills, your intelligence, your ability to think logically and actually apply what you have reasoned out. Could it be that on some level he resents those skills, because he fears he will be rolled over by them - simply because he has nothing to counter them with? That he clings to the only control he has, namely withholding from you the answer you want?
Betsey, you are such a complete person in every sense of the word, or as complete a person as ever jumped off the pages of the internet. I am in continuing awe at how you manage to juggle so many different aspects of your full life (from special needs daughter to this BB) with such great humour and grace. He knows you've stood steady in the tempest, and I'm sure he's grateful - but also filled with guilt. And guilt is a kissing cousin of resentment. I don't mean you should do anything different, except maybe show him your vulnerabilities a bit more. You've saved the family for so long now - do you think there's a way you could let him do some saving?
I don't know if I've managed to at all convey what I mean, but there it is.
Wow...you are awesome. Your patience is amazing and makes me more determined to keep my patience when dealing with my MLC H.
Quote: It seems to me you always time things right before I am about to attempt a vacation or a relaxing trip. A 2 1/2 day furlough, which I had hoped would be an escape, was instead tormented by the decisions I must ultimately make.
Oh my..your H sounds a little like my H here, the blaming thing.
Pen, Thanks for the post. I think I have mentioned that I have been accused of thinking too "black and white." So, your perspective was important for me to see.
See, I see a lack of control as a lack of control. I never really stop to think that it could be masking something else. Good point on the withholding the answer for control reasons. I guess that since he has given up control in so many other areas it was hard for me to even consider that he would exercise some at any point.
I have an acauaintence that was actually turned away from counseling because her H refused to go, and the T told her that she was in the process of surpassing him and then there would be no turning back. Now, personally, I thought this was a crummy approach (stopping the therapy), but there is a certain truth to one person growing and the other person not. I guess though, that it just makes it easier to eventully move on.
Betsey- I am going to gently put in my perspective. It is really good that he is able to take these kinds of intense and possibly uncomfortable discussions and actually respond. I know you have said that MW has usually been able to talk - it is a good thing.
He is sharing some feelings with you that are really important to him. As we all know, Betsey, you have been working on yourself for two years. Apparently he has been running somewhat from his feelings - maybe because he felt since he left that he didn't have the right to have those feelings. Now he is relying on the safety of talking with you to communicate some of those feelings. This is a great thing, because it means no matter what happens between you two from now on, you will be able to communicate.
This was not a resolution for you, and because I am your friend and I love you, I hate that. My question is, when is part 2 of the letter coming?
Alos, I am SO PROUD of you for not crazymaking. You are the woman!!!! Lots of love, Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
I must say first that I am blessed to have all of you reading and responding. I appreciate ALL (and I mean ALL) of the feedback I'm receiving. Over night, I was able to digest more of this and some of what you guys addressed was processed.
H2H, your comment about me doing the labeling and initiating this stuff was something I noticed too. I don't like it. At all. But since I'm the one who needs resolution, I really don't mind being stuck in the role too much because I do want some closure on this stuff.
Pam, you said:
Quote: It's not the timing, it is the fact that they have to deal with things that they don't want to deal with.
Bingo. I've got some thought on this, which I'll share below.
Pen, you are undoubtedly one of the most insightful women. I've been doing more of the vulnerability thing, and he's not hurting me, so I've been more comfortable exposing myself. However, you really hit a nerve on the comment about letting him save the family. I'm gonna pose some more questions here so I can process this more.
Myrrh, as always, you've given me something new to think about. A different spin on this sitch, and I think I really needed to hear what you had to say to help me.
Uh, Part 2 is coming SOON. Since we know that's typical Mr. W. and very vague, he shared with me that he's working on this part right now.
Okay, here are my thoughts. Just let me preface this with something. They are not how I feel ALL the time. But I'm finding them a little more present now as time marches on.
I have been thinking for the past 5-6 months that it's going to take me to file for him to really kick into gear. He might not do it at all either. Which is why I haven't taken that route before--because I wasn't sure if I wanted to take that risk.
However, I've also been increasingly feeling that I don't want this broken shell of a man who doesn't want to get rid of his baggage so he can live a happy life. I really don't know if he has what it takes to do this work.
So although you know I will ultimately do what is best for me and the girls, I want some opinions. Give me some alternative ideas on how to move past my current line of thinking. I still realize I might have to file to put myself in a better place. But I want good, concrete things to try doing before I do that. Please, don't tell me to be patient and give him more time. I realize that I have it, but the fact is ever clear now that Mr. Wonderful is NOT inspired by the clock and calendar alone to think about this stuff. There must be a catalyst, and that has typically been me in some way, shape or form.
I'm willing to entertain just about everything. I don't want to hear the ones that have to do with sex either! Having sex with a weirdo is not an option for me.
Bets
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I've noted this to you before, but I might try to hint that you are exploring an annulment. His knowing how important religion is to you will convey the seriousness of your potential options without raising the more contentious issues involved in an actual divorce. Again, the key here is not to say that you WANT an annulment, but to indicate your are exploring the option. I would causiton, however, that this tactic is more useful if you think an annulment could actually be obtained--which is a big open question.
Quote: I'm willing to entertain just about everything. I don't want to hear the ones that have to do with sex either! Having sex with a weirdo is not an option for me.
Darn, and I was just going to suggest appearing at his appartment in a skimpy silk nightshirt under a fur coat. I guess that one is out.
My suggestions? Apart from the "showing vulnerablities" thing I just wondered if you two still know what it is you are fighting for? I mean, when was the last time you went out on a "couple" date, seen a movie, just spent some time in each other's company for fun? If it's been a while, my suggestion is try that. Let him know it's R-talk free zone, and simply enjoyment time. Dump the kids on an adoring babysitter and go out on the town. (Unless of course he wants to cook dinner for the two of you in his appartment, which is fine. ::very evil grin::)
I'm thinking along the lines of showing the donkey a carrot, as well as taking a pulse of where the two of you are in terms of couple chemistry. It might ease his tension and speed his ability to jump back in the water. It's so easy to lose sight of the goal in the middle of a struggle.
One thing I had to do was step back and be "friends" with my H. I was really resistant to this, as how do you step back from confidante, lover, etc., and work on being just "friends?" Anyway, presented in the form of: Mr. W, no matter what happens with us, I would like to have a good relationship for the sake of the kids. We've really lost touch lately, and I miss having you as my friend. How about a night on the town (substitute night of bowling, dinner and drink, movie, etc.) to make that friendship a priority?
It really makes sense. ...and, it won't hurt to bend over slowly every chance you get to show off that hot new bod of yours!
Betsey, besides the obvious, times like this will give you more of an indication as to whether or not this is really the man for the new you.
Pen...uh oh! A new humorous side? What else are ya hidin' over there?
Betsey.....you continue to amaze me with the confidence and endurance you have to keep this up and maintain your Bob Barkering w/H. I feel as though we are in so much the same mode that it is scary. In my case however, I have not been able to voice the convos that you have shared w/your H but the thoughts are definitely there for me and my H is a shadow of yours. We've already been down this road so I won't go into too much of it here.
Wanted to share my thoughts w/you...I have been reading your saga for quite a while now and once again feel we are wearing the same shoes but I am the downside and you are the upside. You continue to probe, question and make your H think while mine is a wall that hasn't been broken. While I feel that any talks we have had have opened a new R w/us to honesty (as you are probing now), it still doesn't appear to be enough for them (WAS). Which is why I am where I am in my sit-trying to mediate a settlement.
Please bear w/me as I try and make my point here: While my H and I have been discussing these things not too long, it is apparent that he has not truly thought all of these things out or thinks I'm stupid enough to believe him in some cases. I have found this stage very overwhelming and emotional. I thought I had gotten through the pain and saw signs of hope along the way that would have avoided this instance but nonetheless, I'm here now. So, I have done some research and am still doing research but I have decided that: If he wants it to end, then he will have to be the one to write up the papers, serve me or whatever. I'm not gonna sit by and wait, as I said I am doing research to be ready but once again it's "HIS" agenda, not mine.
What I'm trying to say here is that all along, we've known it was "their" issues to deal with and along the way we've matured and changed. But the WAS is still in the hole, cowering and watching from a distance. They have taken the "bait" in some cases but not admittedly and not always so easily. I recently said that I've been "feeding" him all-the-while and it's making "him" look good but not making "me" feel better. You've been doing that too to some extent.
So, now my H is at the tables w/me trying to work w/me on what we are going to split up. Now, when we have talked, I have had some silly questions but they are questions that I don't know the answers to, so I ask. He sees them as going round and round and wants me to "tell" him what I want so we can "get on w/our lives".
Here's the kicker...I have thought about this over and over and it may fit for you too....why? Why does he just not go do it and let me review the papers? Kind of like Merrick's w/and lawyer finally getting him the papers. You know the answer here---he a)can't, b)doesn't want to, or c)wants you to be the one to pull the plug?
Well, IMHO, either way we end up leaving them feel "guilt-ridden". If you file, it may make him wise up but I don't think so. I think it will take a while for him to realize what he's doing and if you go this route, it would be "after" the D. Once again, YOU...would be making the call, making the decision, taking the blame.
I decided for myself that I'm not gonna be the one to do it. I don't want to be in limbo forever but I also don't want him to get off "free". So, I will continue w/my saga and get ready for a D but until he serves me the papers, I'm not leading the way, not this time........
In response to Pen...I can agree w/that concept. I know that my H and I have totally gone our separate ways and in most cases he won't do things w/me but you know what drives that too---FEAR. So, try if you will but there's still one ingredient missing...it's the magic.
I know that my H hasn't "felt" anything in a long time. He's dead on the inside. Your's seems to be as well. Now, I'm not saying to jump into a big wet kiss but there has to be something to check for that spark. That's where my thoughts are lying. How do I even get close enough to render a sweat out of him?
Well, I hope this hasn't been too confusing and I hope you can see the points that I'm trying to make. Who knows, maybe they'll be something we can both get out of this. I'll be waiting...... Tootles....................
Bets 
