I think I understand what you were asking and you didn't get an answer to the actual question you asked.
Quote: But, as an admitted LDW, let me ask you a question. Would you see the same results in your M now if, instead of you going from LD to HD, your H had decided to go LD?
Assuming that I finally understand your question now, the answer, which is only speculation on my part, is no. I believe that sex is my husband's top emotional need from marriage. It would entail a great sacrifice for him to change from being HD (meaning in this case that sex is a primary emotional and physical need) to LD. As you said yourself,
Quote: Since it is about love and not just sex, sex is critical to those who have the greatest need for it. Without it, there is no satisfactory way to express love. Substitute attempts will always fall short.
And, unfortunately, this isn't a need that you can possibly get fulfilled outside your marriage without negative consequences except perhaps in some very unusual situations.
Also, I believe with Willard Harley, that this is a primary emotional need for many people, especially men, including my husband. It's not a low-level need, it's not simply a want, it's not a luxury, it's not a preference. It's a need, and to voluntarily give up a need that strong would be a difficult sacrifice. Even worse, it would be an unnoticed and perhaps unappreciated sacrifice.
For the LD spouse, things would go on as normal. For the HD spouse, every day would be a struggle to maintain a sacrifice without bitterness and anger. As Pat Love wrote in the Foreward to TSSM:
Quote: Far too many couples live with an unspoken, unworkable contract that goes something like this: " I expect you to be monogamous, but don't expect me to meet your sexual needs." You can't live under this contract without driving a stake into the heart of your marriage.
In our case, where there's no illness or other extenuating circumstances that would prevent sex, I honestly don't think that we could have reached the point where we are now if I hadn't made him and his primary emotional need a priority in my life. It's why I keep talking about love. Once I found out how important this was to him and that it's what says "I love you" more than anything else to him and that I wasn't meeting this need satisfactorily, the only choice came down to whether or not I loved him. If I loved him, I had to make every reasonable effort to meet this need. If I didn't try my best to meet this REASONABLE and NORMAL need, "I love you" would only be words without meaning. And, for what it's worth, it's what I would say to any other woman (I don't know anything about LD men) who came to me and said that she loved her husband, that he was a considerate lover, that sex was his primary emotional need (or at least in the top 3), but that she just didn't FEEL like ML with him and didn't see why this was important.
Hope this answers your original question.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
Quote: It was only when he pulled away his affection/love and even the negative fighting ( in other words, all emotion) that I woke up.
This is just what seems to have happened in my case with my LDH. He was just annoyed when I would get upset about the lack of sex , but when I actually started to feel and act emotionally distant or simply differentiated then he was the one who became upset. The sad thing is (I'm sure this is what you realize also) that it's not that I'm faking the emotional distance in order to get the response I want from him. Even though we've been having great, frequent sex lately, part of me is still "detached". I guess I'm just going to have to see a great deal of consistency and enthusiasm from him before I can totally recommit myself to him emotionally because I'm still quite hurt and wary whenever I think about the past. Do you sense this from your H?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'm going to clarify my situation because so far, most folks in this thread have mentioned that they had the ability to "pull away" or decrease their emotional connection to their spouses. I have not had that luxury...I didn't have anything to pull away because my W went for 10 years being used to me being ED. I'm in the process of rebuilding the fundamentals like love, trust, and mutual enjoyment of each other's company.
Unfortunately, for the 10 years of ED, I didn't behave too differently than I'm able to now...very kind, lots of TV time in the evening. The only difference is that I "consider" her when I make decisions, I go up to bed with her each night even if I don't stay in bed (i'm a night owl), I ask her if she needs help with something shes working on, I make the bed, and do a few extra chores around the house. Oh, and I replace the toilet paper rolls.
While I've been getting occasional sparks of connection with the recent increase in sex, she hasn't indicated that she's feeling any different now than she used to. This might be a vulnerability defense thing but from knowing her dad, I believe that she could be content with or without me. Granted, I don't want her love to come from "need" but I truly feel that if I retracted emotionally from her, she wouldn't notice or really care too much. It's starting to feel like she's simply going through the motions now and getting better at acting. It doesn't feel like were two people rediscovering love but rather a clumsy series of missteps, falls, and recoveries where the stumbling partner jumps back up and says "you didn't see that".
I'm not sure why I'm depressed...I got some sex last night.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: I guess I'm just going to have to see a great deal of consistency and enthusiasm from him before I can totally recommit myself to him emotionally because I'm still quite hurt and wary whenever I think about the past. Do you sense this from your H?
I feel that H and I both use the "hurts of the past" to avoid moving forward. We both had the responsibility to keep the sexuality and intimacy in the relationship going and we both failed miserably. It has been hard to try to reclaim his affection, as if he is the only one to feel "wronged" in the marriage. He did not marry a cold and unresponsive woman; on the contrary I was warm, open and sensual. For the past year the dynamic has been me making all the changes and my feeling "punished." This has only perpetuated our fused stance together, and it wasn't until reading SSM and PM that I am now ready to push ahead for something better. I don't think you should wait to totally commit to H...there will always be times that he will hurt you and disappoint you... I know that you are feeling vulnerable, but I think instead you should commit to yourself and stand strong in what you feel you need from him, without perpetuating the distance. Easier said than done. Journey---who wonders if we can tap into our fun selves again
PM talks about "resolving the past in the present", and about not dwelling on past hurts, but using them to understand the present interactions, and moving forward from there. To me this is one of its greatest points of value. According to this theory, even victims of extensive abuse can expect to recover fully and move forward. That is a powerful message of hope. For me, thinking back on my M, I can definitely see that the interactions that quickly developed between me and W, with her resisting and me trying to appease, were a direct extension of behaviors I had learned at home. It was not until I read PM and thought about it that I made the connection. For many years, I had felt "wronged" by W, and felt that I was blameless in what was going on, since after all I was trying everything I could think of, and she was just not responding. However, I now realize I was NOT trying EVERYTHING, and it wasn't until I was willing to take a stand and stick to it, no matter what, that things began to change. It's still very early in the change cycle, and way to soon to draw conclusions, but I really think we're finally on the right track. It will, of course, take a lot more work to make it stick, but I definitely have hope I didn't have before. That, and tools...
Quote: For many years, I had felt "wronged" by W, and felt that I was blameless in what was going on, since after all I was trying everything I could think of, and she was just not responding. However, I now realize I was NOT trying EVERYTHING, and it wasn't until I was willing to take a stand and stick to it, no matter what, that things began to change
Give yourself some credit. How can you be blame worthy if you were doing everything you could think of? How was it your fault that you just hadn't yet encountered the advice given in PM? That's like Salk blaming himself for people dying because he didn't invent the vaccine sooner.
I think all of us PM followers would agree that PM has led to dramatic improvements in our relationship, but it's not a one step process. I guess for me healing the past in the present is the phase I'm having trouble moving through right now. This is one that is throwing me into the crucible, not my H. Hopefully, he can hold on to himself while I struggle.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: This is one that is throwing me into the crucible, not my H. Hopefully, he can hold on to himself while I struggle.
That's a good point, and I think you're definitely seeing the effect of "interlocking crucibles" here. I definitely wish you luck, and hope you can use it as a growth opportunity.
Quote: Give yourself some credit. How can you be blame worthy if you were doing everything you could think of? How was it your fault that you just hadn't yet encountered the advice given in PM?
My point was, I was taking no responsibility at all for the state of my M... I just assumed it was "all her fault". How wrong I was!
Is this what you mean?- Our "faults" might be "conflict avoidance" or "insufficient backbone" or "inability to be cruel to be kind" etc. not necessarily the "faults" that our spouses might assign us such as not being attentive enough or gaining 10lbs. or being too critical etc. If I look at it this way then I have to agree "Guilty as charged". Time to re-read PM .
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Yes, but re-read it s-l-o-w-l-y, thinking all the while about yourself in relation to what you're reading. Also, you might start with the "crucible survival guide", I find that VERY helpful in helping me to think about how I might be contributing to whatever is happening. As Schnarch says, stop "working on your R", let your R work on YOU. You can't change HIM, you can only change YOURSELF, but doing that will help you grow, and will also force HIM to confront HIS issues. Trust me, they will be there.
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