Hi CeMar, Congrats on a step on your differentiation...posting your situation in a clear way for us to now pick apart! lol
One thing that stands out to me is how much your kids dominate your home life. I know once I had kids I was preoccupied with their needs and saw H as a needy adolescent type, wishing he could just grow up, make money and do the things I needed done around the house, and stop bothering me. I became fused in the mother role and lost touch with my sensuality. We were still trying to go out every week, which was difficult bc then I had to make an effort...and when a friend said to me " oh you still do that" we stopped. Far easier to order in pizza with the kids, pop in a tape,etc. I cannot emphasize how important it is to make time to go out together as adults, to get away from the kids, and even if you can't relate to one another, at least reinforce what it feels like to be a grown up couple. I agree with Mojo that "becoming the man YOU want to be" is a good thought to keep in mind. Taking charge and insisting on a time for the two of you and treating her as a woman in a respectful way is very sexy, regardless of how she sees it. Keep us posted! Journey
Quote: I became fused in the mother role and lost touch with my sensuality.
Even though I'm self-identified HD, I can relate to this on too. I think this is part of the reason, I was able to deal with too little sex for so long. Because I made the kids my top priority, I wasn't able to take a strong stand on the sex issue. Now that they are older and less in need of my attention, the sex issue has moved up from a weak #2 priority to a strong #2 priority in my marriage. The empty nest seemed to loom near as my youngest approached her 13th birthday and I started trying to imagine a life alone with my H and the life I imagined sucked. I either had to take action or become a WAW.
CeMar,
Why don't you ask your wife how she pictures your life together when the kids are grown and it's just the two of you? Why don't you explain to her that if things don't change you will probably be a WAH at that point?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Cemar: One of the things that I find most manly about my husband is that he is very firm with me when something is of the utmost importance to him. He caves in on lots of other things (as most married people do with each other--can you imagine if both people dug in a refused to budge on anything?!) but if it is important to him, he stands his ground in a most formidable way. I do not cross this line with him and whether I agree with him or not, I secretly respect him and find it an appealing quality.
So here ya got you and your wife. You want a better marriage but you are not willing to lay it on the line with her. You are not willing to say, Wife sit down. We are going to have a discussion about sex in which I explain my true feelings about our sex life.
You want to ask her vague questions about wanting a "great marriage" and tiptoe around the subject, taking whatever crumb she offers you and then being bitter and resentful about the fact that you sold yourself out in order to get it.
This is not going to arouse her or inspire respect or cause her to see the importance of it to you. If you can't bring yourself to TALK to her about it, then how do you expect her to instinctively know how high the stakes are in regards to this topic?
You have to take the first step which is confrontational and may not feel like it is progress. IT IS. And then in the next few days when she attempts to get the R back in familiar territory, you will have to confront her again. And you will have to continue to do this (in a loving fashion of course, holding on to yourself and calmly stating your needs for the marriage) until she realizes that this is not a passing phase and she can either step up to the plate or KNOW that she has made the choice to let you go.
I do not posess the ability to break everything down like alot of the people on this message board. There are alot of intelligent people on here with alot of good advice. If you really want to make things work you should listen to them and read the books. I, however, feel my marriage will always be the way it is now, and the sad thing is I don't care. I have made myself busy with other things, working with the dogs, working on fixing up the house, and I go out with friends sometimes (he hates to go out anywhere) People have asked why I am here if I seem to have already made up my mind. I stay because I am interested and like I said previously it is nice to know I am not alone. Good luck to you. Hope your sitch gets better
Annette, I personally think that the ED causes a lot more problems in your marriage than a lack of desire. Would H ever consider going to counseling to work through that? I know it is kind of a taboo topic in your house, but it your R will never get any better with such an elephant lurking in the background and scaring the crud outta your husband.
I do not posess the ability to break everything down like alot of the people on this message board. There are alot of intelligent people on here with alot of good advice. If you really want to make things work you should listen to them and read the books. I, however, feel my marriage will always be the way it is now, and the sad thing is I don't care. I have made myself busy with other things, working with the dogs, working on fixing up the house, and I go out with friends sometimes (he hates to go out anywhere) People have asked why I am here if I seem to have already made up my mind. I stay because I am interested and like I said previously it is nice to know I am not alone. Good luck to you. Hope your sitch gets better Annette
Annette: I've been on this board for over a year, although under a different username. I guess I'm embarrassed that my situation hasn't improved like I {optimistically and naively} thought it would.
I've read Michelle's book until I can practically recite it verbatim, followed the suggestions and listened to all the folks on this board. (What ever happened to Sooner?)
Like you, I have started other activities that are of interest to me (I've taken up spinning fiber & motorcycles)and working around the house. My marriage, too, will now be this way always and I'm coming to terms with it, as I do love my hubby very much.
One of the things that came up in therapy was the mean and viscious things that his ex did to him that have stayed with him for decades. The therapist came right out and told him that he was doing to me what his ex did to him. For a while, things were good, but I do believe that the negative memories of that past marriage are so strong he may never overcome them and I have to realize that I can't 'heal' him.
I am 55 and hubby is 52, not ancient, but I think that if he hasn't been able to overcome these memories by now, he won't. On the positive side, he laughs more and members of his family say he's a different and better person since we've been together. (We have a history which is way too long to write here. Met/fell in love/his mom hated me/we separated/reunited after 33ys.)
And, like you, I stay here because it helps to know I'm not alone.
Okay, now we have something to work with. Most of what you've posted here is "old news", and I'm pretty sure you've posted it before, but you seem to have some new insights, no doubt gained from the thinking that PM has caused you to do. So here is what your sitch looks like to me so far, from what you've posted:
First of all, you are WAY too busy, all of you (you, your wife and your kids). Trust me, kids do NOT need to be kept busy with organized sports and other activities constantly, 6 or 7 days a week. They need time to relax, veg out and be themselves. They need time to discover what it's like to be bored. Without that, they won't have a proper appreciation for what it's really like to be busy, or to be excited. Also, if you're having financial difficulty, these things are frills and should be the first things to be cut. Let each child choose ONE activity, and drop the rest. This will not only free up time, but money as well. Also, if on top of this you are keeping yourself busy with work and hobbies from 6AM till midnight, then you are engaging in avoidance behavior and you are not giving yourself any time to have meaningful interactions with your wife. I'm also kind of confused... do you mean to say that your wife stays up past midnight interacting with the kids? How old are they? My 18yo son does not stay up past 10pm on weeknights. It sounds like the two of you are spending all your time avoiding each other.
Quote: Yes, I believe that she finds me needy. That is the nature of the problem, all LD women find their husbands to be needy, becuase they need sex from them. I get sex once every 4-6 weeks, and this appears to be NEEDY. I always feel like a little boy in the candy shop asking mommy for some candy. I hate this. But I have tried not initiating with her and it makes no difference to her. I also have tried to be nice to her and try to help as often as possible around the house, yet that counts for nothing.
That's a lot to chew on. Where to begin. Unfortuantely, LD women cause their husbands to become unappealing, since he does all sorts of useless things to try and convince her to have sex.
Now here is where you totally lose me. You make blanket statements that make you sound unintelligent, lumping "all LD women" into a category and attributing some very impossible behavior to them. This is one of the things you will have to give up... your love of sweeping generalizations and dehumanizing tendencies.
Also, WANTING sex and NEEDING sex are two completely different things. Being NEEDY is very unattractive. With this attitude, what are you saying to your wife? Are you telling her that you desire HER, and that SHE is the one you want, or do you think she's getting the message that pretty much any warm body (or hand) would do? Sounds to me like what you're mainly talking about is relieving a PHYSICAL need, not an EMOTIONAL desire. So if you're not communicating DESIRE to her, why should she DESIRE you? Where is this "desire" supposed to come from? Another thing... as you know from reading the book, Schnarch says that if someone doesn't want sex, it ALWAYS makes sense. If your wife says that never having sex again would be fine with her, maybe what she's REALLY saying is that she never again wants to have the KIND of sex she's been having. You would do well to examine what your interactions with her are like, to see if you can discover what she finds distasteful. Maybe it's your attitude. Maybe she doesn't feel WANTED by you - she just gets the idea that you have a physical NEED that you want HER to fulfill, when your own hand would do the trick, which she would naturally resent. I'm just guessing here... you'll have to do the work yourself to discover what the real deal is.
Quote: So I guess I need to differentiate more. But how? I already do a bizzillion things. I golf, I have hobbies, and spend a ton of time in the gym. So how do I self soothe?
The things you are doing... golf, hobbies, exercise, etc... these are not differentiation activities, they are avoidance activities that indicate just how completely fused you are. Doing these things will not increase your differentiation. Differentiation comes from being able to DISCLOSE yourself honestly to your wife, to say "this is me", or "this is what I want", and then to REMAIN IN PROXIMITY and hold onto yourself in the face of her reaction, which will initially sound like rejection. Differentiation is being able to take a position that you KNOW she will disagree with, and stick to it, and not cave in or walk away, but remain there and not back down. This is where you will be saying "Here is what I will no longer tolerate in our marriage" and then dealing calmly with her predictable reaction, and holding firm, not backing down, till she can discuss it rationally from a position of increased respect. If you show respect for YOURSELF, then SHE will respect you more. If you show respect for HER, then she will respect not only YOU, but HERSELF as well, since she will feel more worthy of respect. So far, from what I can see, you don't show her much respect. You seem to feel you "have a right" to respect from her, and you're not willing to "go first." This is BS. You HAVE to go first, otherwise nothing will improve. Get over it. If YOU'RE not willing to step up to the plate, don't expect HER to. Also, as you begin to work on yourself, don't expect instant miracles. That will only lead to frustration. Don't have any kind of timeline in mind... just work on yourself, and post what you're doing and what effect it's having. The first effects will be internal... you will have a shift of attitude. You will work at being less needy, and confront yourself on WHY you are so needy... what does it say about YOU? What is your level of self-respect? These are the first questions you need to work on. You need to become less busy, so you have time for reflection and doing things differently.
I suggest you start by keeping track of things in a journal format, something like "A day in the life of CeMar", where each day you record what your interactions with your wife were, and how you felt about them. After a few days, you might begin to see patterns, and think about how you'd like things to be different. From there, you might be able to set some initial goals for yourself. You can keep this journal on your own, privately, or you can post it here, at least some of the time. Keep us up to date on what's happening, and maybe we can be of some help to you.
No, you are not ancient!!!! Neither am I (48) I wish I could get my H to even consider counseling. I have tried for 10 yrs to get him to agree, but he refuses. Now that I don't care what happens he would probably go
I see my H as a good friend, not much more. I don't know what will happen, but for now I keep busy, it helps. I am just not willing to put another 10 years of trying to get him to do something he can't/won't. Sorry your sitch hasn't gotten better.
No, he will not consider counseling for his ED. Before the heart problems, after about 4 yrs of begging he finally went to the dr. Tried one thing, then gave up. He then went back when viagra came out, but it didn't work for him. Said it gave him horrible headaches and gave up on that too. He believes now that his ED problems are totally physical. I don't think so. He has some really big issues to overcome with his past, but won't face them. His father was a military man and after he was out of the military he had a hard time finding a decent job, then was hurt, (don't know all the details) but then I would figure he became very depressed. From what I understand his mom was seeing someone else and is still with that man to this day. His father committed suiside. I don't think he has faced all that in reality. Anyway, I wouldn't even know how to bring up to him about his ED problem again. Its been so hush hush for so many years. We have grown so apart we don't talk about anything except the everyday stuff........ie: how was your day, ect, ect.
No, you are not ancient!!!! Neither am I (48) I wish I could get my H to even consider counseling. I have tried for 10 yrs to get him to agree, but he refuses. Now that I don't care what happens he would probably go
I see my H as a good friend, not much more. I don't know what will happen, but for now I keep busy, it helps. I am just not willing to put another 10 years of trying to get him to do something he can't/won't. Sorry your sitch hasn't gotten better. Annette
Hi Annette: I consider hubby my one grand passion. Unfortunately, because of his parents back in '69 it was not me who was his first wife. I have to wonder if I was if this problem would exist today.
Hubby was very forthcoming in therapy, to the point where I was almost sitting there with my mouth hanging open. His ex was worse than a b****. After listening for a while, the therapist turned to me and said, " I imagine that right about now, you'd like to strangle his ex." Well, strangle didn't come close to what I felt I wanted to do. She emasculated him.
When we first re-united, the sex was out of this world. Then it dwindled to almost nothing. Hubby admitted in therapy that he feared I'd leave, too. I'd suggest more therapy but I don't think it would do any good because I think The Wicked Witch has left an indelible mark on him.
I hope, for both you--Annette--and me that our sitchs do improve.
She emasculated him.