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To all:

I have finished reading PM and I am going back through it again to try to understand it better. One thing I noticed again right up front is that it says that "a well differentiated person has no fear of being away from or out of a relationship." I can see myself getting there. Part of my problem is that my whole life is about being with my "lover". For the 10 years I spent as a single, my focus was on finding a "Lover", which I thought I did with my wife. 4 years later, I have a wife but no "Lover". So now I have spent 14 years with a roomate and have no "Lover". So now my life focus is again in finding a "Lover". But PM trys to discourage us from "needing affirmation from others". So I am NOT differentiated if I feel I need a lover. But the GOAL of PM is to acheive a marriage where being lovers is the ULTIMATE. THe IDEAL marriage is where 2 people DESIRE each other, and this is the goal of PM. But at the same time, we are to NOT have this need to be "Desired", yet the result of PM is to be "Desired". I am getting so darn confused here. So if I forget about being "Desired" by the wife, this is how I WILL get to be desired? And if wanting to be "Desired" is wrong, how do I get rid of this "Fusing" trait?

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I would say if you are well differentiated you would want to have a lover but you wouldn't fear not having one. For example, if you were a neglected child you might fear that your parent wasn't going to feed you dinner, but if you were a well-cared for child you would look forward to your delicious, nutritious meal. Since you are actually an adult you can prepare your own meals and even share them with others. An extremely emotionally-fused person is like someone who hoards food in their closet or someone who is only capable of feeding themselves by begging for food from others.


"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
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I don't think he is saying we should walk away from our need to be desired; rather, we have little control over whether or not our spouses desire us and we have to be able to hold onto ourselves in the context of their rejection. It then becomes a struggle over what we are willing to live with, whether we are being selfish and " am I destroying my marriage, or trying to make it worth saving?"

Journey...who is only halfway through the PM bible

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I like the direction here - but what is PM


"As soon as somebody falls in love, all the wits seem to dribble out the bottom of his head." Garion from Castle of Wizardry. And Jeff is obviously in love.
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PM = "Passionate Marrige", by David Schnarch, Ph.D. Excellent book, and the first one that really explained to me the exact dynamics within a marriage in a way I could understand and take action on.


TimV2.0

Me: 53
Her: 56
D26 (at home)
S23 (at home)
S18 (at home)

Formerly Tim47...
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Hi CeMar,

Did you ever know someone who tried too hard to be popular? Just the fact that you noticed means he probably failed. You just want to tell them to "lighten up." If they do lighten up they probably won't be as popular as they want, but they won't be the butt of jokes anymore, either.

We want to be popular and exciting to our respective spouses - but so many of us are trying too hard. How do become popular again? By not trying too hard. If we don't quickly succeed we become disappointed and unhappy. This unhappiness is the result of being too attached to the outcome of our actions. In other words: Fused. How do you get out of that fix? Differentiation.

What will get your W back? Your natural charm. Whatever won her to begin with.
How can you do it? By not chasing her away. You are the bait. You're not on a search and destroy mission.
What do you do when she doesn't come around? Differentiate so you're not so freaked out about the inevitable setbacks that you blow the whole thing and cling to her feet in a puddle of tears. (NOT SEXY!)
How do you keep things on track? Continue differentiation to maintain healthy boundaries.

I'm finding, as others have, that the merging of souls in a relationship through sex is an unrealistic goal. This is what I've wanted for a long long time. It's the ultimate escape from loneliness - and it's an illusion. The author, Hotchkiss, of the book on narcissism, Why Is It Always About You? points out this need for merging without boundaries is both narcissistic and infantile.

Ouch! It's time I grow up and find something else to do rather that JUST trying to get back into the womb.

Since puberty, sex or the pursuit of sex has been the most important thing in my life. It's high time I established some other goals and grew some other interests or passions. Maybe even become really competent at something. Chicks dig competent dudes - but guys slobbering over sex is a real turn-off.

Tom

Last edited by NHTom; 06/28/04 01:14 PM.
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This must be the 50 millionth post on the desire issue...but here goes:
I have realized that I do need H to desire me in order to be mentally healthy. I don't think it's a fused thing to want to be desired; the fusion is when you get locked in a dynamic where the situation does not change. Needing to be desired is just that, a human need. For me, the sexual obsessiveness, while of course due to a lack of sex, was really fueled by the rejection.
Tom, you don't impress me as a lonely, incompetent guy who has to fill the void... I think you are hurting from not feeling loved which makes the sex larger than life. You ( and all of us here)are handling some very painful stuff. That said, I think it's great to have some actitivies for fun, esteem ,soothing, etc. and you are right...they help in differentiation because we become emotionally stronger/calmer when involved in a task.
J---who is wondering if posting on this board counts as an activity


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J,
I agree.
I do need H to desire me and it is essential in order for me to stay his healthy and happy wife.

Furthermore, I need to be desired in a way that SPEAKS to me. His brand of desire just doesn't do it for me; it is too timid and noncommital.
The difference from the present-day Honey and the Honey of old is that I now see that trying to powerhouse him into being passionate is a dead end road. Trying to force it or ultimatum it aint gonna work.
I now see that I have to finesse it out of him, as opposed to either stubbornly sitting back and waiting for it to happen, or demanding in advance that it be there the next time. So I have to walk a fine line...I finesse his desire out of him, without completely taking over the whole operation and allowing him to "borrow" my desire, which is how he prefers it.
He wants to make a noncommital move, wait for me to take the reins and when I get turned on, HE gets turned on.

This works for me a lot of the time, but NOT always and this is the big difference between now vs. then, in our M.

He is getting much better with his desire. He did really great this weekend with two things: I had two occasions to go to, without him, and on both I dressed really sexy. He did not make a mention of it (ie, ask me to change or act prudish) and on the second night he was actually very complimentary to me about how I looked! SHOCK.
Then yesterday he twice felt me up when I bent over. Now this might seem like small potatoes to the HD men here, but that is a BIG step for my H. I am very proud of him for stepping out of his comfort zone.

Today I am struggling with: A) complimenting him on the step outta the comfort zone; or B) playing it cool and acting as if he does this all the time.
Option A will embarrass him but I don't want to not give him the praise and motivation that he might be seeking, you know?
I think I'll just play it by ear.

I will close on this note: I can't wait to have this baby so I can have my body back to do with, as I please!!

Honey

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Quote:

Then yesterday he twice felt me up when I bent over.




Wow I wish my W liked getting felt up out of the blue. I think I would be in heaven....

Lee

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Quote:

Tom, you don't impress me as a lonely, incompetent guy who has to fill the void...



Thank-you, J. But, like the cartoon says, "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog." (cartoon) I can sniff trees with the best of them.
Quote:

I think you are hurting from not feeling loved which makes the sex larger than life. You ( and all of us here)are handling some very painful stuff. That said, I think it's great to have some actitivies for fun, esteem ,soothing, etc. and you are right...they help in differentiation because we become emotionally stronger/calmer when involved in a task.



I brought my own issues into my M. Many of them deal (or don't deal) with insecurity and not just a need to be desired, but a craving. I can talk a good game and sometimes even sound dignified when I have complete control of what I send out. But I HAVE been the puddle of tears gathering around my W's feet.

I'm sure I'm not alone on this board with these issues. Realistically, I need to deal with these before I can effectively affect change in my R. And again, I'm sure it's the same with others on this board.

Tom

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