You're describing your wife as if she was a real person instead of an evil paperdoll so I know things are really improving. ____________________________________
I've been thinking a lot about this comment because I didn't realize that I was portraying my W as evil. Upon reflection, how else would I think she was being portrayed? I've only begun posting here because of my frustrations with her and it was not only foolish, but egocentric of me to think I was speaking "objectively" about her. (Thanks MM for showing me reality again.)
If you met my W in RL, you'd think she was pretty, sweet, outgoing, fun and intelligent. The females would think they had just met their new best friend. That's the way everyone sees her. That's the way she is.
So, for the record, my W is not evil. She just doesn't want me.
Quote: If you met my W in RL, you'd think she was pretty, sweet, outgoing, fun and intelligent. The females would think they had just met their new best friend
I'm sure this is true. You would probably like my husband too. I'm sure all of the LD spouses are good people in many ways and the more we are naturally conveying that in our posts, the more differentiated we probably are.
I don't want to hijack your thread but this brings to mind an interesting event from yesterday. I was speaking to one of my sisters on the phone and it turns out that she is the LD in her relationship.(I probably could have guessed this since her H teases me endlessly about catching me and H in the act when we were all vacationing together.) I got the distinct impression finding out that I was HD made her want to change her ways since I'm the big sister she looks up to. Maybe you HD guys should just get some older HD female mentors for your LD wives.LOL
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Lemonade Lady wrote: Ok, I'm going to go against the crowd here and say, Who cares? So she lied about reading your book. The changes are still positive right? ____________________________________
I agree with you. The lie was no big deal to me. My disappointment was due to other factors.
The change in her behavior was great. It lasted two days and that's not uncommon for the changes she makes. The unusual part was that the change included touching me. Normally, it's more along the lines of being complimentary, which means very little to me (unless it's about sex).
It was 3 weeks from the time that she said she read my copy of PM to our talk. That's time to get her own copy if she wanted to.
The part of PM she read doesn't cover anything to lead to her touching me. So, I'm back to the same dilemma I've always had. Either she doesn't know what I want/need or she knows and chooses to not meet even my non-sexual needs. Since PM didn't tell her to and she didn't have to ask me, it's clear that she knows (and has known). Welcome back to the reality of her choice, Mike.
That's the part that hurts, and I'd guess it's the same for all of us. There's no talk I can have with her that will make a difference. She already knows what she needs to know. I suppose I hold out the hope that if I can just tell her the "one thing" to make her see, then everything will change and she'll become an instant HDW. That's got to be the ultimate cheeseless tunnel, huh?
I agree with you about me being upbeat with her. I have the same responsibility to love her whether I'm getting anything out of it or not. But it sure would be easier to do if I was.
BTW, W's behavior of last night and today is same as pre-PM convo. It was nice while it lasted.
Mike - who has great kids and lives a blessed life
Quote: I suppose I hold out the hope that if I can just tell her the "one thing" to make her see, then everything will change and she'll become an instant HDW. That's got to be the ultimate cheeseless tunnel, huh?
Mike, I have this same "fantasy." That something will sink in (FINALLY) and she'll crack like a libidinous egg. It ain't gonna happen.
One of the guys I work with brought me a CD to listen to. I can't remember the singer, but there's a song on the album called "Food and Pussy." The lyrics are pretty simple: "Food and Pussy, that's all I need. How come? 'Cause that's the way God made me." I plan to pop this little ditty into the CD player in the van when my W goes for a pee break on our vacation. Maybe she'll get the message when it's in musical form.
Quote: Welcome back to the reality of her choice, Mike.
Okay, let's see if we can break this down a bit, PM-style...
Quote: Either she doesn't know what I want/need or she knows and chooses to not meet even my non-sexual needs.
Okay, maybe. But maybe it's because she's inventing her OWN choice, based on what she'd PREFER to choose (meeting her own needs at the expense of yours). My guess is, she's choosing this over confronting the real issues, because it seems "safe". As long as you don't PRESENT her with a two-choice dilemma (either by laying it out for her, or by changing YOURSELF in ways that FORCE her to choose), she's free to continue dodging the issue.
Quote: There's no talk I can have with her that will make a difference. She already knows what she needs to know.
Or maybe not. What she "knows" is that you'll continue to accept the status quo. Oh, maybe you'll get snippy once in a while, but you won't really leave her or anything. Therefore, if she can put up with your occasional tantrums, she won't see any reason for real or lasting change in HERSELF.
Quote: I have the same responsibility to love her whether I'm getting anything out of it or not. But it sure would be easier to do if I was.
True, you do have a responsibility to HER, but you also have a responsibility to YOURSELF (your integrity). As long as you're willing to sell yourself out, she'll be willing to let you. Also, SHE has a responsibility to YOU. If you never call her on it, though, don't expect her to spontaneously realize this.
tim47 wrote: What she "knows" is that you'll continue to accept the status quo. Oh, maybe you'll get snippy once in a while, but you won't really leave her or anything. (and) ...but you also have a responsibility to YOURSELF (your integrity). As long as you're willing to sell yourself out, she'll be willing to let you. _________________________________
As I've stated before, the integrity issue is critical for me. However, I have more than one area I must maintain integrity.
My kids are my first concern. The ages of my kids (under 10) make it such that I'm better for them by staying put, even if the best sexual days of my M are behind me. Maybe that changes as they get older. I'll have to evaluate that as I go.
My second consideration is my job at the church. If I leave/divorce it affects a lot more people than just the ones in my home. People would be hurt and disillusioned and at the very least, some (maybe many) would leave the church. There is the very real possibility that I'd have to give up my job for the church to continue in a healthy manner. That would take away my ability to provide for my kids, too.
I'm not paralyzed by fear, but I do see the realities clearly. I will continue to practice the PM principles to strengthen myself for whatever comes. (BTW, for those who may not know, every one of the PM principles are Bible based!) But there are some aspects of my life that are not my own. I wouldn't expect that to be the same for everyone.
I remember the dilemma Schnarch spoke of when he faced the possibility of divorce after moving to CO. He talked about the affect not working it out would have on his practice. Maybe that's my crucible moment to come.
Anyhow, I'd really like for someone to hijack this thread. I've talked wayyyy too much about me here. MM offered to be a HDW mentor for my wife. Let's talk about that!
Mike - MM would really hate me then! (I mean MORE than she does now. )
Quote: MM offered to be a HDW mentor for my wife. Let's talk about that!
WTF? I think I suggested you might find one, I didn't volunteer my services. Hmm...on second thought it does have interesting possibilities for a second career or interesting hobby. I could discuss a subject which I enjoy and do a good deed at the same time. Wait a minute. I would have to give you my phone number and you know you couldn't be trusted with that! LOLOL
Quote: MM would really hate me then! (I mean MORE than she does now. )
Pathetic cry for validation! I hate the troglodytes currently running our country. I only have pity for their followers. Besides, I know you're only a Republican because all the guys with "big" arms in California have to stick with Arnold.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
The beautiful, talented and uber-intelligent MM wrote: I would have to give you my phone number and you know you couldn't be trusted with that! __________________________
I am sooooooooo trustworthy 0:-D hehehe
Mike - pathetic, needy validatee...and did I tell you that pity sex is OK with me?
All of us are terribly familiar with trying to make a marriage with a reluctant partner. It's not just the sex, but the reality of knowing that you are not the center of your spouse's world that is so hard to deal with.
We have done everything imaginable to meet the needs that our partners have. Gone over and above what many others would have done and have not thrown in the towel. We keep trying for many reasons.
When we are VERY clear about our needs to our spouses, we are rebuffed, rejected, and held hostage by a spouse that will not make the connection that intimacy is NOT always sex. The pain of that repeated rejection cuts deep.
I often think about the concept that marriage partners should be equally yoked. If the partners are not equal, one partner does most of the work while the other one is along for the ride. You get tired from doing most of the work and not getting your spirit refreshed by your partner.
The times that there were small changes with my H were always only temporary. I tried to make out that he might wake up from his slumber and and finally be willing to be the husband that he promised to be when he took the same marriage vows that I took. Not to be.
I also shared repeatedly with my H that I needed more from him than he was giving to me emotionally and spiritually. He heard what I said each time but he never really LISTENED. When I told him that I felt that he was pushing me into the arms of other men by his lack of attention to me, he was more worried about himself than what my having an affair would do to us. Even that was not a wake up call to him. I did not have an affair, but I was sorely tempted many times.
You are trying to do what is right for everyone. I applaude you for holding to your decision to stay especially with young children in your life. Holding on as you are may try you beyond what you have to give. Some sacrifices are worth making, but some are not. Only you know what decisions are right for you and which are wrong for you. Those decisions may change as your life changes.
If our spouse's eyes, minds, and hearts would open up to us, none of us would have ever had to come here. The success stories are rare, but they are out there. May you find at least contentment in your situation.
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