Here we go!!!

[InherJourney]

Hi Dave,
H and I also have a "date night" where a lot of mind games go on, which is why we decided to add a "spontaneous night" once a week as well. Somehow I remember a time when sex wasn't so calculated and negotiated...
Anyway, there have been times when I have acted "asleep" on date night even though underneath I wanted the sex because I wanted H to jump through hoops for me. Ultimately, he told me in a very Schnarch-like way ( even though I am the one reading the book) he would not tolerate my mixed signals and I had better make it very clear to him I wanted sex.
Journey

[NotATLDave]

Journey,
That's and interesting insight. I'm going to accept her behavior as a "challenge" instead. What a riot!!! I can see it now....

M: (in my best Isaac Hays voice) "Come on baby, wake up...I want to take you upstairs and make sweet love to you"
W: "But I'm asleep"
M: "Yah baby, that's what they all say"
W: "No, really...I just want to go to sleep"
M: "oh ya baby...that's fine...you don't need to be awake to get started, but I bet you'll wake up when *I* get started"
W: "get that thing away from me you freak!"


SD, I know what you are saying. I have found an ironic parallel to when I started mountain biking (again) 5 years ago. The first time I fell, I laid on the ground for a bout 5 minutes and had to do a "full system check" before I got back up. Now, after flying over the handlebars countless times, I can spring back up instantly and get back on and ride despite bloody wounds etc. I've simply developed the ability to turn a crash, which used to spoil a ride, into a "blip". I'm finding that I'm developing the ability to "release" my negative energy much quicker now and recover. Last night was a perfect example of that. When I got in bed with her and we started fooling around, I then realized what today would have been like had I stayed in my office, pissed off and gone to bed with my back turned to her. I wanted to have good feelings for her. This morning, I woke up lovin' her and we had a nice, humorous chit-chat.

So while the mind-game, missed signal thing can seemingly "spoil" an evening, it might help to learn to get over it quickly. My first instinct last night was to go into the bedroom and simply hug her till relaxed but she initiated the passionate kissing. It makes me think that Journey might be 100% correct that my W was actually "in the mood" for real.

[honeypot]

Dave~
I can't imagine flying over the handlebars of a bike and ending up bloody, but I LOVED your analogy nonetheless! It is sooooooo true that it does start to become a blip. It used to send me into the pit of depression lasting a week or more, but now I can let it out, say my piece and be ready for life again.
Glad to hear that everything went well for you!

HP

[SuperDave]

I'd like to concurr with honeypot (Oh-oh I'm giving her some other-validation).
The abitity to bounce back is what I need to develop as I have spent countless sleepless nights after being rejected. I will [try] not [to] let that happen to me again.
SD

[NotATLDave]

Just got the Lou Paget books. W brought the amazon box upstairs and begged to know what was inside. So I told her it was a gift for us. She didn't respond enthusiastically but wasn't offended either. I simply said "hey, we have a sex life now...let's make it great, I'll read mine...you don't have to read yours...it just seems like fun". She agreed that it would be fun in an ambivalent kind of way but she also gave me a brief nonverbal on the way out of my office that indicated amusement with the idea...it probably just took her a minute to get used to it.

I bumped into her again and she said that she was having trouble finding time to read the "other book" (PM). And I said that these could be on concurrent tracks.

We'll see.

[Tim2point0]

Dave, Wow, we're really burning up these boards today, aren't we? I have read your posts, and mean to respond, but it's been a busy day. Anyway, my thought when reading about your W falling asleep was that I would have at least attempted to wake her up and get things going. I could see her point that if you just left her sleeping, you weren't really giving her a chance. You just took her falling asleep as a personal rejection. At least if you had woken her up and she STILL wasn't interested, then you would've had some concrete info to work with, instead of just assumption. That's the thing I'm working on with W... getting the communication on an EXPLICIT footing, instead of just making assumptions. Too often in the past, when she picks me up from work and starts ragging about all the things stressing her out, I've just taken that as a blanket declaration of "Don't even go there", and I didn't. Now, instead, I've decided to go ahead and try anyway, just to see what happens. After what happened last night, I also plan to say something like "I'm going to be initiating a LOT more often in the near future, and while I don't expect to be successful ALL the time, I do expect you to at least consider the idea, and whether it is at ALL feasible, and then decline only if you really MUST, instead of making a judgement earlier in the evening that you're just not up to it tonight." During our convo last night, at one point I said that her reaction when I suggested taking a shower told me that the possibility of sex hadn't even ENTERED her mind, because we had just ML the night before, but she said that on the contrary, she had EXPECTED me to initiate, and had judged AHEAD of time that she would decline, but hadn't gotten around to telling me that before I brought it up. Needless to say, I found that even MORE insulting, since she had invalidated even the possibility even before anything had a chance to happen. I think the thing I'm working towards is that on ANY given evening, the possibility would exist, and if either of us brings it up, the other would consider it, roll it around in their mind, and then either accept, or decline for good reason, and offer an alternate. That, to me, would be the best situation...

[Dmsw4]

What can I say? We're all messed up. I had a lot more to say, but it seems to be off subject-all about me and my sitch. I admire your stick-to-it-iv-ness. Try a little tenderness-have you tried flowers, putting the kids to bed, doing the dishes. Saying nice things about her to your friends? My H would always complain about our lack of S to his buddies in front of me-How is that supposed to get me in the mood? If you think it's been bad buddy, you just wait!

[MJontheMend]

Dave,
I had a couple perhaps not too useful thoughts regarding your description of your evening. First as a HD woman who almost always falls asleep before her H in the evening, I have to say I don't think you can necessarily count that as rejection. I would love it in that situation if my H would wake me up and make his move. I'm just like an ADD toddler I guess. I go all day and then just fall over at night. I guess you would be the best judge of whether this is the case with your W.

which sort of knocked her out of the running for an O

This is the kind of thing I just don't get. Why does she give up so easily? If that happened to me, I'd just say "ouch" and get my H going again or if he was already done, I'd have him finish me off or I'd finish myself off with some passive participation from him.

P.S. Do you like my new signature? I was thinking about your "Why would you want to ML?" question while I was watching classics videos the other day. LOLOL

[NotATLDave]

I'd just say "ouch" and get my H going again or if he was already done, I'd have him finish me off or I'd finish myself off with some passive participation from him

Um Mojo, I might have glossed over the situation some...she wears braces...there was blood.

She gets major credit for hanging in there and trying to enjoy it which, after a while, she seemed to. It was just that she was about to peak right when this happened (she on top) and I leaned forward to put my hands "behind" her and whacked her in the mouth with my head.

[NotATLDave]

Mellanie,

It looked like your reply was to Tim but I just noticed that it was to SuperDave. I've read your sitch on the other boards along with this reply and I feel pretty bad for you with what your H is doing.

Anyway, your post (and your other threads) are very "telling". I would highly recommend that you slow down, and try to work on some of this anxiety you are feeling. Step 2 would be to stop analyzing your H and definitely stop taking ANY responsibility for how he feels. Your goal should not be to understand *him*, but rather understand yourself, your values, and your integrity. By integrity, I'm talking about a type of integrity that represents something very personal to who you are...not an idealized definition of the word as it applies to our church leaders etc. 3rd step would be to get a copy of Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch...it's only like $15 on Amazon and is worth every penny if you are feeling even a fraction of the anxiety that I detect in your posts. This book has changed the lives of many people on this board. I know we sound like broken records, but it's true. Granted, you are in a much more difficult position than most of us in this forum. We aren't dealing with infidelity. PM isn't a "recipe book"...it's very theoretical but it gives you an excellent understanding of "what happened" and why. You mention things like dates and romance..,trust me, these things are "fluff" compared to the real poop that's happening underneath most marriages. Recipe books that recommended "sheduled date nights" are only good for 2 clueless people in a relationship, scratching their heads wondering why their marriage sucks. PM gets to the heart of (the majority) marriages where one person acts radically different than the other and provides a good "forensic" toolkit for understanding these things.

My W is a perfect mother, homemaker, great cook, hilariously funny, great personality, sociable, kind to my parents and others, loves small animals and children, goes to church, volunteers and keeps my clothes clean. Everyone she comes into contact with thinks she's "awesome". I was on the verge of having an affair partially because of the SSM but upon closer inspection and PM etc. I discovered that there were some real issues below the surface and I was responsible for a lot of it. My W doesn't stand up for herself and used to let me get away with treating her less than equal. Her lack of desire was obvious but she was even too fearful to explain her lack of desire as anything but a natural occurrence amongst married people. So here's 2 things that drove me from her...first, I had little respect for her because she wouldn't stand up for herself and her values and secondly because she showed no desire for me while other women did. It's a simple recipe for disaster.

When I realized how messed up things were, I responded with more romance, flowers, gifts, dates, pleas for intimacy, conversation, quality time, while at the same time I was doing every act of service possible. Guess what?...the sexual frequency didn't increase and the times we did ML, she made it awful. While she couldn't verbalize what she really wanted, I discovered what she really needed from me by reading PM. It was for me to simply be "me" but also defend "me" and express "me" and soothe "me" then offer "me" to ML to "her". Why? because she once fell in love with "me". We both adapted to the assumptions of who we thought each other was and like two moving targets, we never could connect. While our sex has increased a ton, there is still a problem with her defending herself and I'm still having "respect" problems with her. We (all couples) differentiate at the same level. I recently realized that my lack of differentiation came mostly from "other-validation" and lack of ability to "self-soothe". I would also not defend my integrity though I could candidly share myself. My W on the other hand is a master of self-soothing and self-validation but absolutely awful at sharing her true self and defending her integrity. Put a number to all these elements and the sum of each of our scores would be equal. This is a critical thing to know but it will require PM to "get it" right.

I'm guessing that your sitch is salvageable. I posted a question to the Victims of Affairs in the infidelity board and I saw that you replied. You were one of the only people who took a little responsibility and seemed to (now) understand the importance of sexual desire balance. Most of the others were so seemingly hurt by the situation, that they could only point their finger at their cheating spouse without realizing that they have 4 more fingers pointing back at themselves.