You goofball, I "invented" it in the sense that I didn't learn it from anywhere. I'm sure it's documented somewhere by many others...maybe not because it caused severe hand cramping and I couldn't sustain it for more than a couple of minutes.
Is an inventor any less worthy if his invention already exists despite the fact that he developed his version of it in a vacuum?
HD, are you a patent attorney or something? If so, I want to patent this as Antler's Eager Beaver Knuckle Twist Twirl.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I turned up the volume a bit tonight and I think my W had a crucible moment though it seemed "mild" if there's such a thing. Here's how it went down.
Today (my sanctioned ride day), I had a big, long ride with some of my racing buddies and got home around 7:00, cleaned up, dressed a little nicer than usual and even shaved, then put D5 to bed and at 8pm, joined W and settled in for Sun PM TV night. We were watching "Sweet Home Alabama" which I've seen extensively on westbound flights. We were waiting for the Sopranos which didn't come on tonight. So I asked if we go upstairs for a little 1 on 1 time because I just wasn't into watching this same TV show. She responded do we have to go now? I said, "well, I think I'll go up and I would love to have you come, but I'm not going to sit around and watch this again, but if we had some ice cream or something, I might stay".
Ok folks, at this point, I'm sure you are disappointed in me for turning down the pressure but the truth was that I was over 4000 calories in the red from today and was ravenous...I really wanted something to eat and I knew I wouldn't be able to sit in the bedroom and wait without coming back down for something to eat. I truly could be happy having my snack (first priority) while hanging out with her. It was sort of a compromise but my stomach wasn't feeling very differentiated tonight...it was needy and it took control over my brain.
So I did hang out with her and she said she was in the mood for a "dumb, salad-like" movie. We watched to the end while I ate a whole variety of foods. When it was over, I came up with her and watched her get in bed, close her eyes, and pull the covers over her head. I got up, turned off the light and started to leave the room.
W: "What are you doing?"
M: "Letting you sleep...I'm not tired"
W: "Then why did you get in bed?"
M: "I thought we were going to have some time together"
W: (pissed) "Ok, fine...let's go"
M: "No, it's really ok...you are obviously very sleepy, I'll go read in the other room".
W: (even more firm and tense) "Come on, *let's* go!"
M: "Seriously, it's fine...I don't want to. You made your choice, you decided to watch the movie and go to sleep AND THAT'S FINE....good night, I love you"
And I left. But after reading an article, I started thinking that I might have violated my integrity by not at least giving her her nightly "good night kiss" (do I suck or what). So I went back in and she was still awake. I came up and gave her a kiss and let her know that I just wanted to give her her nightly kiss and let her know that she is fine by me. She was very relieved to hear this but we initiated a brief discussion and I can't remember how it came to the following..
W: "I really DID miss you today, and I do love cuddling and being physical with you...but I just wasn't feeling like being cuddly with anyone because I was at the pool and in the sun and " (blah blah blah) (the crucible heats up..)
M: "Then why didn't you say something when I was talking about being together?"
W: "Well, I just don't want you to get upset with me" (crucible is cooking now because even she is not buying this load of BS)
M: "Listen, all I ask is that, if I start talking about spending some time together along with shaving and cleaning up nicely..."
W: "oh God!" (she realized that I was thinking about this from the minute I came home)
M: "...that, at that point in time, I have no expectations and my heart hasn't 'engaged' into anything yet. So I really would prefer that you share these "feelings" before I get my expectations set and get into bed to see you with the covers pulled over your head...this feels much worse than telling me at my first sign of initation (it's 'rejection' but I'm avoiding using that word).
W: (getting anxious again) "But, I thought I told you that I just wanted to watch a dumb movie" (crucible time...she just realized that she 'avoids' standing up for herself and her feelings)
M: "Well, I assumed that you are wanted to watch the movie to relax a little, then we would go to bed for some together time"
W: (sincerely) "Oh, I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough...I just thought it was obvious"
M: "When I say I want to be with you and you don't feel like it...tell me 'I don't feel like it tonight but we can spend some time together tomorrow or some other time soon" (If I weren't such a dumbass, I would have told her that this is a perfect example of "making yourself vulnerable" but I don't want to overuse the special PMisms).
W: "But I thought you needed 4 days between "being together" before you start getting "edgy".
M: "Oh geez, that's the bare minimum..."
W: (interrupts with an something akin to an eyeroll) "Oh brother" (no longer in crucible but don't worry, it was there long enough to register)
M: "....It's not like riding my bike where I DO get edgy if I don't do it consistently. It's all about boosting my emotional connection to you and I would like to have a little emotional money in the bank instead of letting it always deplete. It really boosts my connection to you. (not sure if this is undifferentiated but I just felt like saying because it's true still) Plus, I was probably in the mood tonight because it was so long before we got together last Friday night"
W: (smirky laugh) "But you got 2 for the price of one."
M: "Oh, come on...you know it's got nothing to do with orgasms"
W: (laughing) "geez, I know, I'm just kidding". (note that Gottman would like this use of humor)
M: "Well, tomorrow's a holiday, you should get your sleep to be well rested" (I have no idea why I'm saying this...I sort of do because it's a response to her comment about the pool making her tired)
W: "Wait, what does that mean?...I'm I missing something?"
M: "Like I said, when I want to be with you, the feeling doesn't exactly go away overnight. If you can manage your energy enough to slot some time tomorrow night, that would be great and if you still aren't feeling it, just remember what I asked...tell me if you aren't feeling like it"
Ok folks, at this point, I'm probably making a big mistake by offering her "outs" but I feel like this is a thin line between coercion and motivation. She definitely gets the point. I would have absolutely loved to ML to her tonight and it would have been "perfect" as far as timing goes. I am dying to combine a big day of riding with ML (think about George Castanza on Seinfeld when he was ML and pulled out a sub sandwich to combine eating with ML).
W: "ok" (she's still being 'light' and sweet)
M: "btw, I just wanted to say that I've enjoyed everything you've been doing lately...I really feel like there's some good sizzle in the R"
(she seemed to be instantly irritated with the last sentence and me, being undifferentiated again rephrased it...). I mean, I just wanted to say that it feels like we are "married" again."
(Not sure if that was better, but I think it reinforces the point that she's beginning to live up to my definition of what a marriage is supposed to be).
W: "That's nice" (probably trying to get me to shut up)
M: "Anyway, get some sleep"
I'm starting to understand the "process". There is not a magic convo that will instantly push them into a PM-like crucible where they experience some sort of overwhelming breakthrough in understanding about themselves. It's more like a creative way of reminding them to examine a particular issue without having to define the issue for them...you simply state how their behavior affected you and then let them associate an issue with it. BTW. I think Schnarch probably gives the "digest" version of his sessions and the "breakthroughs" are probably the result of multiple sessions.
BTW. I knew my initiation would be a long shot. We had a session Fri night that was unbelievably intense to the point that I didn't want anyone physically near me the next morning. This feeling was a first for me which made it easier understand my W's feelings. I assumed that she probably felt the same but that hers lingers for days instead of hours (like me). That's why I initiated. It might push her to deal better with these feelings.
One of the things I keep thinking about is re-addressing the "frequency". She mentioned "every 4 days" but that's not bi-weekly because it fudges out 1 day. I started trying to rephrase it tonight as a process to "increase my emotional connection and feelings towards her". I'm hoping to use this as a "crucible inducing" 2-choice dilemma - "ML more frequently and have a husband who feels connected to me OR don't and risk having my husband not have good feelings towards me". I'm still working this one out as it seems more manipulative and any advice would help.
I better go. Good night folks.
Last edited by AntlerDave; 05/31/0403:17 AM.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Man, I'm surprised I didn't get one reply from my big post...maybe it was too long.
Anyhow, I'm hoping things go better tonight. W straddled me and gave me a kiss before going up to bathe our D5. She might be sending me a hint.
Today was very hard for me to be "family" oriented even though we spent the day together. We saw cheaper by the dozen at the dollar theater and holly cow...wrong movie to watch when you aren't feeling very "family-ish". But when we got home, I took a nap and that helped.
We'll see. If we do anything, it will probably be a 10 year record for the shortest interval between sessions.
Wait...hold on folks! I think I just realized something. I think there's a link between always being "good natured" and our respective situations. Just think how people nurture plants and how their connection to it is probably related to the amount of work they put into it. Its a wierd theory that I need to think about some more. We might be as easy to live with as an artificial plant...how much attention do they get?
Damn mojo, I'm still ADD I guess.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
AD, I usually look at longer posts and think "Yikes, I'll come back to that one later". I enjoyed your story and I particularly liked the comments in brackets where Schnarch interjects. I'm not up to speed with crucibles yet. I vaguely remember them from school chemistry but being able to get your W into one then heating her with your Bunsen Burner sounds like a skill that needs careful cultivation. SD
My loser wife is asleep on the sofa. Not sure what to do about it. She and honey's H get the prize for being the biggest duds on the planet. I guess the pressure from last night caused a reptilian response despite the fact that she was seemingly affectionate all night. HOM HOM HOM...sounds like a meditation chant.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Wow...I just lost a long winded post because my W walked in. Let me reconstruct it.
I came upstairs to help D5 (who had been trying to fall asleep for 2 hours) to self-hypnotize herself to sleep. W came up and I told her I'd be in the bedroom in a minute. I thought this would give her another opportunity to de-blunder the night. When I got to the bedroom, she was in bed with the light off. So I just kept walking to my office to journal and work on HOM. She heard me walk by and called me on my office line and wanted to know why I wasn't coming to bed or talking to her. I told her that I wasn't ready to fall asleep yet. Maybe it was undifferentiated for me to avoid telling her that I was disappointed in her. Anyway, I started journaling this scenario and reading about Tim's crucible moment, when I heard a knock on the door.
She came in and started trying to push me to explain the "tension" she was feeling and was wondering if I was "mad". I then told her that I wasn't mad but "disappointed". I said that falling asleep on a scheduled "date night" is akin to me taking a cell-phone call while on a dinner date and I didn't appreciate it and I was simply leaving the environment to deal with it.
....wait folks, I'm going to go back into the bedroom and turn this situation around because she actually gave me a big kiss along with a titty-twister (I guess it was affectionate though painful) and told me she wouldn't let me stay up in this mood. I caved. I'm feeling mixed. Maybe I should go in.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Ummm....I'm not sure how to depict what happened this evening on this thread.
In the last post, I stopped in the middle of writing and decided to go into the bedroom because, once my head cleared up and started making sense of the argument we had, I realized that she made a very bold move which helped alleviate my disappointment (though it took about 7 minutes for me to relax and "see" it for the emotional bid that it was.
Anyway, we got into a little bit of a heated spat because I was telling her that her falling asleep was rude and that regardless of the fact that she was nice to me earlier, I was a little bit hurt. She got very defensive and started saying things like "don't be trying to pin this on me...you left me asleep on the couch". Guys, am I wrong for feeling a little bothered that she fell asleep immediately before a planned LM session?
Anyway, I told her that once she fell asleep, I was disappointed and I figured it would be best for me to calm myself down alone and she tried to turn that into "my choice to skip the LM session". I got the impression that she still wanted to have the LM session because she kept saying stuff like "so this is your choice?" I got to tell her that I really didn't have much desire because of what she did and told her my metaphor about talking on a cellphone during a date. I told her that she probably would have walked out too. She really showed me tonight how deep her avoidance of responsibility is and it was fine because she saw it for herself.
The only thing I blamed myself for was not paying attention to the signs that she was in the mood which only existed in her mind I guess. Note that she wasn't doing anything different tonight than any other non-LM night...ie. there were no signs.
Trust me folks, from the very beginning, she knew I had called her on her BS and she will have some material to work through (introspect on) in the next couple of days. I didn't think I needed to go any further. Anyway, I simply told her that I needed time to work through the situation and my disappointment regardless of the "rationality" of it.
Anyway, I turned away from her and said "good night" and let her leave my office and close the door in a somewhat cold way.
Ok Schnarchian's, pay close attention to what ensues because I can't make sense of either of our behaviors....
W comes back into the office and says, "I'm not going to let you go the rest of the night feeling like that". She comes up, straddles me and plants a big kiss on me. I of course, melt and laugh. My "pissy" mood is instantly gone. I tell her "thanks and that i love her". She gives me one more big kiss and twists one of my nipples in a playful way to non-verbally say to me "you are such a pain in the ass".
So I sat there, calmed myself down even further and wrote the last post. The reality of the situation set in and stopped writing and went into the bedroom where she was still very much awake. I got in bed and started kissing her and she was very into it. There was just enough lingering tension to make it enjoyable in a different way. She started talking about something (I can't remember) and I told her "I don't want to talk...I just want to take your close off and ML to you". Note that I've recently discovered that she likes a little "assertiveness". She pulled her top off and let me put my hand down yonder (which is rare that early in a session) and I proceeded to play with her for about 30 secs. She got very aroused and said..."come on, let's do it". No need to go into details except that about 20 minutes in, I accidently bumped her lip with my head which sort of knocked her out of the running for an O and made me a little less aroused. So we just laid there in the "spooning union" position for a while. It was pretty good. We cuddled until she fell asleep. I couldn't sleep so I got back up to take a bath and read for a while.
So needless to say, this was a weird night with lots of PM stuff going on. Welcome any feedback and opinions on what I did wrong. I'm sure I could have pushed her further into a crucible but it sort of felt like she had a "dose" of it...enough to make an impression on herself. She knew I didn't buy her BS but I also let her off the hook pretty easily. This might be my one big character flaw. Who knows? Good night.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
One sad thing about our situations is that sex often (mostly) follows a period of heavy moodiness and psychological coercion rather than a gradual build up from sexual vibes during the day to flirting over dinner, snuggling in front of the TV before the knowing look then off for an “early night”. My HD parents were masters of it and that is the environment I grew up in. Battles before bedtime destroy intimacy for me. SD
