Had an incident which was "weak". My W and I have the chance for a date night and she wants to see a movie. I asked if we could go to Starbucks afterwards and she said (unenthusiast) "sure". I then said "geez, you really give me the impression that you don't want to go on dates where you have to talk to me" and she gave me a "no..that's not true". (I bet by the end of PM, if she reads it for herself, will be more honest). Anyway, I displayed a pathetic act of fusion. I immediately went in for a hug for reassurance / validation that she wasn't mad by my comment. I actually walked away before even touching her which WAS differentiated compared to the past where I would have gotten all goofy about it.
A few minutes later I walked down and wanted to explain that move and how it was silly and I was able to use some PM terms. I then asked W what she thinks so far of PM. Her answer "it seems kind of obvious to me". I asked if she was seeing patterns in our M and she mentioned how she could see my "validation" issues. So after thinking about this for a few minutes, I realized one of few things are happening. 1. She's not doing any introspection. 2. She IS introspecting but doesn't want to admit any vulnerabilities. 3. A little bit of both. This book is going to be an excellent tool to differentiate on...how ironic.
So I did something that might be considered a blunder. I asked her if she's gotten to the punch-line about couples being "equally differentiated" and she said no. I clarified it again by saying that we each are matched with equally differentiated spouses. This was my effort to plant the seed that she's got some fusion issues too. I'm not certain if, in our monday night PM study, we should allow each other to comment on how we saw the other in the book. I think we have to simply discuss how we individually had new insights. Trying to analyze each other is dangerous and I'm not going to make that mistake again.
The good news about this exercise is that PM is a long book and it will provide many Monday nights of non-tv "connection". The last couple of weeks, I've been not too motivated to talk about things or try very hard. I've been feeling like I did last year. I even asked my W this morning if she thought I was still her "new husband" (a term she coined a while ago when I started being more selfless and involved in the family). She said "yes" and didn't think I was being selfish at all. So maybe it's becoming habit and instinct. This is a good thing. I need to get back to the "subtle pressure" of my own differentiation. Reading this together will really help.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
One more thing, I'm certain the "equally differentiated" topic will come up again in the near future and I'm ready for the game she will try. She's going to invite me to comment on how I think "she" is equally differentiated to me when I'm the one with the obvious validation and self-soothing issues. I'm not going to take the bait on this. I'm simply going to tell her that I truly *believe* it to be true and have some ideas but that it's not for me to discover.
I'm wondering if praising her on the things I think she does well is just as bad...like "you are brilliant at self-soothing" etc. Oddly, self-soothing is the most dangerous thing to be good at because a little anxiety is what puts you into a support group, C and bookstore. Discomfort is a great motivator.
Wow, this is going to be interesting. Have you folks noticed my lull in posting here? I'm about to get some new material.
Here we go!!!! I've got start reading again to catch up.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Dave, just be careful not to spend too much time worrying about what she's doing or not doing, and analyzing HER. You're spending a LOT of time "predicting" her, and also "leading" her in the book... let her experience it for herself.
Otherwise, that's a good and valid point and I appreciated you calling me on it.
My W made her first "differentiation joke" in the kitchen. I bought candy for a movie we are going to tonight...2 boxes of Junior Mints. I jokingly told my W that "I want to be just like you"...her response "differentiate!!!".
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
W was pretty cold throughout the day and I had to work hard at assuming it wasn't me...afterall, I've been a pretty decent guy this weekend. We went to movie and got home from movie D5 spending night out. Dialog....
W: (nicely) "I know you are hoping to have some 'bed' time...."
M: (getting worried about a gentle rejection) "Um, are you not feeling up for anything?"
W: "Oh, no...I didn't mean that exactly, I'm just worried that *you* might not want to do it because of 'things'." (implying period) "I was thinking I could give you a massage and take care of you etc."
M: "Ok...I'll shower off"
W: "You took a shower before the movie"
M: "Let's just say I get a little self-conscious too and wouldn't want to limit any options"
W" "Ok...I'll be up in a minute"
W (to my surprise) took care of all the details like getting a towel out for the massage, lit candles, took care of the dog. I got out of the shower and brought out the big can of kama sutra oils and creams and lit another candle. No details about what ensued but without actually ML but I could tell that she was really "feeling it" and actually enjoying the things she was doing to me. We were having one of the most intimate sessions and my W for the first time ever released a ILY in a style that was more vulnerable-passionate than ever before. Despite all the stuff we did, this was what I remember most fondly about the evening. I had to ask her....
M: "You know, you mentioned before that you were worried that *I* might not want to "be with" you right now. Doing it at this time of the month is not a problem for me at all and I would love to if you would like it too"
W: (completely anxious) "Um..oh..I really am not...um, I just am feeling so...I mean, it's not that it wouldn't feel ok, I mean I'm just really self consicous."
I completely comforted her and assured her that I wouldn't mind not doing it and that what we were currently doing was fine. The point I need to mention is that I watched her struggle with this for a minute and could tell that she was trying everything in her power to get over her anxiety. I thought that any second, she would say ok but I was very proud of her for simply trying so hard to overcome it.
It's interesting that we used to do it when we were dating but not now. I wonder if the part of differentiation where you expose your true self without fear of losing the love of someone is a dynamic in this. Like I've been scared to stand up for myself out of fear that she won't like me and she's scared to expose herself to that degree (ml on period) because of fear that I might think she's gross or something.
It made me realize that intimacy doesn't have to be about candles, closeness, good aromas, and movie style love making. Intimacy is simply "sharing yourself"...the good, the bad and the ugly (hopefully more good though). If we are going to get old together, we are going to eventually be dealing with issues like the situation my mom is going through with my dad where the cancer is making him do some pretty disgusting things and exposing her to smells and other things that aren't so nice. The ability to not be as "sterile" as we are would probably be a good way add a little strength and "armor" to the relationship. It will make for a good topic of discussion during our monday night self-counseling session.
BTW. This morning I made her breakfast in bed.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Wow, Dave, that's fantastic! Congrats to Mrs. Dave! What a cool development - I'm happy for you (and happy/hopeful for me!).
As for the "we did it while dating but not now" thing, it may have to do with the increasing-importance thing. The two of you are VASTLY more important to each other now than during the dating phase, esp. since DD came along, so it will probably take some further differentiation for both of you to feel comfortable ML during "that time of the month"... I have NO doubt you'll get there, tho...
It sounds like you are really making progress. I've kind of been developing a new rule of thumb for how well my fellow posters are progressing on this board. The more I am able to imagine their spouses as being real people and not just stereotypical LD spouses, the closer I think they must be getting to making a real "breakthrough" one way or the other.
It seems top me that at some point in your marriage, your wife must have felt the need to withdraw from you for some reason. Being more loving and increasing the level of intimacy overall seems to be working.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It seems top me that at some point in your marriage, your wife must have felt the need to withdraw from you for some reason. Being more loving and increasing the level of intimacy overall seems to be working.
I'll bring you up to speed.... There's a very specific reason for her withdrawal. When we got married, I was completely focused on work and combined with my "asberger-like" hyperfocus mentality, I would lose track of time and commitments. I'd frequently come home at midnight from my office. She felt abandoned and alone a lot of the time and I was too engrossed in myself and my work to notice. Even though she would profess her love to me and praise the life I was making for her, her sex drive was gone. Unfortunately she's not very expressive about her needs and instead of standing up for herself, she adapted (ie. compromised her own integrity). She learned to live independently and so did I (comprimised my own integrity). Our domestic enterprise was/is very efficient because we compliment(ed) each other perfectly in our home roles. I assumed that our relationship was normal and that sex drives simply decrease...after all, my parents never had sex .
The decrease after the marriage I attributed to the marriage. Then I took a little responsibility for it when I was working so much, but I didn't really care. Then I blamed the birth of our D5. Then I thought it had to do with resentment for me relocating the family for a new job. All along, my W and I never fought, argued, or dealt with conflict. Everything operated smoothly except the sex. I even tried to withhold for a year...the joke was on me because she didn't even notice. I complained a lot and W couldn't think of any reason why her desire was low. She even asked her gyno who asked "can you O?". W said "yes" Gyno: "Then you don't have a problem".
Then a year ago, my focus turned a little bit away from work...I was thinking that it was unhealthy. I started competitive cycling which required me to come home from work more often and I was simply spending a little more time together w/ W and D5 but not including them in any of my decisions etc. I was still ED a bit. Then in Feb '03, my company made us move to home offices which helped me avoid the traps I was mentioning before. Now I could have dinner every night and spend more time with the family. On Jan 1, my W told me that she's thinking that her new years resolution is to try to be a bit more physical. Wow. Theoretically, I could have just been a bump on the log, business-as-usual but this was an invitation to have a relationship again and I got very excited. V-day sex was great and so was a session a week after. I then started fusing really badly and overwhelmed her. Especially the pressure of analyzing her every move and looking for validation. Note that my other sources of validation dried up in Jan (being a project lead, being a winning racer, etc). So I was desperately pointing my hyperfocus spotlight on anything that would validate me. I pointed it at her and she felt like a deer caught in the headlights. For about month, I was totally freaking out because the sex got bad and things were going in reverse.
I called a C in March and in the first 5 minutes of our appointment, she told me to chill out my anxiety and compulsion, to stop taking responsibility for how my W feels and to read Schnarch. That's the only thing we got out of the sessions unfortunately. But it was exactly what fixed things...especially reading Schnarch. My W has been wonderful lately and has given some great sex and I'm not having to do anything different than I did a year ago except give her "consideration" when making plans and decisions. Oh, and to clean up after myself and not irritate her.
Oddly, the increase in sex has helped me be less talkative (aka irritating), calmer, more focused on her and the family. I'm finding myself thinking about getting treats for her when I'm at the drug store. In other words, she is becoming part of my daily mindset.
This week was a milestone. It's the first time in my life that I've balanced work, recreation and family in healthy doses where I didn't "exceed" in any particular area but was still happy with it. When I get laid off, I'm sure I'll get some good practice differentiating. . But maybe exceeding people's expectations is unnecessary and unhealthy, My boss has asked me to "not be so good to clients" because inevitably it will burn me when I can no longer sustain that level of service. Exceeding expectations is a double-edged sword. I'm rambling now. I think you can see my sitch a little better now.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
