Whew! Eight miles of speed walking and running on the Cape Fear River Trail. My feet hurt a bit. It’s been a while….
I’m in Fayetteville, NC for a few days this week and then home. I got new running shoes after work today and had to try them out. Old ones had soles coming off and I just would used them when mowing the lawn. D20 asked me the other day to start running with her and go for two miles that day. I said OK. I was tired but … I’m a work in progress on saying yes anyway. She was surprised, ”Dad! I thought you were going to say no and take a nap!”
My gov coworkers had to fly back tonight…something about no funding starting at midnight due to congress… (joke. we’ve all been through this exercise with before … doesn’t matter who is in charge this time around). Good thing we were 90% complete and had traveled on Sunday to get here.
Listening to music along the trail I started with various mellow playlists…the trail picturesque with covered bridges and arching green trees after all. I switched though. To keep up my speed and drive. Something a little harder. Not in a black mood. But in an understanding a black mood. The album
The Algorithm (Ultra Edition) - Filter
Which is the original album plus covers and remixes.
The first track hits hard to start. Yeah. Representing the anger and black moods.
All the Good
Rise and shine I’ma take back what's mine from you 'cause All the good in us Gets assassinated All the good in us Gets killed, no hesitation
But …. What is good in me is mine to control, not hers. I contemplate.
And then this cover surprised me the first time I played the album. A U2 cover? Did I hear that right?
A Sort of Homecoming
And you know it's time to go Through the sleet and driving snow Across the fields of mourning to a light that's in the distance. And you hunger for the time Time to heal, 'desire' time And your earth moves beneath your own dream landscape. ….. Across the fields of mourning to a light that's in the distance. Oh, don't sorrow, no don't weep For tonight at last I am coming home. I am coming home.
Home to. … myself. No wife goggles. No codependencies. No getting dragged by others emotions. For that is THEIR dream of the world. MY earth moves beneath MY own dream of the world.
-> Don’t take anything personally <- Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering. [one of The Four Agreements]
And on I run/speedwalk. Listening and thinking. Ah… yes. The remix versions at the end. Yeah. Many of us LBS start here.
Obliteration (Sean Beaven Remix)
Ashes circle the drain And now it's all that's left All that's left of me Sink my teeth in the pain Watching the world go numb And I'm just one step from obliteration
I think this version has a runnable remix bass beat. Huh. I think on the muted emotions I feel listening to these lyrics. At one point I could say yeah, that IS me. And now? I UNDERSTAND the thoughts and emotions expressed. And not just intellectually. I lived them. But they don’t drive me.
I contemplate some more. … ruminating over that time does still tighten the chest and I feel slightly nauseous. Why? Perhaps lingering expectations betrayed.
I expected honesty. It turned out over the years XW had been Dishonest by hiding her feelings and issues. I expected respect. It turned out over the years XW had built Disrespect over time. I expected loyalty. It turned out XW was in an affair with a married man, with toddlers, at D20’s work…Disloyal her and him.
Betrayal changes you - bttrfly
“Have no expectations” is a common saying here. That doesn’t mean just expectations of outcomes. Don’t expect all those things that previously HAD been earned over time. This is not the same person you married.
Looks like I’m hanging out in the the “Grok” (understanding) part of my theme. Grief? Not so much anymore. Gratitude? Not really yet…though I would not give back who I am now. Patience. Perhaps I will get there like Kind18 who stopped by the forums again.
Originally Posted by Kind18
Unwanted divorce was the worst time of my life. But like you, it delivered me to a much better place. It’s hard to be bitter years later when their decision to have an affair actually did you a massive favour!
Saying yes to spending time with those most important to you is a wonderful thing. Both for you and them. A most worthy self-project my friend.
Originally Posted by grok
“Have no expectations” is a common saying here. That doesn’t mean just expectations of outcomes. Don’t expect all those things that previously HAD been earned over time. This is not the same person you married.
Yep. And you aren’t the same anymore.
Originally Posted by grok
Looks like I’m hanging out in the the “Grok” (understanding) part of my theme. Grief? Not so much anymore. Gratitude? Not really yet…though I would not give back who I am now. Patience.
The LBS grows and would not give up their hard-earned lessons and wisdom, even if they could.
Be patient. I believe your gratitude is there. Starting. Shinning. You’re just working on understanding it. Perfectly normal. I mean, grateful?!? Really?!? After all this? Yes! You can be. You are! It’s ok to be so.
Be patient. Takes time. Just some encouragement that you are on a good path, IMHO.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Sitting at work today. Almost empty office because of the government budget conflict. A lot and nothing going on at the same time as I try to keep our projects going.
The desk phone rings at noon. ?? I'm not expecting any calls until the government budget is passed, and people come back to work.
I recognize the number. It's XW's cell phone. Calling me at work. When there are no outstanding issues, I know of. Trepidation.
G, neutrally, "Good Morning" XW, up then down tones, "Goooood Morning", she's unhappy and doesn't want to address whatever this is.
XW, "I want you to take the van. I don't want it. It is still in both our names. Just take it and go get D18 a car this weekend. It's being used against me. THEY are targeting it and it's not safe for D18 and S13. When I take her to work or class or take him to my shop. "
G, pausing, addressing just the D18 issue, "She and I have that planned and covered. We're working on getting a car."
XW, in a three-minute word salad, "People want $2000 for this and $2000 for that for the van, figuring I don't know what is really needed or not. I can't do this anymore. I'll just live at my shop and take a taxi if I need to go out. I just want the children to be safe. Keep them safe from people playing games with me. When they target the van it's not safe for the children. I know you know more about this than you say. "
G, pausing, not wanting to deal with any of this, wondering how you validate those swirling feelings, "Yes, of course the children will be kept safe. I'll think about it..."
XW, a little resignedly, " I know you'll have to think about it. Be careful about who you talk to about it though. Some will advise all kinds of things to get at me and might harm the children. They've already tried at D18's work. I've survived worse and I'll survive this. You can just give the van to D18. I'll be passenger princess until she is comfortable driving it." And then continued for more minutes circling the same topics.
G, pausing, unwilling to rush my thoughts, "I'll talk to D18. And think about it."
XW, sad tone of someone who knows they are interrupting, "OK. I know you'll think about it. I'll empty the van this weekend. I'll let you go. I know you're at work."
considerations
The van is hers by our settlement.
I just paid it off last month.
I let her know to put the title in her name only and she should now get her own independent auto insurance.
D18 won't want the van. It's too big for her driving comfort. She just got her license.
I don't actually know more than I let on. I just don't give any signs of what I do or don't know. As the popular meme goes, "Ain't Nobody got time for dat"
Getting D18 a small used car at reasonable cost but reliable, is a pain in the a$$. I don't like dealing with these people. It's more been just a matter of timing.
thoughts
I'm sad hearing XW's distress, her inability to address things like car maintenance when I knew her as a very intelligent woman, apparently no friends to help her though this, her thought to live out of a commercial leased shop with no transportation, and so on.
I know often the best love is one that lets people experience the consequences of their actions.
I’m not as detached as Kind18. Maybe I’ll get there.
I want to be and appear impeccable in my dealings with XW.
I tend not to believe her notions of persecution...though I've heard from some women that female group vengeance can get pretty out of hand.
I don't want to involve D18 at all, but she IS already from whatever XW is telling her.
side tale (or D18 is involved)
I was finishing up kitchen clean two nights ago when I hear D20 and D18 arguing upstairs. It sounds serious. I let them be. They must find their own equilibrium as sisters. Within household rules on behavior.
D20 comes downstairs, "Dad, please go check on D18. We were arguing, she fell apart and threw the full bird water dishes on the floor."
When I go upstairs, I see D18 sitting against the wall, curled into a ball, sobbing. "D18, why don't you go lay down on my bed for a bit. We'll talk later"
D18, whispering, "I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't move, I can't"
G, patting her on the head, "OK D18. When you can." and I go about evening upstairs routines. D18 disappears into her bedroom shortly after. … I’m almost done, ready to crash for the night, finally, when D18 pops in with her new MacBook and school assignment on screen. Her eyes are still teary.
D18, ”Dad, Dad, you have to read this. This criticism of my speech in class the other day. We’re required to give a critique in the forum of other speakers.”
I read it but don’t really see anything unusual. Just a short critique at a college peer level of writing and understanding. And through the lens of what the college peer was expecting the speech to be like, not necessarily what the instructions called for. I explained what I saw and why. That it was worth considering but not to be taken as truth or instruction. It was just how she came across to one person who has their own biases and interests.
D18, considers but adds, ”But Dad, she didn’t have to put it THAT way. It didn’t FEEL nice. Like I couldn’t do it right. SHE was all casual and I did mine like they pounded into us in the homeschool coop for formal speeches.”
Oh. OK. Now we are getting to this evening’s emotional upset. In the style of indirect emotional communication. I talked about how we can feel about criticism and how to navigate how it does feel by recognizing the other person’s reality is what drives their communication.
D18, ”Yeah Dad, but it’s hard. You know my best friend N and I have been arguing about (insert recent social/political topic). Like I asked you about the other day. Look what she messaged me today. She tried to trap me implying I don’t do my research, like I couldn’t do it right, and therefore she was always right.”
I look over the messages. I point out N’s logical inconsistencies and (likely unintentional) emotional manipulation. I reassure D18 that her thoughtful and intelligent replies were well done and appropriate.
D18, sadly, ”Well, when I was arguing with D20 tonight about (topic X), she was telling me how I was wrong. I felt like I couldn’t do it right. Ever. It was too much for me to take. I couldn’t do it anymore. I can’t deal with it. It’s too much. After Mom made me feel the same way on the way home from work today. I just wanted people to listen to me and understand how I feel. To see me. Not tell me how to solve it.
And there it was. I counted four times since noon she had interactions with in which she felt others thought she was wrong and incapable. The one before falling apart was with Mom.
- - I’m not looking for you to solve my problems, but validation of my feelings, that you SEE the inner me.
We talked until 12:30a. So tired.
How will D18 take Mom trying to push her only vehicle to her, whether trade in or direct?
g
Joris Delacroix, Montmartre - Let You Down ft. Findlay (Original Mix)
I let you down You knocked me out I'm going back To the hometown
I let you down I'm not your crown Please go back Back to your hometown
H:55 XW:50 D20, D18, S14 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24, D 9/16/24
Sorry to hear that D18 is having a rough time. I’ll share a few thoughts that come mind. Perhaps a nugget or two that if chewed upon may yield an insight of one’s own perspective, position, and place to grow. Not too tall an order for D18 methinks, as she’s got a pretty smart head on her shoulders.
Quote
After Mom made me feel the same way on the way home from work today.
No one can make you else feel a specific way. Certainly, they can trigger an emotional response, yet reinforcement and not letting a feeling extinguish comes from within.
Feelings are fleeting. Things lasting are being breathed life from you. Follow the sting and figure out why.
Quote
I just wanted people to listen to me and understand how I feel. To see me. Not tell me how to solve it.
I found this to be very true for young gals. Feelings vs facts. Focused on feelings and drama rather than solution or resolution.
“I just wanted people to listen to me” - You cannot control what other people do. Talking more, screaming, none of that will work either. Accept what you can control - you.
What can you do? Modify your goal, slightly. Don’t have people listen to you, instead offer for people to hear you.
“understand how I feel.” - Again, you cannot control their level of understanding or willingness to understand.
What can you do? Know thy self. Do you understand your feelings? Are those emotions stable? Long lasting? What are they built upon? If you don’t understand yourself, how can other’s be expected to.
To be clear, stable, long lasting, built upon - those are beliefs, values, convictions. Feelings are fleeting; convictions are those worthy tenets and principles to follow. And more importantly, to lead with.
‘To see me. Not tell me how to solve it.” - A genuine critic is gold. Absolutely gold! Someone took time and effort to share with you their perception of you. That’s gold! So many people do not speak true, or would even put forth such genuine effort.
What can you do? Hear them. Thank them for sharing their viewpoint. True, it may hurt, it may not be what you want to hear. However, that is where growth is. Where growth lives and breathes.
Of course, this is one data point. One peer critic. Accept it for what it is. And where there is opportunity to grow and get better, do so.
The best way to be heard and understood, is to live it. Know and live those convictions. Not feelings, dig deeper. Find your tenets. By the way, it’s a life long process and pursuit. So, you got time.
Lastly,
Quote
…I have been arguing about (insert recent social/political topic).
There are hot button topics - politics, religion, and such. To be blunt, there is little point or value in arguing those.
Most people, and I mean the vast majority of people are incapable of altering their beliefs. What I mean. Anything that runs contrary to their bias makes them question and feel bad, and therefore is tossed out as wrong. Regardless of evidence or not.
Likewise, that which runs with their bias reinforces their world view and is accepted, further entrenching them. Again, regardless of evidence or not.
It is a rare person who will consistently question and challenge themselves, their viewpoints, biases, etc. Such a person has the ability to hear new data. Explore it. Challenge its validity and when appropriate alters their world view accordingly. Be such a rarity.
Also, arguing begets arguing. Discussion is better. However, like I said regarding hot button topics, ask yourself - “Does this person have the emotional maturity, the rational processes, to hear? A willingness to grow?” If not, avoid it. Don’t waste your time and literal breath trying to discuss, it would likely end up an argument anyhow.
- - - -
As to the van. A few more thoughts…
Short version - Do not take the van. Stay away from it.
Originally Posted by grok
The van is hers by our settlement.
I just paid it off last month.
I let her know to put the title in her name only and she should now get her own independent auto insurance.
I’d send an email (or text if that’s the preferred method of written correspondence) telling her the van is her’s. It’s paid off. And she needs to get the title and insurance into her name. She’s free to sell it if she wishes; and you do not want it.
XW still has quite the story of persecution. Pretty wild. I think the 3 minute word salad is just the tip of the iceberg.
Quote
I'll just live at my shop and take a taxi if I need to go out.
Wasn’t XW picking up the adult/kids every now and then? Not sure a taxi would be the best solution here for her. However, not your circus, not your monkeys.
Originally Posted by grok
I know often the best love is one that lets people experience the consequences of their actions.
Yep.
Also, you do not want to manipulate her path. How her life unfolds, whatever direction things go, whatever consequences occur, is not a responsibility you want upon your head.
Find a reliable small car for D18. She’ll love it. It also won’t be a hand me down van. And XW won’t have any hooks into you or D18.
Hope that helps.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
G, You are doing great. What an odd conversation. It seems like your wife is very paranoid.
I am so glad you spent the night listening to D18. Feeling seen is important for all human kind per almost every therapist you speak to.
I will disagree slightly with DNJ in regards to people can't make us feel any way. That might be true as adults but not children which D18 was when your XW lost her way. Even now her brain is still developing. Unfortunately as children - we see our parents as the "truth". Their opinions and actions shape who we turn into. Our young brain isn't mature enough to go "hey.. my parent has no power over me here".
You know the way XW left was not ideal. How she is handling her life... is far from responsible. This has an effect on your kids all differently and can change throughout their life times. Stay the course friend - you are doing fine.
If XW gives D18 the car - so be it. You could always teach her how to trade it in and get something of her own. Turn it into an adulting opportunity for her to choose herself and go for a car that makes her happy.
M(f): 43 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Thanks DnJ, Valeska19, and here I had thoughts and a post partially formed from your helpful words…. And then things happened and I wrote this slice of life chapter.
Well, an eventful few days I think… I learned more of what is going inside D20 and D18. S13 just hears, is a moody teen boy with who "I don't feed good Dad." and perhaps XW's parents. Later that same day after I posted …
Context - the van in question is a 2022 Honda Odyssey…quite reliable and valuable and new.
Fri eve...right after the previous post
D20, "Dad, what is this about Mom dropping off her van? I don’t understand."
Thinking Oh, now D20 is involved too. XW must have messaged her.
G, considering what to say and not say, "Well……. Your mother called me yesterday at work and said she wanted me to take the van. Something about it wasn’t working and it wasn’t safe. To maybe give it to D18.
D20, surprised, "it’s still in your name?"
G, "Yes, It has been in both our names. I just paid it off. She was to put it in her name now."
D20, frowny faced, "You’re not going to take it are you?"
G, "No D20. I don’t plan on taking it."
D20, "Good. ‘Cause that is just not how this works. That’s not how any of this works. She needs to take care of it. Sell it or whatever. D18 won’t want it."
Separately, later that night, I ended up in a similar conversation with D18. I don’t think she knew about my earlier conversation with D20. ......from the middle somewhere...
G, "I didn’t want to involve you at all with this, but if she drops it off, we have to figure out a way to get you to class and work."
D18, "Dad, I don’t wan’t the van. But I can drive it if I have to. If mom drops it off and isn’t taking me to class or work. I have driven it the places I have to go and I can do it."
G, "OK. We’ll still get you a car like we planned. 50/50 on the price. I don’t want you to be tied or obligated to what ever she decides to do. I don't try and control or figure out what your mom is doing"
D18, "I know Dad. Just, I can drive it if I have to for now. ... Grandma wishes she would get mental help. She thinks it might be hereditary because her grandma had problems."
OH
That came out of nowhere. I knew some bare bones of that story but... XW's mother, D18's grandmother is/was talking to D18 like this?
I like the openess to be able to talk like that...but ... I'm not sure that is D18's to bear. The dynamic this creates between D18, XMiL, and XW. It doesn't feel quite right.
Saturday - Time for D18 to remove transportation dependence
I had been surveying the used car market for some weeks since our CA trip to figure out something appropriate. College kid. Reliable. Cheap. Safe. D18’s preferences. I picked out some cars to test drive One at a dealer and some at small car lots.
2014 MAZDA CX-5 w/150k miles: was an outlier at a dealer. Surprisingly low cost. “As-Is” … dealer decided to try and flip a trade in to see if they could get a bite before sending it to wholesale. D18 liked how it drove. …. it had a “crunchy” noise in the front wheels, corrosion on internal metal bits and around the spare tire as if it had been water damaged…
2016 Honda Accord EX-L w/150k miles: normal advertised cost. Luxurious for the model. Temp control display did’t come on until car was turned off and on again. LOL. Drove very nice and smooth. D18 hated how Honda accelerator pedals act. Could tolerate a low slung sedan.
2014 Toyota Corolla w/150k miles. Battery was dead. Outside plastic bits had cracks and one small piece fell off. Drove like a Toyota Corolla. D18 thought the place and car were sketchy. Not sure she like sedans but could do it if needed.
All day we had discussions about trade offs: with longevity of some brands, long term cost per year that could be expected, high milage/low up front cost vs low milage/high up front cost, the cost of features, gas and insurance costs, repair money set asides, how each car make had a “feel” to it, etc…. She has now driven seven different vehicles in all and narrowed it down to liking an older Mazda CX-5 as her preference...from private sellers locally one at 140k miles asking $9200 and one at 165k miles asking $6900. D18s considered choice, we go try the lower price one. We send a message.
D20 and friend get all dressed up go to a 21 Pilots concert.
Sunday - Car found!
1am D20 returns with friend to sleep in. LOL
Get S13 D18 up breakfast church and team duties lunch confirm meet location time and head out for test drive with D18. Private seller seems honest, has put $2k in maintenance into SUV over the last two years. ”I figured I’d sell it to a single mom or college student and wanted them to be safe.”
The good parts of humanity.
I verbally offer, seller accepts. I go back and work the private seller process through AutoTrader. They escrow the money and act as a virtual dealer for paperwork. Maybe pick up tomorrow.
Time for weekly grocery shopping and cooking with D20. We talk along the way. She wants to know some things. And say things.
- D18 needs to be not dependent on mom, I’m so glad you found a car with her - Can you get a grill now? I know you said after finished paying mom. I’ll buy herbs and steaks….please… - How much do you pay her? How much do you make? - Of course mom’s van broke, she doesn’t maintain it or take care of it. She’s got two giant cracks in the windshield now. - She might not have money for it. She spent it all. - And ……..more
G, ”I know D20. Your sister is ready to make that step now. Yes, we can get a grill after next month. This is also why I haven’t yet purchased the motorcycle I was eyeing either. I pay your mother $xxxx a month for 18 months total. I make $xxxxxx a year and that is 1/4 of my income. I chose to agree to pay that until D18 was independent…based on a worksheet of projected expenses. I chose, not your mother, because I needed S13 to have schooling and D18 work, school, and gym transportation at least until now. I don’t know what your mother has done with the van. The insurance on it covers windshield cracks.”. …. and more
I didn’t address what XW does with money. I stayed away from anything that might put down or be derogatory. I claimed MY choices for MY reasons. I tried to have transparency on what I choose and why within the scope of the resources I have.
Monday - D18 dances a jig
As a federal holiday, I have the day off. So. Time to get to work. LOL
I work the forms to add D18 as a driver to my insurance policy. Then the forms to add the car. Then I get a notification the money escrow transfer completed and arranged a noontime pickup with the seller. …. D18 is happy nervous driving home by herself! Wooo!
Then arrange medical appointments for both of us. Paperwork. Talk to car insurance company to clear up details and ensure young driver discounts we can get are achieved.
She drives herself to work and back in the afternoon. Oooos and Ahhhhs from bosses and coworkers. Heh. To be 18.
I take S13 to his scout like troop in the evening. Oof, I need t prep for a multi-troop campout next weekend!
Time to crash out tonight. I’m tired. Has this only been three and a half days since XW’s noontime call? Looking back it seems like that’s a LOT of stuff… in multiple dimensions!
g
XW did not show up at the curb tonight.
Joris Delacroix - Take Your Time or alt version Joris Delacroix & Nancy - Take Your Time (Live Version)
Take your time To take a break, do not go too fast Breath in, do it but with your own rhythm Don't tell me you don't have the time You'll go faster than you think ..... Why don't you take your time? Once listen Ocean waves. Bird's songs Heart feels. Listen (listen, listen, listen, listen) ..... Let's go take your time Let's go take your time
H:55 XW:50 D20, D18, S14 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24, D 9/16/24
Threads which are old and new at the same time... Life goes on
Forgiveness?
Originally Posted by kiro
So out of the blue, my ex sends me a message apologizing for what she did and asking for my forgiveness. 8 years later! I always wondered if that days was going to happen…
Originally Posted by DnJ
How interesting. An out of the blue apology and asking for forgiveness. I bet her apologizing feels kind of good. Maybe even has some closure to it.
I suspect XW has some manner of pressure in her life which is prompting her to sort out her stuff. To tie up loose ends.
Have you forgiven her?
Originally Posted by kiro
To answer your question, I don’t know if I forgave her. I don’t even know what that word means. To be honest, I don’t think about it or about her anymore. I don’t hold any grudge or any bitterness inside me. So maybe that means I forgave her.
Temp checking?
Originally Posted by Kind18
Hard to know what her motivations were for apologising. Entirely possible that things with OM are a bit rocky at the moment. That’s what my ex-wife used to do when we were married - as soon as things between us got a bit rocky, she’d start reaching out to her ex partners apologising for what she’d done. I guess she was monkey branching and trying to test waters.
Originally Posted by kiro
My wife said the same thing about my ex when she sent me her aplogy. She said that she was testing the waters. Who knows and who cares?
How will I view this from a distance?
Originally Posted by kiro
The way I see it is that we had a good happy marriage and she ruined it. We could have grown old together and lived happily as a family.
Originally Posted by Kind18
Unwanted divorce was the worst time of my life. But like you, it delivered me to a much better place. It’s hard to be bitter years later when their decision to have an affair actually did you a massive favour!
Originally Posted by kiro
You are right about your last sentence. In a way, she did me a favour because I found my current wife. But I usually don’t like to think that way. I was also happy in my first marriage before she lost her mind.
And sometimes just older threads... pay no mind to the demons; they fill you w/fear
The MLC aspects woven through many experiences here. Certainly one aspect of my XW's behavior. In line with this description of being the safe one, my XW once almost whispered to me, "G, you're the only one I can tell and will listen. Everyone else will just condemn and cut me off."
Originally Posted by snodderly
When they are saying they want a divorce, cut ties, etc., they are already 2 or more years ahead of us. As he moves along the tunnel, he will eventually slow down to a crawl, but at the beginning many of them appear very quick and concise about what they want and do.
Please try to keep in mind that he's lashing out at the world and you are the safest person for him to do this too. They always say you hurt the one you love and believe me, it's true when it comes to dealing w/mlc. Try to picture him as a lion in a very small cage trying to break free. That is what your h is doing. You, the marriage and family are symbols of responsibility. He can't deal w/that right now. He has to break free, run and try to recapture his youth in order to go back to a time he was emotionally stunted. He has to grow up from that point on. I know it's difficult to accept that he's just a very angry person right now, but try to step away from his antics as much as you can.
Mlcers "expect" us to know that they are unhappy for many years...like the crystal ball is suddenly going to appear and say "your spouse/companion is unhappy...do something". They were so emotionally stunted as children that they don't know how to have a heart to heart discussion because they are afraid of how we'll react, but they would rather go out there and screw everything up and destroy all of the good things that they had.
The frustration of it all!!! Decades of planning, careful work, and ... yeah... I had XW and I set up to be able to retire in our early 60s with a middle-class income for life. Now it will be another ten years to get back to where I was financially at BD.
Originally Posted by Whiterose
why? why? why? we were so close to freedom all the hard work and the kids and everything and we were going to be able to enjoy our lives he went and screwed it all up
I took S13, D18, D20 to a CAIN concert last weekend featuring Jon Reddick / Caleb & John. connects to that thread title pay no mind to the demons; they fill you w/fear
No Fear - Jon Reddick
Yea, though I walk through the valley I will have ... No fear (not over my life, not over my life, not over my life) No fear (not over my life, not over my life, not over my life) ... Not over my family Not over my future Not over my life God's over my life Not over my battles Not over my struggles Not over my life God's over my life (No fear)
H:55 XW:50 D20, D18, S14 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24, D 9/16/24
Hi G. Hope you're doing well. If I'm interpreting your update, that I read a couple times, it sounds like you're processing. Not sure where 'frustration' sits on the non-linear healing path. Your reasons resonate.
Originally Posted by Grok
The frustration of it all!!! Decades of planning, careful work, and ... yeah... I had XW and I set up to be able to retire in our early 60s with a middle-class income for life. Now it will be another ten years to get back to where I was financially at BD.
Better not bitter. It's taken me a bit of time to not be bitter. Sometimes, I'm bitter and not better.
Could you be frustrated with trying to make sense of what doesn't make any sense? Trying to figure out what's next? Feeling helpless through the betrayal? Something else? Dig into this one.
On my side, I even have some residual anger. While I know we both worked hard through the years to be 'set for life' at a rather early retirement age, H (exW) blew it up. Still, I don't hate him (not suggesting you do).
I'm adding years to my career. Reading your update, 10 years is likely spot on. I don't fear adding years. Simply put, I'm disappointed.
Forgiveness may come once you no longer replay the events in your head with the same level of anger/bitterness. You'll completely accept what she's done. Radical acceptance. This is how I know that I haven't fully forgiven. You maintain good boundaries and only share what's needed with your kiddos. This is commendable. From my seat, you're not numb. HER story isn't defining you.
Sounds like you're getting hints of apologies. She is dropping hints through her swirly talks. What's her motive? Who knows - those cheeseless tunnels reappear. Vets say that we'll know a full apology when it comes. I'm not holding my breath. lol
Originally Posted by G
my XW once almost whispered to me, "G, you're the only one I can tell and will listen. Everyone else will just condemn and cut me off."
I see your example to resemble the outreach from my H to our kids over this summer. There have been 2 - both moments of grief (heavy emotion) in his path. MLCer will turn to the family who once provided stability. Keep hold of those boundaries. Don't rescue. She's feeling those consequences.
Hi MamaG! I had this mostly written up when I saw you visited. I think you'll understand, though your H does not appear often, or in what is now YOUR home. For me, for my kids, XW does have a key and does show up in the home several days a week while I'm at work. I believe it good for S13. For Ds? Hit and miss.
Threads old and new: Because it is a mind F
Originally Posted by Ginger1
I think it is good me and the ex have a kind relationship. Best for everyone. Sometimes it does cross boundaries that I am uncomfortable with. Like yesterday he and the wife made a surprise visit to my house with a dozen of Krispy Kreme donuts. I imagine they were more for D12, but I invited them to in to sit and the such and thanked them, Sometimes the nice gestures take a toll on me mentally. Nice stuff shouldn't, but it does at times. It's like a mind F. Currently D12 is in her room doing a zoom with her dad and his wife and her family. I told her she had to go in her room for this. I just don't want everyone "in" my house. I need to set some kind of boundaries for myself.
Originally Posted by kml
You re a better woman than I . ((((((Hug)))))
Originally Posted by Kas99
My kids are older and so I'm 100% NC with H ... As far as the OW goes I hope they stay together and are miserable. If they stay together then he will leave me alone.
Originally Posted by JujuB
It feels like a mind F. Because it is a mind F. It's like a rapist bringing flowers to your home. Those nice gestures would take a toll on anyone because they normalize and trivialize their bad behaviors. They make you think that she's not a bad person for sleeping with a pregnant woman's husband - because look - she brings donuts!
I feel my own version, though perhaps not nearly so dramatic as Ginger1's story.
Unlike Ginger1, I have not and do not have contact with the OM. I have no idea if he is in or out of XW's life. I had my own boundary I never ended up needing to express: OM is not welcome in my home or at my events or on my property. ... not to punish XW, but because I respect myself. A man who would do the things XW said he did ... is not one I would have in my life. Reposting, but Starsky309 said it well:
Originally Posted by Starsky309
Men and women that would knowingly get involved with a married woman or man, and prey upon their emotional weaknesses, ARE predators!! In every sense of the word. mad
I detest them. Do not "make friends" with them, do not expect them to deal honorably with you (for they are, by definition, DIShonorable) and do NOT take what they tell you as TRUTH!
XW's intermittent nice gesture behaviors on the other hand ... do " take a toll on anyone because they normalize and trivialize their bad behaviors." What's really going on inside XW that has driven these behaviors? I have no idea. I don't try and figure it out. I am a little glad when there is a good behavior and a little sad when there is a bad behavior. I don't expect either and I am not dragged emotionally.
I sometimes feel a little irritated and resentful. Those feelings follow the same path as JujuB's quote above. They are on me though... from my own lingering expectations... the gulf between "what should be" and "what is." I just let them sit for a bit and then pass.
then they are gone
I remain
g
Hasn't Hit Me Yet - Blue Rodeo
Hey, hey, I guess it hasn't hit me yet I fell through this crack and I kind of lost my head
I stand transfixed before this streetlight Watching the snow fall on this cold December night
Never thought this could happen But somehow the feeling is gone
You got sick of the patterns And I got lost in this song
H:55 XW:50 D20, D18, S14 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24, D 9/16/24
compassion for the MLC - or - would you like feeling like this?
Originally Posted by beatrice
What it felt like to them is different, and while we never know what is in another person's head, from what I have heard from therapists and also those who have come through it, is that they felt trapped, constrained, a failure, that their life was over without them having lived it, and so on. When they disengaged they were fleeing for their life, or that is how it felt.
Originally Posted by Wonka
Ding! Ding! Ding!
Yup, Bea. You've captured the essence of the MLCer mind quite well. That was me right there.
Haha - 10 of 18! But who's counting? You're seeing the light. Good for you!
G messaging XW with payment, "As agreed. 18 of 18"
Alimony is complete. She is on her own.
Three retirement related financial accounts and one joint owned rental house remain to be addressed. XW has done ZERO effort to work on the settlement terms. An irritant of sorts for the extra work on me. Though one I shrug off ... because ... I can get it done correctly myself.
Time to pay down the last two years debt and get started on those other projects!
day by day
Originally Posted by Valeska19
G, You are doing great.
Originally Posted by MamaG
You're doing well, G. One day at a time.
It's time for a new thread. Thanks Valeska19, MamaG, I feel the flow and know what to name it now. Each title represents parts of the process.
Day By Day - Kings Kaleidoscope (part of a new collection of hymns, with the goal of giving them a fresh, innovative interpretation)
What I once desired for Is not what I desire more Heart of stone turned into flesh Love, joy, peace[/b] taking over the mess It's all I'm wanting day by day (Day by day by day by day by day by day)
I am not who I was, now I am who I am A sinner saved, a stumbling saint Still I'm never alone, He's alive in my bones The ghost of God sanctifies Day by day by day, day by day by day Day by day by day
H:55 XW:50 D20, D18, S14 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24, D 9/16/24
