Hey y'all, lurking for a few months, first time poster. š
Soooo.... xh/x and I have been dancing for 27 years. I apologize for the length of the R timeline, but because it's a complicated situation, I feel it's necessary in order to get the advice and 2x4s I need. Plus it might give some insight to how a WAW, and a standing LBS think....
R Timeline
Sept 1998 - Met in college Me 18, him 20: he was suddenly in my friend group and paying a little more attention to me than anyone else, and he caught my eye. I pursued.
April 1999 - Engaged, he moved with me across the country.
2001 - Married (I never really had a burning desire to be married... huge believer in commitment, just not the institution)
2002 - Moved back to be near family when we start ours.
2005 - First son (S1) born, complicated birth followed by (presumably) minor post-partum depression. Working. Starting to feel H was more attentive to work and S... had flirty EA with his friend, boosted my ego but no actual attachment. H was keen on having kids close together, I was not ready but agreed to it (yes, am a major people pleaser!)
Sept 2006 - Miscarriage 1
May 2007 - Miscarriage 2
Nov 2007 - S2 born, HELLP pregnancy. Basically your liver starts shutting down, and you keep going until the absolute last minute.
2008? - Thought I'd be a hero and be a stay at home mom. PPD, big time!
2009- Started gambling when kids were gone for the weekend, as H was working 80+ hour work-weeks: my justification was hoping to win big so that we could afford for him to be home. Obviously, made the situation a million times worse, and H was rarely affectionate, and withdrew.
2009 - Started business he had dreamed about, same reasoning as gambling, but way more control with outcome. We had seen a therapist, and learned about each other's love languages... what a perfect way to mesh our interests. Playground for H, but I ended up running the show. ADHD super focus, so was only partly aware our financial situation wasn't great. H supplied finances, but we never sat down and discussed the matter. Once again, H working all the time, and barely paid attention to me.
2009- New employee, flirty but attraction. As promised, told H was starting to feel something for this guy. He sat by for months as I would cry and say the feelings were getting stronger. Only EA, no PA. Not fighting for me, and my last cry for something from him was our anniversary... we went out for dinner, but he insisted the kids come with us.
End of 2009 - Won award for business, left home next day. Moved in with OM, H finally fought for me. Torn, because still loved H with all my heart, but wouldn't be fair to live with him while carrying on with OM.
2010 - D: Gave him house, van, primary custody of kids (initially he wanted sole, and I would have given him that and the universe out of sheer guilt and shame for what I'd done... OM knocked some sense into me and explained the difference between sole and primary, thankfully!)
2010 - Jan 2017: Excitement of new R wore off quick... quick engagement & agreeing to try for kids because his Dad was dying and would love to see it.... I woke up one day in the next few months, gave my head a good shake, and called off everything...WTF, I was repeating the same pattern that made me someone I didn't recognize the first time! Started slowly detaching from what I at that point had learned was a R with a severe alcoholic. Main reason for not GTFOT sooner... my Dad had said "You've made your bed, now lay in it" Gee, I wonder what one of my childhood traumas were?!?
2009 -end of 2016 - XH stuck around business and watched it all go down... he'd rather stay connected to me as a friend than lose me. Learned later from a mutual friend that in our time apart he went through a very dark time. Was a block away from kids, so went to house every morning to see them, and called every night to say goodnight (in fact, our goodnight ritual STILL goes on to this day, even with them both living under my roof!)
XH and I start sleeping together when I finally had the guts to completely break from OM (he was emotionally abusive, blackmailing me, and manipulative... there was nothing R between us for years at this point)...
2016 - 2024: XH/X and I continue sex, while we live our enmeshed lives... I had my own apartment down the street from the house, and we were together as a family most of that time. XH/H was exactly what I wanted in our marriage, but I was too ashamed to ask if we could try again... and he kept mentioning women he wanted to ask out, and ask my advice, which out of shame I would give. He always mentioned, but never acted. To me, we were together, just in a weird way... everything was there, and better than before, but we were both not all in for our individual reasons (guilt for me, depression for him... he admitted that to me only recently)
2017ish - XH/X moves with kids out to family farm 40 min drive away. I would go there all the time, kids would be with me on weekends.
2019 - His mom and my Dad pass away within months of each other.
2022 - My mom, whom XH/X was much closer to, passes away a month after I move to a place a 16 hour drive away. We see each other every couple of months for school vacations, or me visiting the farm.
2023 - I finally break a nasty habit of mine after watching The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel with him and just spill my guts... I told him how I really felt about him. He was inspired by the show too, but for a different reason (see June 2025), as I found out the next year. Had quit my job at the start of the year after nervous breakdown, so he was helping me out financially... you can see the pattern emerging here... financial anxiety trigger...
Around this time, he found out he had the genetic defect that caused all of his mother and her siblings deaths (Trauma 1 or T1)... looking back, probably when MLC started. We were now closer than we had been since the boys were born... but could see hesitation in calling it a relationship.
Here comes the boom... June & Aug 2024 - Both times we had sex, it was incredibly painful, but I didn't want to say no as it was our only chance to have sex and I didn't want to deprive him. June's attempt was lackluster, and ended with him FIRMLY declaring we weren't together... he laid there as I cried, because I hadn't said anything of the sort in awhile and didn't know where that had come from. Aug was scary... pain was worse, and it was like he was possessed and he was more (respectfully) aggressive and tried things he'd never tried before... and I could see he was frustrated that I wasn't into it... pain and being freaked out about the change in him were certainly a factor. Very cold and distant this time when he told me we were not together... I was full out bawling my eyes out this time... no concern from him again.
S1 moved in with me permanently at this time.
Oct 2024 - XH/X - "Ya, I'm not attracted to you anymore".
Nov 2024 - March 2025 - End up in hospital in Nov because fibroid the size of a grapefruit had started detaching, as well as an internal yeast infection... hence the pain while having sex. As all LBS reason at first, start with GAL and maybe MLCer will want me again. At Xmas we sat on the couch together, stayed up watching movie. No movement towards or away from each other, although I was REALLY hoping so! Afraid I would just jump him, soooo....
March 2025 - A mutual friend of ours (closer to me than XH/X) was thinking about moving out my way, so I suggested he come up with XH/X and visit. Spent a lot of time together, with and without kids...XH/X declined going on outings. Friend and I had started out our friendship just after OM had passed, way way back.... was attracted to him at first, but no interest in anything on his part. We had EA for a few years back then, nothing serious, as my heart was starting to beat again in earnest for XH/X, and the same for me on his side.... however, a friend pointed out that she thought there might of been something between the friend and I at some point,. If she saw that, XH/X would have too. He was moody and outright angrily replied "Ex-husband!" when someone thought he was my husband.
I ended up staying at the farm for a few weeks immediately after that trip to attend my god-daughter's wedding, and I was miserable the whole time because I knew something was rotten in the state of Denmark. He would not hug me. He was driving me to my hotel, and I made a comment that he should play hooky from work and have some fun. He replied "Oh, I do, and I have fun!"... He was an emotional mess when I asked who she was. Turns out he had been having a PA with a 27 year old co-worker... he's 47 at this point. I am under the impression he had been having an EA for a few years with her, due to a quick mention about two girls at his work who were constantly hitting on him....one who hit on everybody, and one who was a bit young for him (back then). I get upset because the only expectation we ever had with each other was to talk if we had feelings for someone else. I get a man has needs, but the age difference and his exclamation "You were never supposed to know about it, because I didn't want to hurt you" ... punch in the gut. Meanwhile, since Xmas he had been veering back to being attentive and closer to pre-MLC him... boy did that revelation feel like a thousand cuts!
April - June 2025 - Lots of angry phone calls both ways, lots of begging and pleading, lots of all the DBing things you are NOT supposed to do... in May I looked into MLC, and he checked all the boxes. He just wants me to be his friend... I gave it a few days and replied that the friendship he wants with me is what I wanted in our marriage, and that is what true lasting love turns into after the big rush of passion evens itself out...and that until he can see that, we can't be friends Reading these forums gave me SO much insight into what was going on in his head... and fantastic tips on how to deal with it. I stand (for now) because during that first GAL period I realized I could live without him, I just didn't want to. He claimed he was going to end it with her (it was super casual, and he was not interested in anything more with her because he had already had the great love of his life, and apparently OW wanted different things).
June 2025 - At farm for S2's high school grad... S2 moving in with me as well. Was worried because his mother had a major nervous breakdown when he (the youngest AND a momma's boy) moved out, so concerned about his mental state with youngest leaving his nest. Things had been going amazingly well between us the last few months, and XH/X smiling and moving towards making reconnections with friends, the boys, and old interests. On the long drive back to my house, the chemistry, intimacy, and connection that make a marriage great were all there! We sang together, had deep conversations, in general you could have lit an entire country with the energy we created... it was as if the boys weren't in the car with us. I hadn't seen him this happy and energized in a very long time! He admitted to me that he thought he was depressed, and dthat his head felt like a vacuum.. did I find talking to a therapist helpful? His stay was full of flirting, a family outing, doing chores around the house (which he hadn't done in a long time!)... topped it off with going down to the marina to watch the sunset with S1, I stayed down at the beach, and I suspect he had taken candid pictures of me, and even more certain when he took pictures of me being goofy. We stayed up late looking at houses, and watching a TV show we had watched together way back when S1 was born.
He changed his plans and left early the next day. He smiled when I glared at him for not giving me a hug, got out of the car and allowed for a longer, tighter hug than he had in the last year... called me several times on the drive home, very sentimental.
July 2025 - With son out, and news that another uncle had passed from the genetic heart valve defect... he's deep in depression. He doesn't remember anything about his time here in June and insists that I'm gaslighting him. He even called the boys to tell them to watch out for me because he's seriously worried about my mental health. Called back after that heated call, where I started taking deep breaths before responding... he still claimed I was gaslighting him, but if he were to give me the benefit of the doubt, what would I suggest he do? I strongly suggested he get help for his depression. He then said that I should do the same, because he was worried about me. I told him I was. Found out he is still occasionally seeing OW, and insists that I give up on telling him anything about how much I love him and am here to support him if seeks help. He told me he's been depressed most his life (first time he's ever said that!), and that he knows how to get through this. Just leave him alone and let him live his life... he wants to live what he's got left sowing his wild oats and working... nothing about us, his family, in that plan!
Aug 2025 - Started the month off by deciding it was time to detach... halfway through the month and I've only called him once... wanted to know if he had fallen in love with and or cheated on me when we were married. No hesitation, no emotion...no, he hadn't. Started the conversation off with referring to an earlier conversation we had where he said he didn't owe me anything... he didn't remember saying that... but his memory where emotional conversations are concerned has been noticeable since 2023, and downright concerning as time goes by.
Since I stopped calling, he's been calling me every few days... twice in a shorter period because I missed the first call, and when I answered the second time, it was about a joke he didn't have anyone else to share it with. It sounded like he choked up at the end of the call right before he quickly said bye and hung up before I could say anything. Being the big softy that I am, I then foolishly sent him a text resinstating my support, and to reach out whenever. He immediately called after reading it to see if I was OK. It occurred to me then that maybe he wasn't gaslighting when emotions weren't involved, but using his concern for me as a coping tool. He called me yesterday to talk about things he could clearly look up himself. He's looking for any reason to call, but even though it's killing me, I'm sticking with detachment. It's been tough, but getting out from under his cloud made me realize how much of his depression I've been sponging for years!
We are even still so bonded, that (and not the first time in the last while) someone had made a joke about reading someone's mind and I was halfway through saying I get that with XH/X... and guess who called at that moment!
See, I told you it was complicated... š
So... now some questions...
Can someone really forget that a chunk of two days happened?
That reconnection before June felt an awful lot like a proper reconnection attempt, and not a touch & go.... was it possibly, but then thrown in the trash by the two trauma triggers?
My biggest concern... because I triggered the 180 when (from my point of view... who the heck knows what was going on in his head!) I rejected him when I couldn't perform... a call back to a major trauma in his life, is detaching by going dark on my side a good idea? This is a certain case where I am in fact responsible for one of his trauma triggers.... unable to find anyone on the forums in similar situation, and would appreciate any feedback!
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
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Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I am still reading and absorbing your situation. However, some quick answers/opinions to your questions.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
Can someone really forget that a chunk of two days happened?
Yes. Absolutely. Depression can affect oneās mind is some wild ways. Forgetting events. Or denying events, which is more likely. Part of grief. In time, denial gives way and events are ārememberedā. Then those memories, events, etc can be processed.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
That reconnection before June felt an awful lot like a proper reconnection attempt, and not a touch & go.... was it possibly, but then thrown in the trash by the two trauma triggers?
XH is pretty unstable at the moment. Was the time in June an actual attempt at reconciliation? Perhaps. However, if it was it was likely throwing off course due to uncleās death. The mix up with your friend obviously pushed XH away as well.
Iād not say itās thrown in the trash. XH has slide back. And you have an opportunity to sort out your side of the street. Being a lighthouse for example.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
My biggest concern... because I triggered the 180 when (from my point of view... who the heck knows what was going on in his head!) I rejected him when I couldn't perform... a call back to a major trauma in his life, is detaching by going dark on my side a good idea?
You acknowledge you donāt know what going on in XHās head. Heck, even he doesnāt know. So, watch out for mind reading on your part. Hence, the strikethrough.
H has lots of emotions to burn/work his way through. Letting go and giving him to God, the universe, a higher power, is a good thing. Go dim (not dark). Be kind and cordial. Yet, focus on you. GAL.
Do your inner work. And be a lighthouse. (Read the lighthouse story in the welcoming thread if you donāt get the reference.) You can light the way, illuminate the rocks, but XH steers his ship.
Youāve got the gift of time. Use it wisely.
I look forward to conversing with you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Un, I saw that you requested my input. While most of my pre-BD confidence has returned, I'm still not sure about giving direction in MLC situations. I can tell you what I hear from your narrative if you find that helpful.
First, I can hear your pain and interest in restoring your marriage. That I (all on this site) can relate to. You seem to have a strong connection over many years with H. This is wonderful. Seems like many years of your R has been your crisis, the divorce, and now your H's crisis. That's a lot of years in turmoil. Still, there must have been many good moments/years, as you are here.
I enjoyed my H for 30+ years and have memories no one can take from me. Regardless of where our R ends up, my memories are mine. I say the same to you. You have many memories that will always remain yours regardless of where your R ends up.
My immediate second thought brings a series of questions that you don't need to respond to here. If you are comfortable sharing, it may help us help you.
If I read your update correctly, you went through a midlife storm. That gives you insight, strength and compassion that many people may not have. Ask yourself these questions and see what you can put together. Perhaps you have more answers than I do....as my MLC H is still not home nor is he knocking the door down.
When you reflect on your MLC (if I can call it that), What did it feel like? What was your narrative? What did you 'get' from the OM? What did he provide? Why did you feel that you could/should have a different relationship from your M?
Then, I ask you what you learned through your MLC? The years before your H's MLC were not wasted years. What have the years refined? What have you learned about yourself? What remains a mystery?
H needs space and time. That offers you space and time. Use it wisely. Self-reflection may give you more answers than anyone/anything. While you can't fix H or anyone else, you can be steady, kind and honest while he does the work of facing himself. In that time, you've been through transformation that H allowed for. You know the discomfort and the growth that it brought forward in you.
Should you go dark? meh. Dim, yes. Wait for his outreach. Then wait to respond. Think through what your response is, if one is needed.
I may not like that H and I don't talk EVER since I've been no contact for the better part of 14 months. Business transactions are the extent of our convos and I can see H is hurting. Rescuing him is not recommended so I wait. Patience is a learned virtue over here. Time will tell if/when H has endured enough and turns inward.
Yes. Absolutely. Depression can affect oneās mind is some wild ways. Forgetting events. Or denying events, which is more likely. Part of grief. In time, denial gives way and events are ārememberedā. Then those memories, events, etc can be processed.
Thank you for confirming that! He had me doubting my memory and insisting that I was gaslighting him. I know when my anxiety is high, I'll forget conversations, but I don't forget days...depression is a powerful thing!
Originally Posted by DnJ
XH is pretty unstable at the moment. Was the time in June an actual attempt at reconciliation? Perhaps. However, if it was it was likely throwing off course due to uncleās death. The mix up with your friend obviously pushed XH away as well.
Detachment still going.... it is rough, because the only way I can gauge how he's doing is by listening to his voice when he calls. The last two calls he sounded downright exhausted. All small talk, but he's still trying to keep in touch.
Originally Posted by DnJ
I'd not say itās thrown in the trash. XH has slide back. And you have an opportunity to sort out your side of the street. Being a lighthouse for ...
I am very excited, but a little weary, because I have my first meeting with my new therapist tomorrow...my old one went to a new job and the clinic didn't get me a new one.... as well as my first grief counseling session! Thankfully I don't work on Tuesday, because man that is one intense digging day!
I appreciate your answering my questions... as someone who has never suffered from depression, but been raised around, over, and under it, I am trying to understand from their point of view.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
When you reflect on your MLC (if I can call it that),
From what I read about the differences between WAS and MLC, to me it seems more like I was a WAS. I am unconventional, and I was doing all the things my parents and society expected of me.. especially with taking his last name,
What did it feel like?
I felt like a caricature of myself. I missed pre-kids me. With XH/X gone all the time and/or on unpredictable schedules, we couldn't plan anything fun with him. I was freaking exhausted , overwhelmed, and bored being a SAHM... and I was frustrated because my partner-in-crime was MIA. When he was home, it was kids, then bed. No affection... I mean I would have sufficed with a kiss on the forehead, but nothing. Sex was.. sex. It felt like a short routine chore. I felt like he had checked out out of our marriage.
What was your narrative?
I told him that I thought I was falling in love with OM. Hindsight, it was addiction. I didn't know a single thing about this guy, and I moved in with him immediately. I didn't feel it would be fair to either of them if I stayed at the house. I really thought EX/X didn't love me or want me anymore.
What did you 'get' from the OM? What did he provide?
OM gave me attention and made me feel seen... something I was desperate for! Looking back, it felt like an amped up version of XH/H premarital/kids life... the big awakening was when I agreed to get married and try for kids.... I literally woke up one day and said WHAT AM I DOING!?! I didn't want to do that the first time... why am I doing it again, especially with this guy! So I put a stop to it all. But, instead of running for the hills, I started veeerrry slowly physically detaching. Moved to a different room..moved to different apartment in building, moved in with my parents, moved to new building.
This is petty, but one thing that I'm sad to admit is that Im jealous that my XH/X is having "fun" with his OW. My OM wasn't able to... he was able to hide it for months by saying he wanted to be married first. Hence the engagement...despite how awful those years were, I learned to not trust people blindly, I learned to say no, and I learned to start fending for myself again...
Why did you feel that you could/should have a different relationship from your M?
In regards to my R with XH/X post-OM, I didn't feel the pressure of being legally bound to someone like I did when we were M. XH/X and I almost started where we left off, routine feeling sexual encounters. Over time it got better and better, to pre-kids intimacy... but then money anxiety kicked in on his side again, and my terror that he would bail again ramped up... this time he did tell me straight out he wasn't attracted to me anymore. But on the flip-side he was really putting in the effort all those years to be the husband I had wanted him to be, even after he started up with OW.
With (what I now know as) his depression, he somehow managed to parcel out the two aspects of the relationship... being present & affectionate side, from the sexual. I always joked that I felt like his mistress... to myself! Things were starting to get closer to a more typical R, when a few things happened at once... I finally got over my guilt for leaving, and told him full out how I felt for him... this is about the time the trapped comment came about and that he wanted to be in a relationship with me or anyone else, but couldn't. He never actually explained what he meant by that at the time, so I thought it was in a he was scared to way... later I found out it was a "your leaving messed me up pretty bad". Vague, but gave a bit more insight on why he couldn't. With that separation of those two aspects in his mind, I'm guessing it just seemed logical that he'd keep being a great "husband" to me, while carrying on with OW.
The second was finding out he had the defective heart valve. Two years ago, he figured he had 15-20 years, now he's stuck in his head like it's going to happen tomorrow. I mean, he's convinced that he wants to die alone on the farm. With his skewed sense of time, maybe he thinks it's closer than it is? He hadn't seen the specialist last time we had talked about it, so there's no proof that it's going to happen soon.
Then, I ask you what you learned through your MLC? The years before your H's MLC were not wasted years. What have the years refined? What have you learned about yourself? What remains a mystery?
Through the years I learned that I had SO much to learn! The man I knew now was not the same from before... we were growing back together, then his MLC started. I have not bolted, despite my natural reaction to want to. Comparing things he's said to things OM said to me, I am certain OM was going through MLC when we got together. I was 30, he was 45. I just attributed it at the time to his end-stage of his alcoholism, but I'm thinking it was both. I think this has helped me detach from XH/H, because this is becoming way too familiar! That being said, I think that my experience with WAS/MLC gives me a hope that if he can finally get the help he needs (he had said he had been depressed most his life), then we could grow back together stronger as individuals, and as a couple. I'm taking this time to FINALLY get the help I need for my baggage car of traumas... they go waaaay back before XH/H was in the picture (Dad was military PTSD/MLCer, Mom was Schizophrenic/Depressed... but that's for the therapist and the grief councilor to work with me on, not here... š).
It is so hard for me to detach, because XH/X had said that after I left, he felt like I treated him like someone that he used to know. The mystery to me in all of this is how he would rather see me with someone else and be my friend than lose me. During his leave me alone rants, I asked him if he remembers why he stuck around me, even though I had left him.... his tone sure changed for the rest of the conversation.
I think the biggest lesson I learned is that I can live without him, but I really don't want to. Do I deserve better? Yes. Am I willing to stick it out until we both come out of the oven and see if our dough stuck together? YES! I know there is a slim chance we might make it work, he's worth the risk. š
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
I'm a trained trauma child therapist. Untreated trauma keeps the brain in a fight-flight mode constantly. So the short answer is yes, chunks of time or rewriting history could be happening. Also, trauma causes a ", filter", so when the limbic system ( down stairs brain) has taken over, executive functioning (upstairs brain) isn't getting those messages, processing info stops ,or higher order tasks don't get completed. Basically, when the limbic system / amygdala(downstairs brain) overrides everything- the cycle needs to be completed before the upstairs brain can process the input.
The key to getting the limbic system to cycle with the least amount of damage is to: help teach /prompt relaxation skills , distraction skills, increase emotional awareness, reward positive behaviors, reassurance, patience, use kind words .
Does this sound familiar?
Last edited by PamCakes; 08/19/2507:32 PM. Reason: Clarified with qualifier
There are many similarities in the LBS and in the MLC script. For this reason, I asked you questions that I imagine would help you better understand what H is possibly enduring.
It sounds to me like your experience was rooted in years of exhaustion, unmet needs and feeling unseen. As you thought through the questions/answers, did they give you reason to pause? Did you consider that H may respond to the questions in the same way? similar way?
One thing that I've learned about midlife crisis is that it often looks like chaos and contradictions. H can pull close, push away, seem lost, and make choices that don't make sense. Choices that are exactly the opposite of who H was. It's not about you - it's about his inner turmoil. His inner battle. Change. Oddly something my H has always resisted is change and now he's changed so much that he is unrecognizable to me.
You seem to be wrestling with wanting to detach, believing that detaching is the right step forward, and seeing hope in detaching. It makes sense, as I was once in your shoes. At first, detaching is counterintuitive and certainly the opposite of how you've likely been through the years. Trust that the cost of holding on and not detaching is very high. Your nervous system will exhaust and you'll find yourself riding his rollercoaster of emotions.
Originally Posted by Un
The second was finding out he had the defective heart valve. Two years ago, he figured he had 15-20 years, now he's stuck in his head like it's going to happen tomorrow. I mean, he's convinced that he wants to die alone on the farm. With his skewed sense of time, maybe he thinks it's closer than it is? He hadn't seen the specialist last time we had talked about it, so there's no proof that it's going to happen soon.
Figuring him out is not possible while he's in crisis. Yet, normal to want to. I will tell you that answers don't come for a long time. It would be more helpful to you if you focus on why you feel however you feel. Work through your feelings.
He doesn't know what is going on. He doesn't know why things are changing. And, if he hasn't figured it out, how could you or someone else? You can't do his work for him. He needs to work through things that only he can face. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to give someone what they ask for. His words and actions are asking for space. Luckily for you, holding space doesn't mean waiting around or pausing your life. And, we're back to detaching.
And chasing or pushing him to face things at a pace he's not ready for will only make him run faster and further. Learned this the hard way on many occasions through H's crisis.
Originally Posted by Un
It is so hard for me to detach, because XH/X had said that after I left, he felt like I treated him like someone that he used to know.
I'm not convinced that you are having a hard time detaching because H said something.
Holding space and detaching doesn't mean losing yourself. You take care of yourself. Live your life to its fullest. Take care of your emotions by detaching. Keep - perhaps it's more like establish than keep - your boundaries strong. Enjoy the things that bring you peace.
It's a long and confusing road so I love that you're getting help for yourself. Find a good therapist. Gain your strength back while he's off in lala land.
And lastly, I'd like you to give thought to the last of the questions you answered.
Originally Posted by Un
Then, I ask you what you learned through your MLC? The years before your H's MLC were not wasted years. What have the years refined? What have you learned about yourself? What remains a mystery?
Through the years I learned that I had SO much to learn! The man I knew now was not the same from before... we were growing back together, then his MLC started. I have not bolted, despite my natural reaction to want to. Comparing things he's said to things OM said to me, I am certain OM was going through MLC when we got together. I was 30, he was 45....
Your response has a bit of focus on "The man I knew". What about Un and what you knew about Un?
Sooo.... I'll respond to your questions when I have a better chance to think them through, I promise!
Bizarre touch 'n go this morning!!! Day 21 of detaching.... he calls every 3 days, and I've only called him once. He called to say that he was going to call an HVAC company near me to book an appointment, but stopped himself because he realized it might be overstepping bounds. He then went on to say that WE (?!?) might want to do this that and the other with the house, and I very firmly stated what I intended to do about this that and the other. "Well, I figured we could use my line of credit to pay for....". I very firmly told him to use his line of credit to get the dream camper van that he wants to get. I am so proud of myself for not adding "You know, the one that you had to keep passing up on because of us!" He didn't skip a beat and said that he's at a job site (huh, back to reporting his whereabouts...), and there's one near the site that he wants to get a price on. He also tested the waters about coming out here to visit by making a comment about not driving out here JUST to bring space heaters... I gave up weeks ago on him ever mailing the birth certificates and quilt... I'm still flabbergasted by the whole exchange!
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
It is so hard for me to detach, because XH/X had said that after I left, he felt like I treated him like someone that he used to know.
I'm not convinced that you are having a hard time detaching because H said something.
I should clarify that I've had no trouble holding firm with my detaching, I'm just having a hard time internally dealing with the emotions that come with it. I had my first grief counseling session last night, and she said the same thing the therapist said... everything comes back to him. I need to properly grieve him, and start incorporating more GAL routines and spontaneous fun... apparently working 6 days a week at my business doesn't count in that.... (I'm being facetious with that š).
Originally Posted by MamaG
And lastly, I'd like you to give thought to the last of the questions you answered.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
Then, I ask you what you learned through your MLC? The years before your H's MLC were not wasted years. What have the years refined? What have you learned about yourself? What remains a mystery?
Through the years I learned that I had SO much to learn! The man I knew now was not the same from before... we were growing back together, then his MLC started. I have not bolted, despite my natural reaction to want to. Comparing things he's said to things OM said to me, I am certain OM was going through MLC when we got together. I was 30, he was 45....
Your response has a bit of focus on "The man I knew". What about Un and what you knew about Un?
It was kind of hidden in that answer, but I learned to not bolt at the first sign of trouble... other than that I learned to appreciate the efforts he was putting in to being a good partner. I learned to enjoy the space (physical & emotional) I had as precious, but still share it with him. I learned that I had found myself again, I just needed to adjust self expectations and learn self compassion.
The last part was HUGE for me, as the guilt I carried prevented me from expressing my needs and desires. As my one friend has put it, self awareness, self-confidence, and self care aren't an issue with me... it's self worth. I don't see myself through other people's eyes, and undervalue myself. I think I'm pretty cool and look pretty dang good for my age, but it always surprises me when I find out other people think so to.
That ties back to expressing my needs and desires... if I ask for what I need or desire, I might be surprised to find that there's someone who's able to meet them.... I may know what I'm looking for, but people aren't mind readers, and I shouldn't hesitate to ask.
What remains a mystery to me is why he has compartmentalized being a good partner to me from the sexual side of a relationship... this goes back to the start of our reconnection. He rationalizes it as not being in a relationship with either one of us, when he's realistically in one with both of us.. not me anymore, he just hasn't clued in yet despite me texting that the friendship he wants with me is what a marriage is like when the initial passion and excitement evens out, and until he realizes this, we can't be friends. Hence the bizarre touch 'n go this morning... details in separate post...
Last edited by DnJ; 08/22/2501:43 PM. Reason: Corrected quoting syntax. Added some line spacing.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
Just reread this and for clarity sake again.... reconnecting after I left, not now.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
Called just now... sending a text to work as he called. Wanted to know if I knew what a charge on his card was for. He was going to text the question, but didn't want it to come across the wrong way. Asked how things are going, I told him good. He asked me how the store was doing, I said really well. He asked if we were getting out and doing stuff, I said of course. He said more importantly, are the boys getting out and doing stuff... I said that we're all good here. Long pause, and then he said OK, well, as you were. Bye.... I said OK, bye and hung up first.
How did I do, guys? I used my normal voice when I answered the questions, not my ice princess tone.
Should I have asked him how he was? It's weird being so short with him.
I didn't get defensive about the more importantly question... I guess he's not worried about my sanity anymore...lol. Still calling me instead of the boys, though. I hate how easy he can mask, especially with his overconfident tone, and try to get the upper hand. Much different approach from last call, no tail between his legs tone like last time.
Also, not spiraling into analyzing the call. Thanks to this board, I can see it for what it is... temperature check, and a different move in the dance.
Our only day off, so getting some rest... some gardening and cleaning, and some cooking. I love cooking, so trying new recipes, and making some ready to go meals for the week. I wasn't lying about the GAL'ing... we went out for milkshakes yesterday, trying to get walks in if the weather cooperates and we aren't too tired.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
You did well with the unexpected call. And you are correct, itās a temp check by H. Just him checking in, seeing how/what youāre doing. H trying to keep you on the hook.
Good on you, not being on the shelf where he left you. Not sitting there pinning away over him.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
I hate how easy he can mask, especially with his overconfident tone, and try to get the upper hand.
Yep. They certainly do that.
These hurt folks expend incredible energies into maintaining their fantasy, their mask. Iād bet H took quite a while to work up to calling you.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
Should I have asked him how he was? It's weird being so short with him.
I think you did fine.
Itās not you being short with him, itās you being succinct.
Kind and cordial.
Being friendly, but not friends. For your friends donāt treat you that way.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
Our only day off, so getting some rest... some gardening and cleaning,and some cooking. I love cooking, so trying new recipes, and making some ready to go meals for the week. I wasn't lying about the GAL'ing... we went out for milkshakes yesterday, trying to get walks in if the weather cooperates and we aren't too tired.
Perfect!
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
At what point will I be able to open private messages? I apologize to whomever sent me one... not able to read it yet. š
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
The private messaging feature is turned off for the site. Anonymity of users is high importance given the situations discussed here.
(BTW, the mail icon blinks for everyone. A weird default when messaging is deactivated.)
Also to note - as per the forum rules - sharing name, address, phone number, email, or other personal identification/contact information is not allowed.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
It sounds like you handled the call really well by keeping your tone steady and not falling into an icy or defensive attitude. Using your normal voice helped keep the conversation calm and neutral, which is important when dealing with someone who might be trying to gauge the situation or push buttons subtly. Not getting defensive about the "more importantly" question shows strength and emotional control, and itās a positive step since it feels like he no longer doubts your well-being.
Itās understandable to feel unsure about being brief or not asking how he was, but itās perfectly okay to maintain boundaries, especially if the dynamic has been tense or manipulative in the past. Sometimes keeping the interaction focused and short is a way to protect your peace. The fact that heās still calling you and not the boys, combined with his overconfident tone, suggests he may be testing or trying to assert controlārecognizing this as a "temperature check" rather than something more significant shows great insight.
On your day off, focusing on rest, gardening, and cooking is a wonderful way to nurture yourself and your family. Enjoying activities like trying new recipes and getting outdoors can really help maintain balance and positivity. It sounds like youāre doing a great job managing the situation with awareness and self-care, which is really important in navigating complex relationships.
Last edited by DnJ; 08/29/2501:47 PM. Reason: Deleted link to external website.
Ahhh... that's a relief... thank you for explaining, DnJ!
Last edited by Unbeatab; 08/29/2511:28 PM.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
A few things that are bothering me.... during the post last visit period, XH/X admitted he misses intimacy (Mama G, you had asked about if I had thought about how he felt in our marriage... I'm guessing that was it). Specifically inside jokes and personal things we'd say to each other to flirt. Because of his memory/denial issues, I had texted the following a few months ago (which he of course called as soon as he could to ask me if I was ok)
"There is no one else. There never has been (OM was my midlife crisis major mistake, and lordy kharma was a bitch!), and there never will be. In my entire life, I have never met anyone like you. There is no substitute. There is no one who has even come close. I have sat by for the last 8 years listening to you go on about all the women you wanted to date and screw, and felt so ashamed and unworthy to imagine that you'd ever want me, that I gave you advise, and pushed my love for you deep down.... I've always wanted you to be happy, it's just I've always wanted you to be happy with me! After 27 years I am still in love with you... I still get all the butterflies and sexual attraction (it's funny, because if it's possible, you've continually gotten hotter over time) like I always have! However you decide when you come out of all of this, never question who my mind, body, and soul belong to! I'm yours.... I'm not trying to pressure you, I'm not trying to guilt you, I'm simply giving you the facts. Do with them what you will. I'm writing this so that you have a hard copy that you can refer to when you doubt me and my feelings."
I think I've been too focused on the sexual aspect, since OW seems to be PA only, and that had been taken away from me. I had also left a little note for him at the start of that trip that was intimate and mentioned one of our inside jokes. He gets flustered and defensive with any support messages or anything sexual, but anything that is teasing or flirty he'll slip a reference in when he talks with me.
I'm aware that detaching is crucial, but I'm worried that in my case being succinct is going to push him further and further away. My intuition is telling me to be more teasing.... I sent this text a few days ago to show I'm still here. Otherwise, I've only called him once in the last month.
M: Happy Labour Day XH/X: Same, you doing lots of labour? M: Sleep, wrangling the boys up to go outside and BBQ. How about you? XH/X: Work right now, doing the local fair with someone I support M: Nice
Do I go back to incorporating a more teasing tone when he communicates? He does, and I've just been giving flat answers. Keep in mind, he calls me around twice a week, while I don't call at all. I plan to keep not calling, but it seems if that's what was missing in R for him, shouldn't I be working on bringing that back? I hadn't been intimate like that because of the reasoning in my note above.... suggestions?
My other thing is, do I have him come up here? Last time was so wonderful, only to have him forget/deny it... he's strongly implying that he wants to come up, and I think having a day or two of happiness would be good for him. I just have to remember to enjoy it for what it is...a happy moment and nothing more. This gives him a chance to be comfortable, and maybe he shares more of what he saw wrong with us.
I also want him to ask. Do I just flat out tell him if he wants to know if he can come here, all he's got to do is ask? Communication was never our strong suite, and I've let go of my fear of being vulnerable... he's been more communicative with his insecurities, but as he's so deep in crisis, it depends on the emotion he's riding on at the time what he shares. Also, I had said at one point that he couldn't come up here if he was still with OW but then flip flopped on it in a support text. It seems to me I'm punishing him for my inability to accept his current sleeping arrangements.
With going dark on my side, it just seems to be more of what he said was missing. I'm so conflicted!!!!!
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
Iād stick to the path. Focus on you and your life. H needs to feel the loss and decide for his reasons to alter his path (ie OW).
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
ā¦during the post last visit period, XH/X admitted he misses intimacy
This is a start of him feeling the loss. It is also H dropping breadcrumbs and seeing/watching you scoop them up.
Temp checks, breadcrumbs, etc. The more H sees, feels, believes, you are sitting on the shelf for him the less āreasonā there is for him to alter course.
The big text from a few months ago illustrated you are waiting for him. In my opinion, thatās not the message you want to convey to foster the best chance for H to get his act together. I mean there is little reason for him to change anything.
Now donāt fret, no one thing you do, or do not do, is going to make or break this situation. There is no magic bullet here. Consistent behaviour is key.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
I'm aware that detaching is crucial, but I'm worried that in my case being succinct is going to push him further and further away. My intuition is telling me to be more teasing....
Most times our intuition is not the best course. After all, intuition likely got you into this in the first place. Hence the counter-intuitiveness of it all.
That being said, do more of what works and less of what doesnāt. You are always free to attempt something. However, first ensure you consider what you are efforting to achieve, what result would be a positive step forward. If what you try works, great. If it doesnāt, do not try it again for a good long while.
Also, ābutā. Most times the usage of the word ābutā is one justifying doing something they know/feel is incorrect or less than optimal.
In this case, you feel continuing being succinct will push H away. Realize you do not control H, only you. Your thoughts, actions, and reactions. H is likely to, likely needs to, move further away before he may decide to turn back regardless.
Therefore, the best communication is where you donāt push or pull H at all. Just letting him decide, and live the consequences.
Also:
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
he's so deep in crisis, it depends on the emotion he's riding on at the time
Yep. Be it a phone call, a text, a plan to pick up the kids, a two day visit, etc. A MLCerās emotional state will color their world. And their emotions can and do change all the time, and at the drop of a hat.
Besides:
Originally Posted by Unneatab
Also, I had said at one point that he couldn't come up here if he was still with OW but then flip flopped on it in a support text. It seems to me I'm punishing him for my inability to accept his current sleeping arrangements.
Boundaries need to be rock solid. No flip flopping.
Itās perfectly reasonable that as long as H is involved with OW, he is not involved with you. So, no having/inviting him to come up and join you.
(By the way, thatās bargaining. The last vestiges of you trying to feel the āoldā normal. Perfectly normal part of grief. Once you let go the attempts of regaining the āoldā youāll head toward depression and then acceptance.)
Realize you are not punishing H. Is it punishing to H? Perhaps. However, thatās on him. His bed. Let him lay in it. Allow him to choose a better path.
Be the lighthouse.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Not sure if anyone has discussed this yet, but what do you differently when dealing with a narcissist going through MLC? Different coping/DBing with overt vs covert? Or do you do the work to heal, and don't look back?
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
Please stick to one thread. It keeps things clearer and easier for folks following along.
MLCers do tend to become narcissistic. They are so absorbed, consumed, by their pain and torment, by their running from it. They lack empathy. Their running is about them. Their emotions are cranked to eleven and they simply have no bandwidth for anything or anyone else.
Are they narcissists? Or more a symptom of the crisis they are lost within?
For those true narcissists, itās another personality characteristic for them to work through on top of everything else.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
Different coping/DBing with overt vs covert?
Not really. Your DBing, your coping will be the same.
MLC is highly covert. They suffer an internal struggle with their demons. The cause of which they do not even realize, never mind understand. Their progression is glacially slow and internal.
Their running behaviour usually becomes quite overt. There are two types here: wallower and the highly energetic ones. The wallowers are more sullen and will brood and more display that all-present consuming depression. The energetic type burns the candle at both ends. More continually showing how great and wonderful their life is.
It is a spectrum of course, just being how overtly and far one leans towards whichever end of the scale. Most MLCers settle into ātheirā pattern, remaining such for their journey.
The type of running behaviour is separate from their energy level. Spending, drinking, drugs, fast cars, fast partners, affairs, shoplifting, theft, illegal and illicit activities, and so on. Again, a spectrum. How far they āneedā to go depends upon the person and their pains, past, coping skills, etc.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
Or do you do the work to heal, and don't look back?
It is always best to do your inner work. Become the best you possible.
āand donāt look back?ā The past is immutable. Unchangeable. Look forward. Like a car, the windshield is far bigger than the rear view mirror for a reason, for thatās the direction youāre going.
The future is full of possibilities. Itās where hope lives. Where healed and whole lives. Where happiness and joy awaits.
Live your present moment. Fully. That requires some looking back, and some looking/planning forward. Slowly you accept your past. Slowly you pull your desired future forward. Slowly your present changes. The joy and happiness, the whole and heal, becomes the now. Living and loving life.
You will look back at times. Itās ok. Itās your past and lots of good lessons/wisdom there. Just donāt get lost going down memory road.
You will look forward at times. Itās ok. Thatās where youāre heading. Figure out your headings and work towards them.
Live the present moment. Be grounded in the here and now. The past is immutable, the future aināt here yet, the present is all you got. Embrace it.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I ask because after several intense therapy sessions, it has been brought to light that I was raised by a covert narcissist.. and married one. EXH's brother is an overt narcissist, who emotionally abuses H (I've witnessed it, and it's heartbreaking!) and physically abused EXH as a child. So in saying don't look back, I mean how likely is a narcissist to truly going to want to change if they've found a fresh supply? How does this change the way you DB, if you decide to stand? I'm looking for advice from someone who has stood for one. The extra challenge is standing while working on changing your own narcissistic traits you've picked up... are you more likely to flub DBing? He stopped calling me at the end of August, so we're now at no contact... which means I have no idea what's going on with him. He's never really shown an interest in the boys, so the lack of communication with them is no surprise... if he did call them, it was to see how I was. They know to give him short answers when it comes to me. My mind is so much clearer now, and now I'm cycling through all the stages, but with my rose coloured glasses off. My compassion says wait it out, learn the skills I need to neutralize his power moves, in the meantime... and hold faith that he finds the strength to seek professional help. One positive is that everything I thought I knew about my/our past has shifted in perspective, and I have a lot of work to do on myself... so finding less and less time to worry about him.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
ā¦how likely is a narcissist to truly going to want to change if they've found a fresh supply?
Most people only change when the pain of not outweighs the pain of growth.
My experience is the vast majority of people do want change. They like being comfortable. Even positive change is balked at. Think software updates. Arggg. Not another one. I know and like how it works now. I donāt want to learn the new and improved stuff. (Of course, new and improved is questionable when considering software. At any rate, just illustrating.)
Change is more force upon than wanted. It is a rare person who looks to change and grow.
Originally Posted by Unneatab
How does this change the way you DB, if you decide to stand?
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
I was raised by a covert narcissist.. and married one.
DB in a nutshell. Your past relationship crashed and burned. If you both go back as is, things just repeat.
The LBS, usually being the more rational one, more willing one, does their inner work. Grows. Evolves. The spouse notices and becomes interested.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
I have a lot of work to do on myself... so finding less and less time to worry about him.
Absolutely. Yes.
Once you heal and grow, you will not want nor accept a narcissist as a partner. Youāll place a rock solid boundary and let the chips fall where they will.
Then, it is up to H to step up and change. Or not.
Youāre fine either way.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
The extra challenge is standing while working on changing your own narcissistic traits you've picked up... are you more likely to flub DBing?
I think with willingness to look inward, see yourself, youāll do fine. Most flubs come from emotional reactionary outbursts. You know that which you control. I believe youāve got a good handle on yourself.
Coupled with the rose-coloured glasses being off. You are seeing clearer. Keep walking the path.
You can only do your part in all this. Like the lighthouse, you shine. Yet, a stubborn captain could still ignore and crash upon the rocks.
Do the best you can on that which you can, and give the rest to God.
Hope youāre having a wonderful Sunday.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
So, was really touched at how many people were inspired to change their lives by the quote "If you can't love yourself, how the hell you gonna love somebody else?", and very stupidly thought it might be something I could share with him.So yes, did text it to him.
X: ??? Me: I hope you're taking care of yourself. X: (an hour and a half later) Yes for once Me: That's good. X: You?
I never replied. Super flub on my part for sending it! Learned my lesson... still our fault that his life is the way it is. No more texts. If he contacts us someday, I know for sure not to mention anything about his mental health... he was open to it before S2 moved in/Uncle's death happened... no more texts to let him know we're still here from now on.
Had a big shift in attitude towards the whole sitch last night, after having to pay someone to help remove a stubborn rusty nut from under the sink... furious that we're struggling while he's off living his easy peasy life... he mentioned awhile back that there was no effort required with his OW (if they are still together, they APPARENTLY have an understanding that they are not in a relationship), and at the same time he mentioned he's staying at his one job because it's easy. I don't have time for his poor me crap. Yes, today is an angry day... I'm just fed up and am taking initiative think like a single mom, and assume it's going to stay that way for quite a long time!
Huge shift in work sitch, so really don't have patience for much right now. Had to tell my unofficial business partner that I can't take over the store... so the boys and I are shooting out resumes left, right, and center! We're on our own now... he puts a tiny bit of money in the boys' accounts, but not enough to get desperately needed new clothes and they both have cell phones that should have been replaced years ago... it's not worth contacting him and hearing the self-importance in his voice that we need him... especially since he can turn on a dime and throw it back on us that it's a hassle.
I'm getting much better at not getting triggered by every 20-something looking female that I see and wondering "Is that what she looks like?" Less triggered by books (I've been moving Smut/Romance to a new place in the store for the last while, and the amount of "older man" stories is pretty noticeable), TV and movies.
I know it's only been a few months since the reconnection attempt got the huge derailment, but it honestly feels like forever. Going dark on my side was the best decision I've made, and at this point I'm kind of relieved that he hasn't called me... still hurts that he has no need for any sort of communication/relationship with the boys. I know if it doesn't bother them, it shouldn't bother me... but it does.
Onward and upwards it is for us!
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
Oh my yes. Working under a sink is one of my least favourite jobs. Laying on your back, on a shelf, very uncomfortable. Reaching upward into that small space. Arms going numb from being elevated. Knuckles skinned from scrapping on all the sharp bits and pieces.
Iām sorry to hear about your work/financial stress. Hoping that you all get positive replies to your resumes.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Went to get my hot choffee for my usual sunrise over the ocean gratitude ritual... the young fella not only flirted with me, but he didn't charge me for my drink AND also gave me a stamp so my next one is free too! I think is the first time that I didn't feel like I was manipulating someone.... I actually took it for the compliment it was! GALing sure does take some getting used to, but to have other people notice the different energy I'm putting out there is pretty cool!
Other co-owner filling in for us today, so made a luxurious breakfast for us and the boys and I sat at the table to eat it. We've decided that we're going to make that a regular occurrence. Going hiking later, maybe get some gardening and cleaning done.
Found a journal page last night that I had done when I was pregnant with S19... XH was claiming that my morning sickness was "convenient"... boy, that sure helped with the GALing today! It's amazing what you see with RCG off!
Last edited by Unbeatab; 09/20/2502:08 PM.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
So, update.... S (now 20!) had his birthday at the start of the week. The day before S17 received 3 texts from XH reminding us that it was S19's birthday the next day, and he sent money to make sure that we went out for dinner and got a cake. I texted that I appreciate that, and I sent him a picture of S20 eating his birthday meal, and then sent him a picture of the cake later. He then sent me a picture of the place where he was staying while working out of town for 3 days. He then joked about imagining living in a place where you get to wake up every day looking at a bay (I go every morning to the bay where I live to watch the sun rise).
I guess the no contact gave him some time to think.... yesterday he texted S17 to tell him he put money in so we could buy the stuff we need for Thanksgiving dinner. Again, texted my appreciation, and asked how his trip was. We then got into a conversation about his work... lengthy chunks on his side, short validating comments on my side. If he is still with OW, there really must not be anything between them other than sexual, because this is very much how his attempt at reconnection in June started. I'm at the point that I have no interest in knowing ewhether she's still in the picture or not. One of the comments he made was that someone had to go back to finish the job, and it would probably be him because the other guys have families at home.
For me for the last while, I've been cycling through anger, withdrawl, and depression in shorter bouts... and with being in contact again, I've finally gotten to acceptance. I think this is because I know he's OK. I don't wait around for him to contact me, but it's nice when he does. Nice in a hearing from someone you haven't talked to in a while kind of way, not emotional. For an emote like me, this is HUGE! His loneliness isn't affecting me anymore. I'm not freaking out when his name pops up on my phone. Leaving him to initiate contact, and not sharing anything about what we're up to here. I think I'm finally getting a hang on detaching!!!
I'm at peace again, and I'm focusing on the boys and I. S17 and I went on a 2 day road trip a week ago... the scenery was beautiful!
Very excited, because now that fall/winter hours have begun at work, we have 3 days off a week! We've created a sourdough starter named Audrey, and I'm going to be spending more time teaching the boys life and social skills. Way more time for cooking, walks, and gardening...and we are all going to learn how to bake and do home repairs.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
For me for the last while, I've been cycling through anger, withdrawl, and depression in shorter bouts... and with being in contact again, I've finally gotten to acceptance. I think this is because I know he's OK. I don't wait around for him to contact me, but it's nice when he does. Nice in a hearing from someone you haven't talked to in a while kind of way, not emotional. For an emote like me, this is HUGE! His loneliness isn't affecting me anymore. I'm not freaking out when his name pops up on my phone. Leaving him to initiate contact, and not sharing anything about what we're up to here. I think I'm finally getting a hang on detaching!!!
Yes, it sounds like you are detached pretty well. Nice when our emotions arenāt dragging us all over the place, isnāt it.
These situations, this grief, is multi-faceted. There are many bits and pieces. As time goes on we put them together much like a jigsaw puzzle. Slowly building/rebuilding ourselves in the process.
At bomb drop, everything was new, we are in utter shock, and every piece starts in denial. We only have a certain amount of bandwidth and time and resources, and as such grief happens piecemeal-wise. A few facets/items getting our attention and progression at a time.
Months (years) in, some of those bits/facets have indeed progressed to acceptance, others are in the stage of anger, others bargaining, others we are depressed about, and still more lay unknown in denial. Perfectly normal this spread across the grief process; only so much time and bandwidth.
This is why we move between stages; experience setbacks, backslides, and such. Theyāre not really backslides, just seems like it as another piece comes to the fore. Slowly, more and more facets become accepted.
Therefore to assess, or state where one is within grief is difficult. For all the time after the initial shock until full acceptance we are within multiple stages. In fact, we are within all stages for most of the time until that last ābitā leaves denial and starts progressing. Thus, as a rule of thumb, where one is experiencing the bulk of their processing - realizing we are experiencing all stages - is where one is along their grief path.
To compound the stages of grief - or maybe companion the stages is more apt - is detachment, indifference, and the return of your feelings.
I do believe you have found detachment and are entering indifference. Ah, indifference, a time when our feelings toward our spouse are greatly attenuated or numbed. You recognized how you can hear from H, and are non-emotional. Detached and indifferent.
Indifference brings a wonderful peace with it. Make the most of this temporary numbness. This is truly a golden opportunity, a time when you can dig deep within yourself and discover your deeply held beliefs and values, while free from the cacophony of H and his behaviours.
After categorizing your convictions and biases and prejudices. Strengthen that which serves. Craft that which inspires. Discard or alter that which does not, or no longer, serves.
I also will pass on a caution. While indifferent, other feelings will loom larger than they really. Other feelings will seem very large against the void of what once was. This is a time of temptations. Remember, decisions made based on emotions lead to regret. This time of unfeeling is temporary.
Indifference, like all feelings, does flit. It does unwind. The numbness retreats. The old feelings, the old love, does return. However, for those who have done the inner work, made the most of their golden opportunity, this unwinding is not a big deal. In fact, the feelings returning gives substance to oneās immutable past. Thus, more a companion along the journey, rather than compounding it.
When indifference unwinds, grief takes another palpable hit. That unfeeling provided relief. Made it seem or feel we were further along in our grief than we are. Oddly, that return, that hit, provides a boosts to our progress. Usually jump starting oneās realization and exiting of bargaining. Their āacceptanceā that the old normal is gone and they must embrace their new normal. And thus ushering in depression.
Itās a strange thing when acceptance happens. It just kind of appears. The dark depression slowly gives way. No big fan-fare. No real warning. One day you just kind of realize it. You hear birds again. You see colors again. The world is not the gray as it has seemed. Youāve worked through those facets.
Donāt fret over it. Grief lasts as long as it does. It will end when it will, and not one second earlier. Itās hard to believe, yet time really is a gift.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
I'm at peace again, and I'm focusing on the boys and I. S17 and I went on a 2 day road trip a week ago... the scenery was beautiful!
Very excited, because now that fall/winter hours have begun at work, we have 3 days off a week! We've created a sourdough starter named Audrey, and I'm going to be spending more time teaching the boys life and social skills. Way more time for cooking, walks, and gardening...and we are all going to learn how to bake and do home repairs.
Wonderful stuff!
An excellent investment of that gift of time.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
OK, so it seems acceptance just became another spot in cycling... but at least it's part of the rotation now. I'm guessing as time goes on, there'll be more days of acceptance and less of the depression, sadness, anger....? For example, yesterday and today I am sad and wish I could just hold him in my arms to comfort him. I had a few hours of depression, but it's mostly just been a general sadness about how lost he is. For me the difference between sadness and depression is the ability to function... sadness is that surface feeling as you go about your day, but your brain isn't murky. Depression is laying in bed all day, obsessively thinking about it all.
Made some half decent goods with Audrey, made pancakes a few days in a row and they got better each time. Working on a buttermilk honey biscuit recipe, but for health reasons they're full multigrain. Have to tweak a few more things, but I think I'm almost there! The boys and I did some more gardening today... nice days for it between rain, now that we're in autumn.
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
... and today back to acceptance and detachment! All while not GALing, just getting some rest. I think there is a benefit to mulling things over while in detachment, as it kind of gives you a chance to look at and react to past and future scenarios that may come up without pressure. Of course, I'm saying this as someone with ADHD and autistic traits. It gives me great comfort to prepare, even if the outcome may not be anything I was ready for. It gives me a chance to prepare relatively non-emotion-based responses.
The next three days are chock-full of GALing, and I am ready for them! I am beginning a really cool 3 week program that explores self-development, and the boys and I are attending some great business events... including a breakfast! We are still waiting to hear if we got the space for our business... keep your fingers crossed!!!
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
Came to read up on your sitch since you so kindly responded to mine. Isn't it just so odd how some days you can feel okay and accepting while the next might be full of sadness. I, too, stay cycling back and forth between the two. It's so hard, but you got this. I'm happy you have the next few days full of GAL-ing. Fingers crossed for your business space. That sounds so exciting!!
It's funny that you mention the caution of being in indifference.... I am feeling that pull.... I'm going out to see a band tonight, and am tired and lonely. Tired and lonely enough that any flirting could easily get out of hand. The interesting thing is that we experience the exact same states as our MLCers, we just call it something different for our side of the fence. Realistically, same thing except our heads are a bit clearer. What a great time for the LBS to journal their thoughts and feelings to use to put themselves in their MLCer's shoes!!! To even get a small taste of what they are up against... and it reminds us why detachment is so important.... you have your own (involuntary) LBS Crisis to handle! You just have better tools to work with than they do.
DnJ, I have the good fortune of being divorced for so long, and having this go round to take the time to do the dating thing if that's what I really want. And that's the kicker there, if that's what I logically (not emotionally) want to do. Like the MLCer, you'll more than likely be reminded the grass isn't always greener...and if your cognizant enough, take it for the ego boost it is and nothing more... or maybe you find someone who naturally meets your expectations for a relationship.
I have no responsibility reason for standing, other than the fact that I choose to love him. The only tangible thing we share are the kids, and they have never been an emotional priority for him... so I am leaving my future open to all possibilities... but I know no matter what, I will come out stronger and a better person for all the love and experiences , good and bad, we've shared.
For those wondering about going dark, I'd liken it more to having a dimmer switch than an on/off switch. Use it as it fits your current situation... for my situation, he understands what I need for myself when I tell him I'm going dark. It shows that I haven't abandoned him, but that contact is draining me and like he does, I need my space.
Last time, I instinctively and somewhat involuntarily went dark... I just wish I had known then what I know now about his chronic depression... that he even had it.... and I could've taken his coping mechanisms much less personally and stayed the course! When I left, so much time was devoted to dealing with the OM's nonsense that I didn't have time for worrying about much else. So when we reconnected several years later, X had, DESPITE the depression, put what energy he could into being a better partner. He felt the loss... and staying in contact when you are able to detach is so important because that is all they can offer you in return... that's why the lighthouse analogy is so spot on... the ship knows the lighthouse is there, but the captain isn't at the controls. The light from the lighthouse isn't always pointed in the ship's direction, but when it is it can save lives. Send out that occasional beam of light to show them where you are... it really does mean the world to them!
Sorry to wax philosophical... one of those days! I've got my girl empowerment playlist on the ready for when I get ready to GAL tonight... wouldn't be much fun to be around going with my mood as is! š
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
It's funny that you mention the caution of being in indifference.... I am feeling that pull.... I'm going out to see a band tonight, and am tired and lonely. Tired and lonely enough that any flirting could easily get out of hand. The interesting thing is that we experience the exact same states as our MLCers, we just call it something different for our side of the fence. Realistically, same thing except our heads are a bit clearer. What a great time for the LBS to journal their thoughts and feelings to use to put themselves in their MLCer's shoes!!! To even get a small taste of what they are up against... and it reminds us why detachment is so important.... you have your own (involuntary) LBS Crisis to handle! You just have better tools to work with than they do.
Don't be so quick to lump in your behavior as typical LBS behavior - it is not. Sure - dressing nice and receiving compliments is one thing, but admitting you are lonely enough to let things get out of hand... sounds like a pattern you are repeating from what you tell us.
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
DnJ, I have the good fortune of being divorced for so long, and having this go round to take the time to do the dating thing if that's what I really want. And that's the kicker there, if that's what I logically (not emotionally) want to do. Like the MLCer, you'll more than likely be reminded the grass isn't always greener...and if your cognizant enough, take it for the ego boost it is and nothing more... or maybe you find someone who naturally meets your expectations for a relationship.
See it here. You came here in August and by October is already talking about dating? Sure you can be mad at your XH for actually acting on it - but the problem lies with why you both jump to those thoughts to begin with
Originally Posted by Unbeatab
Last time, I instinctively and somewhat involuntarily went dark... I just wish I had known then what I know now about his chronic depression... that he even had it.... and I could've taken his coping mechanisms much less personally and stayed the course! When I left, so much time was devoted to dealing with the OM's nonsense that I didn't have time for worrying about much else. So when we reconnected several years later, X had, DESPITE the depression, put what energy he could into being a better partner. He felt the loss... and staying in contact when you are able to detach is so important because that is all they can offer you in return... that's why the lighthouse analogy is so spot on... the ship knows the lighthouse is there, but the captain isn't at the controls. The light from the lighthouse isn't always pointed in the ship's direction, but when it is it can save lives. Send out that occasional beam of light to show them where you are... it really does mean the world to them!
I'm confused with this. You had a 6 year relationship with you affair partner. I'm not sure why he stuck around but I don't think it's because you were being a lighthouse.
From what you are describing - this seems like a pattern that you both continually play into. I know you gave reasons to MG why you guys didn't remarry - but it doesn't sound like you worked out what happened either. Not as a couple nor individuals.
Patterns will continue until one of you is strong enough to change it. What are you willing to do?
M(f): 43 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
You are šÆ spot on! Which is exactly why I've changed my stance on standing only.... IF we were to get back together, there would have to be tonnes of things we'd have to work on together. 27 years of growing with and around each other without external guidance takes it's toll.
I joined in August, but he's been in crisis for AT least 2 years. His clinging tendencies, our severe inability to communicate openly with each other, and our individual untreated traumas and insecurities prevented me from seeing the situation for what it was until recently... I am willing to put in the time and effort to see if we can work on being in a proper mature and fulfilling relationship. But I am also open to the idea that we may never get to that point.
The work that I've started on myself is allowing me to develop self-worth, and to explore the idea that I was in a toxic situation. Should I deprive myself of a chance to experience a healthy relationship with someone else, so that I can be a stand up gal for a relationship where we might truly be unable to meet each others needs, as has been exhibited in the past?
This is why I am considering casual dating... and at the same time leaving the door open to future reconciliation.... I have begun implementing boundaries I never would have dared state in the past, for fear he would leave me. I, and eventually we, will have knowledge and tools available to us that we never knew existed.... AND our individual growth and experience, to form healthy bonds and behaviours with each other. We've been dependent on each other since we started dating fresh out of highschool, and now we are at a place where we are able to grow separately. I certainly wasn't a lighthouse back then, but understanding what I do now, I may not be able to stand for a romantic relationship, but I can stand to redefine and strengthen our friendship. DBing and detaching has afforded me the chance to flesh out a bright future for myself, no matter the outcome.
Last edited by Unbeatab; 10/26/2507:25 PM. Reason: Text changed for emphasis
Me 45 XH/X 47 T27 M9 S1-19 S2-17
My WAW OM EA BD 2009 MI w OM 2009 D 2010 R w OM 2009-2010 Detach OM 2010-Jan 2017 R w XH 2016 to 2024 BD 1 Not attracted Oct 2024 BD 2 His PA w 27yo OW March 2025
